Doug Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Hi all, Does anyone know when Vought phased out Salmon Pink Primer and replaced it with chromate Yellow/Green - Interior Green primer on the F4U Corsairs? Cheers. Doug S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Bell Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) Hi Doug, The orders to drop Indian Red from the second primer coat came in April 1943, though I expect it took a few months to deplete existing stocks of paint and pre-primed parts. Vought's paperwork certainly caught up in August, when Indian Red was eliminated from the finish specs. At the same time that the Navy ordered the deletion of Indian Red, Vought proposed a "yellow-zinc-chromate-only" primer. If the metal was Alclad, one coat of yellow zinc chromate would do the job. If the metal was any other alloy, the manufacturers would apply one coat of yellow zinc chromate, stamp it with the words "1st Coat" in black ink, then apply a second coat of YELLOW zinc chromate. The words "1st coat" would show through the translucent second coat, proving that there were two coats. This went into effect during the summer of '43. (Note that the first production "-1As" were delivered in the middle of August.) In short, Vought, Brewster, and Goodyear (VBG) did not use Interior Green as a primer coat. Cockpits were a different matter. Also in April 1943, the Navy told VBG to use up their stocks of Dull Dark Green, then switch to Interior Green as a cockpit color. Surviving aircraft suggest that this took place sometime between July and September, with lots of pre-painted DDG components still in use well into the autumn. (The change could have occured in final models of the Birdcage Corsair, but the record is murky.) Vought got a waiver to use aluminized zinc chromate ("candy apple green" in the cockpits - they found some pre-mixed stocks they wanted to use up. There's no record of how many aircraft received the bright cockpits, but I suspect it couldn't have been very many. (Brewster and Goodyear did not have aluminized zinc chromate to use up, and went directly to Interior Green.) Cheers, Dana Edited February 1, 2015 by Dana Bell 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) right, well that answers that! lol. Many, many thanks Dana that really helps. I only asked because some of the Royal Navy's, Fleet Air Arm (FAA) Corsairs still had the "Salmon Pink", " Indian Red", protective Primer coat applied, this was basically on almost all Corsair Mk.1's and a number of Mk.II's, after that they where all Zinc Chromate, with either Dark Dull Green or Interior Green cockpits, I thought it may have been a simple case of they used this colour until this make then they used this colour from that make onwards, but it seems from what you are saying that this was not the case it was simply a slow change from one to the other and was not mark specific. Can i ask where you found the name "Indian Red" as most publications list it as "Pink"? As i say thanks so much for the info. Doug S. Edited February 1, 2015 by Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Dana, Please forgive my ignorance, but are you the same Dana Bell who writes model articles for Fine Scale Modeler? Doug S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Bell Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Hi Doug, Indian Red was an iron oxide (rust) based pigment that was commonly used in primers; the name shows up in most of the contemporary correspondence and specs. It was often added to zinc chromate (yellow) to distinguish the second primer coat from the first - the mixture was the pink or orange color dubbed "salmon" by Larry Webster a few years back. (Although the term salmon wasn't used during WWII, it's still a great descriptor!) That was me writing for FineScale - it was a good gig and a great group of folks to work with. (I should do more of that!) I am not the same Dana Bell as the minimalist artist, biker environmentalist, vampire lust novel writer, or folk singer - besides, those four folks are all babes... Cheers, Dana 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Doug, Keep in my Vought's technical orders also specified that the main wheel wells were to receive a final coat of light sea gray and the same was true for the engine cowling (which was painted lsg throughout Corsair production). The only evidence ever found of salmon being visible in an exposed area was the tail wheel well area of the Michigan Corsair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck63 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Looks more like smoked swordfish to me! Very informative replies,Dana and Scooby!Great to have the both of you around, guys! :thumbsup: CheersManu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 Dana: Thanks for all your info, nice to have you respond to my questions, just finished reading several articles by you, two of which i had photocopied to save, safe and well, in my Corsair builds folder. Even more red faced that I didn't recognise your name, bows head in shame and exits stage left!!! Scooby, hello there, knew about the "Neutral" grey interiors to the engine cowlings, found an article all about that over on Hyperscale, but wasn't aware of this colour being used in the main undercarriage bays, will have to look into that subject a bit more as most of the photo's of French Corsairs show the main wheel bays to be painted in a very dark colour similar to to the Glass Dark Sea Blue used on the airframe. Please do not take this as an I don't believe you, as it is not. Canuck63, hello, have you just finished or about to start a French Corsair build???? Will probably make the detailed build No.2 into a photobuild as there is quite a lot of work that can be done to the Heller kit to make it look more realistic so keep your eyes peeled in about two weeks whilst I finish off the current build. Thanks to you all once again. Doug S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 Dana, Just to make you feel really good I have no idea who the hell any of the other Dana Bells you listed are, even if they are babes!!!! Doug S. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikB Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Hi Doug, Indian Red was an iron oxide (rust) based pigment that was commonly used in primers; the name shows up in most of the contemporary correspondence and specs. It was often added to zinc chromate (yellow) to distinguish the second primer coat from the first - the mixture was the pink or orange color dubbed "salmon" by Larry Webster a few years back. (Although the term salmon wasn't used during WWII, it's still a great descriptor!) That was me writing for FineScale - it was a good gig and a great group of folks to work with. (I should do more of that!) I am not the same Dana Bell as the minimalist artist, biker environmentalist, vampire lust novel writer, or folk singer - besides, those four folks are all babes... Cheers, Dana Please elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Bell Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Please elaborate? Hi Erik, There was a bit of confusion some time ago - this isn't me: http://www.amazon.com/Broken-True-Destiny-Dana-Marie-ebook/dp/B00POXZKSA/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1422914764&sr=1-3&keywords=dana+marie+bell Cheers, Dana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Bell Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Dana: Thanks for all your info, nice to have you respond to my questions, just finished reading several articles by you, two of which i had photocopied to save, safe and well, in my Corsair builds folder. Even more red faced that I didn't recognise your name, bows head in shame and exits stage left!!! ... Thanks to you all once again. Doug S. Hi Doug, Nothing to be red-faced about - not even Indian-Red-faced, for that matter! I'm still a minor writer with a few good titles to my name, but I enjoy the work! Glad something helped... Cheers, Dana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Scooby, hello there, knew about the "Neutral" grey interiors to the engine cowlings, found an article all about that over on Hyperscale, but wasn't aware of this colour being used in the main undercarriage bays, will have to look into that subject a bit more as most of the photo's of French Corsairs show the main wheel bays to be painted in a very dark colour similar to to the Glass Dark Sea Blue used on the airframe. Please do not take this as an I don't believe you, as it is not. Doug, I should have been more specific. The original documents called for the wheel wells to be painted light sea gray, as this was the color of the underside of the blue/gray Corsairs. For later Corsairs the wheel wells were painted in the color of the belly of the paint scheme applied to the aircraft. For tri-color it was white, for all blue it was blue. So correct, the French Corsairs had blue wheel wells. Nose cowl interior was gray throughout production of all variants. Yeas ago I met a Vought employee who painted Corsairs during the war. We were at a national convention in the States. He was losing it whenever he looked at Corsairs on the tables that had wheel-wells painted in chromate green. He said Corsairs never left the plant without receiving a final top coat over the chromate primers. He stated primers have teeth and are thus porous, they would absorb moisture which would lead to corrosion if a final protective coat was not painted over top the exposed areas. It was after that discussion that I researched this info in depth. Through that research I was able to determine the exposed areas were sprayed over with a final coat of the exterior color. Edited February 3, 2015 by Scooby 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifer54 Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 Wow, thread resurrection! On 2/3/2015 at 4:16 PM, Scooby said: Doug, I should have been more specific. The original documents called for the wheel wells to be painted light sea gray, as this was the color of the underside of the blue/gray Corsairs. For later Corsairs the wheel wells were painted in the color of the belly of the paint scheme applied to the aircraft. For tri-color it was white, for all blue it was blue. So correct, the French Corsairs had blue wheel wells. Nose cowl interior was gray throughout production of all variants. Yeas ago I met a Vought employee who painted Corsairs during the war. We were at a national convention in the States. He was losing it whenever he looked at Corsairs on the tables that had wheel-wells painted in chromate green. He said Corsairs never left the plant without receiving a final top coat over the chromate primers. He stated primers have teeth and are thus porous, they would absorb moisture which would lead to corrosion if a final protective coat was not painted over top the exposed areas. It was after that discussion that I researched this info in depth. Through that research I was able to determine the exposed areas were sprayed over with a final coat of the exterior color. I'm working on the Academy F4U-1, using the kit option of Cdr. Tommy Blackburn's machine of VF-17 in the tri-colour scheme. I found this thread while looking for details of Vought's Salmon (aka Indian Red) primer colour. From IPMS Stockholm's helpful website I gathered that wheel wells should be in the underside colour, but it also stated there that the smaller "forward" section of the wheel well should be in salmon or Interior Green. Is this correct, or all of the well be white? It also states on that site that the interior surfaces of the engine cowling should be White(!) I have literally just put my brush into my brush cleaner jar after painting exactly that! D'Oh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 Indian Red is one of many names used for Pigment Red 101 Synthetic Iron Oxide (i) to (iii) and Pigment Red 102 Anhydrous iron (III) -oxide; Ferric Oxide (natural red oxide) not to be confused with Red Lead which was lead chromate or tetroxide. Those are not typically pink in masstone colour unless tinted with a white pigment (for example a four to one tint of titanium oxide to red iron oxide iii results in a pink hue a little lighter than FS 31638) but are darker and range in hue from a deep brownish red to a dark orange dependent on particle size and manufacturing process. Mixing Indian Red pigment with zinc chromate (yellow) would result in the salmon pink hue. If Indian Red was used to describe the salmon pink primer it would seem more like a term of convenience. Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 Dana ... Please ... Please dont sell yourself short. A minor writer ? I know several modellers that consider your work and knowledge to be at the highest levels. Specifically concerning modeling WW2 aircraft. I often will look at your information, and usually rely on it with others added for making decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS_w Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, MadNurseGaz said: I'm working on the Academy F4U-1, using the kit option of Cdr. Tommy Blackburn's machine of VF-17 in the tri-colour scheme. I found this thread while looking for details of Vought's Salmon (aka Indian Red) primer colour. From IPMS Stockholm's helpful website I gathered that wheel wells should be in the underside colour, but it also stated there that the smaller "forward" section of the wheel well should be in salmon or Interior Green. Is this correct, or all of the well be white? It also states on that site that the interior surfaces of the engine cowling should be White(!) I have literally just put my brush into my brush cleaner jar after painting exactly that! D'Oh! According the tri tones scheme given by Vought(factory drawing 1942/43), - the wheel well(& ldg ) were "non specular light gray" or "white" when the center section end rib was "non specular intermediate blue" - interior cowling & interior cowl flaps : "non specular intermediate blue" or "light gray" in the new scheme overall gloss sea blue(1944) which supersedes the previous drawing, - the wheel well were "non specular light gray" , "white", "sea blue gloss", "non spec or semi gloss sea blue" - center section & outer panel: "non specular intermediate blue" , "sea blue gloss", "non spec or semi gloss sea blue" - interior cowling & interior cowl flaps : "sea blue gloss", "non spec or semi gloss sea blue" - ldg mechanism was "non specular light gray" , "white", "alu", "sea blue gloss", "non spec or semi gloss sea blue" Edited September 6, 2017 by BS_w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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