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1/48 - Dassault/IAI Nesher/Dagger & Finger by Wingman Models (Kinetic variant) - released


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very nice!

one question: anybody knows if this release contains the full and all Kinetic Mirage sprues?

Wingman Kfirs did not... :(

Peruian Mara (Mirage 5P3, 5P4 ) with AS.30 anyone? ;) (were they called Mara in Peru before, or only after 10 were sold in haste during the Falklands/ Malvinas war?)

Interested in your comment regarding the Wingman re-issue of the Kinetic Kfir kit and the suggestion that some of the original sprues were omitted from the re-release. Could you elaborate please ?.

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I believe all sprues with fuel tanks and weapons were omitted in the WM releases:

yes exactly :(

I have the 2 seater Kifr with very very nice resin fuselage parts, contents is exactly this one:

WMK48011.png

so you do net het the not so correct wing tanks from the Kinetic kit, but you also loose out on the weapons and paylons:

kin_48046_parts3.jpg

http://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/kits/kin/kit_kin_48046.shtml

ok for the Kfir, but not so for the Mirage!

as you would sorely miss the RPK tank and weapon combo

in the middle:

kin_48050_parts3.jpg

http://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/kits/kin/kit_kin_48050.shtml

the 1700L tanks and the AS.30 originally from Kinetics Mirage 2000 kit on the other hand....

let's (me at least!) wait for more precise info on their webpage...

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I am still waiting on delivery of my kits ordered one of each from Little Shop of Phantoms and Web site indicated would be sent out commencing the 15th. One of the Neshers and one of the Belgian airforce one. Took advantage of pre release pre payment of 60 each and good exchange rate with the pound.

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Pay more for less? ;)

I'll stick to the Kinetic kits.

Jens

less? not really!

different/ better detail and another version:

for the Kfit kits:

you get a resin cockpit, exhaust nozzles wheels and correct 500l supersonic wing fuel tanks, together wiht a superb and enormous decal sheet, and last but lot neast the resin parts to create the specific vrsion of the box (in the recce boxing above this is the strangely looking long range recce nose,

in the two-seater it is the second cocpkit i. e. totally new forward fuselage and canopy)

for the Mirage kits something similar is to be expected... but what exactly is not totally clear to me for now!

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They remove some sprues and add some resin (not all of it correct or high quality as far as I am informed) - and they double the price.

As I wrote I will stick to the Kinetic releases, but I won't argue with you if you want to pay more for the Wingman kit. Whatever floats your boat. :)

Jens

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Very slightly off topic but is anyone sufficiently au fait with the breakdown of the parts in the original Kinetic kits of the Mirage IIIE/O to determine whether an Atlas Cheetah is likely to be produced at some point in the future ?. I have the original kit but cannot work out if they have designed it in such a way as to produce some of the later South African and Latin American 'conversions'.

Thanks

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Hi all!

Thank you much for your interest in our models. Just to answer some questions for you folks – our kits are currently shipped, by next week all pre-orders should be on their way. Well, what is included in our boxes? Apart from a superbly printed decal (Cartograf), Kabuki masking paper, photoetched parts and metal AOA/Pitot probes the following:

WMK 48013 IAI Nesher: (NESHER, DAGGER, FINGER – no Mirage 5F, no Peruvian or other Mirages)

Armament necessary: IAI devolopped stuff like Shafrirs and 1,300 l tanks.

Sprues ommited: tank, missile and armament sprues – why?

1) Wrongly dimensioned wing tanks (subsonic and supersonic) with wrong fin parts (two fins instead of 3 fins necessary),

2) The IAF mainly operated the 1,300 l tanks which are not included with the Kinetic sprues anyway,

3) Neshers did not feature any of the French/NATO armament nor did the Daggers. Even the wingtank/bomb rack installation was changed from the original French 4 bombs/rack to IAI developped 2 bombs/rack.

So why should we buy sprues from Kinetic at extra price when these are not needed for our kits and thus increase the price for you? These extra bits come from Kinetic's armament sets. For them to include those in their kits is no big deal, these are there molds and their price/manufacturer policy. For us however, Kinetic would have to inject the full sprue, then cut out the missiles/tanks an chuck the rest. This would mean an immense increase in sprue costs and eventually an increase in retail price.

Our resin includes: new highly detailed Mirage 5 cockpit, wheels, exhaust, two Shafrirs and rails, two version of seats (Mk.4 and Mk.6), two 1,300 l tanks, two noses (Nesher/Finger), new antennas and revised spine – ALL you need to buit one model of the famous Neshers of the Yom Kippur War or a Dagger from 1982 ... plus as BONUS we give Mara ECM fairings – in case someone likes to built this particular Argentinian aircraft.

WMK48014 Belgian Mirage 5BA/BR: (Belgian Mirage 5BA (attack) and BR (recce) – no Mirage 5F, no international, no Cyrano equipped or other Mirages)

Armament necessary: French 1,700 l tanks and NATO armament

Sprues ommited: tank and Matra Magic sprues – why?

1) 1,700 l tanks lack of detail (replaced by resin parts)

2) Matra Magic not used by Belgian Air Force

3) Kinetic armament spruces Z & Y included as some rocket pods are needed!

Our resin includes: new highly detailed Mirage 5 cockpit, wheels, exhaust, new tail section for late-style ECM fairings, arrestor hook section, two version of seats (Mk.6 and Mk.10), two highly detailed 1,700 l tanks, new Mirage 5BA nose – ALL you need to buit one model of the Belgian Mirage fleet.

We are currently working on a proper centerline bomb rack and centerline 1,300 l fuel tank (which both are not provided by Kinetic) and which can be used on ANY Mirage IIIE or 5. We are also currently researching proper Argentinian 250 kg bombs.

In general it can be said we are ommiting spures and extras that are not needed for our kits e.g. RC-2 KFIR recces never featured bombs (but supersonic wing tanks) to keep the price lower for our customers. If you as modeler prefer the original content, then please buy the original Kinetic kits. These are cheaper and have more injected plastic. But be aware if you then start adding resin bits, metal parts and super decals – this will easily add-up to a much higher price then our original kit offering. What ever our customers prefer is fine with us. You come first and we want to serve you and not make you buy expenisve crap ...

@Jens: You are absolutely right to stick to the Kinetic boxing if you want just to built a Mirage IIIE and pay less. Our kits are limited run and they sell quite well, because the topics we choose are unique. From a Kinetic Mirage IIIE you simply cannot build a Belgian Mirage BA with out investing into expensive aftermarket parts – that's it!

However, judging from what you wrote before, you seem to be convinced from early reviews that what we provide is crappy stuf. It would be interesting to hear your opinion if you actually had a look into one of our NEW kit boxes and see what we actually give for the price – certainly more than Eduard in their e.g. 'Da Nang Phantoms' reboxing or 'International Starfighters' which have a way higher retail price when compared to our kits!

Thank you all for your patience and support of our line – I hope we are heading the right way! Please give us you feed back – we certainly want to listen to you, our customers, and provide what you actually need.

All the best!

Andreas @ Wingman Models

Edited by Andreas@Wingman Models
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I now have 5 of the Wingman kits and the resin parts are stunning. I have just received the Belgian Mirage 5 and there is a fair amount of resin. I took up the pre order price and at the time the pound to euro rate was good and the price paid was just short of £44.00. This price is similar to what I paid for the Eduard F-104 with considerably more resin parts. I am still awaiting the Nesher which was the same price at time of order. UK stockists seem to price these kits as pound = one Euro so not the manufacturers fault for higher retail price!

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Andreas

Thanks for the break down on what sprues are omitted in the two Mirage based kit and the reasons; that was very helpful.

Will Wingman be releasing any other kits based on the Kinetic Mirage III/5 kit? I know that there are a lot of us with a wish list of other variants that we would like to see

And will Wingman be releasing any of the Mirage resin upgrades as separate items in the “FixIt” range like you did for the Kfir?

Regards

Jim Barr

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thanks Andreas for the clarification!

the content was not clear originally on your webpage, but changed now! :)

pictures of the full content of your super kits would be nice! (see Eduard as a reference as you want to compare yourself with them :devil:;))

the Mara is obviously included as you state, so why no Peruian Mirage5P then, apart from decals?

so.. what about a tank - 2 weapons stations combo from wingman? are you sure about the 500l tanks? as Argentina bought Mirage III EAs directly from France... these non jettison-able tanks are a possibility also on the Daggers/ Fingers, no? (the Kinetic ones in the Kfir were wrong in shape, yes!) but the ones in the Mirage looks right for French tanks...

the Kinetic 1700l tanks come from the Mirage 2000 and are strange in shape and have a wrong fin stile for the Mirage III, the resin ones are surely welcome and look very nice!m no Aim-9B on Neshers? are you sure?

Argentinian bombs were most probable Spanish Expal BR-250 bomb series (retarded and slick variants are used, the slick ones are close to Mk-82 but not that ogival in shape) although also american and even british bombs were used !

here you have a nice roundup on bombs used (in spanish, sorry! if you need any specific translation let me know!)

https://aquellasarmasdeguerra.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/bombas-en-la-guerra-de-malvinas/

thanks for your nice and interesting kits, just some thoughts!

I think I will get one or 2 more!

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  • 1 month later...

Argentinian bombs were most probable Spanish Expal BR-250 bomb series (retarded and slick variants are used, the slick ones are close to Mk-82 but not that ogival in shape) although also american and even british bombs were used !

Just to get this straight (and please don't anybody take any personal offense), there were only two types of bomb used by Fuerza Aérea Argentina during the conflict:

- spanish-built EXPAL 250 kilogram bombs (both slick and parachute-retarded)

- british 1000 pound bombs.

The use of american 1000 pound bombs fitted with british 1000 pound bomb tails during the war IS JUST ANOTHER MYTH.

I think the latter were available during the war, as well as some Mk.82 Snakeyes provided by the Navy and some other types too, BUT THEY WERE NEVER USED DURING THE CONFLICT by Fuerza Aérea Argentina.

Lack of knowledege and accurate information on argentine subjects have produced a good number of incorrect and inaccurate articles, profiles, illustrations, etc., that sadly survive uncorrected to this day, even on argentine sites. The use of that american/british 1000 pound bomb combo during the war is just one of them.

Bo,

I didn't know the nose of C-410 was at a Museum. That is great to know. Thanks!

Jorge.

Edited by f4h1phantom
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Hey Jorge

Great input

There are an Argentine web page that shows/claim British 1000 lbs Mk 17 tails on M65 bombs, I don't understand spanish, so I am not sure, how do you know

the M65/mk17 where never used in combat.

https://aquellasarmasdeguerra.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/bombas-en-la-guerra-de-malvinas/

I have been told that the Dagger flew with the British made MK 17 as well, do you know how many?, and where where it hung on the aircraft=?

Bo

Just to get this straight (and please don't anybody take any personal offense), there were only two types of bomb used by Fuerza Aérea Argentina during the conflict:

- spanish-built EXPAL 250 kilogram bombs (both slick and parachute-retarded)

- british 1000 pound bombs.

The use of american 1000 pound bombs fitted with british 1000 pound bomb tails during the war IS JUST ANOTHER MYTH.

I think the latter were available during the war, as well as some Mk.82 Snakeyes provided by the Navy and some other types too, BUT THEY WERE NEVER USED DURING THE CONFLICT by Fuerza Aérea Argentina.

Lack of knowledege and accurate information on argentine subjects have produced a good number of incorrect and inaccurate articles, profiles, illustrations, etc., that sadly survive uncorrected to this day, even on argentine sites. The use of that american/british 1000 pound bomb combo during the war is just one of them.

Bo,

I didn't know the nose of C-410 was at a Museum. That is great to know. Thanks!

Jorge.

Edited by Bo hermansen
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Hey Jorge

Great input

There are an Argentine web page that shows/claim British 1000 lbs Mk 17 tails on M65 bombs, I don't understand spanish, so I am not sure, how do you know

the M65/mk17 where never used in combat.

https://aquellasarmasdeguerra.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/bombas-en-la-guerra-de-malvinas/

I have been told that the Dagger flew with the British made MK 17 as well, do you know how many?, and where where it hung on the aircraft=?

Bo

Hi Bo,

official reports always mention EXPALs or "Mk.17s" (as the british 1000 pound bomb is referred to as here - I have so far been unable to track the exact origin of that designation). No pilot or armourer has ever mentioned any other type of bomb being used by Fuerza Aérea Argentina during the conflict.

There is a famous picture of a pilot under an A-4B loaded with a TER on the centerline and that 1000 pound "combo" on the underside station of the TER. That is a postwar picture, confirmed by the pilot in the picture himself!

The other picture with four pilots in the link you provide does not date from wartime either. As nice as it is, its inclusion in that page is just derived from confusion or lack of knowledge.

The "combo" did/does of course exist, but there is no record, picture or mention of it being used during the conflict.

Check places like this one, written by people who were there, and you will always only find mention of BR-250, BRP-250 or Mk.17, just like on official records. Nothing more regarding bombs:

http://misvivenciasenlaguerrademalvinas.blogspot.com.ar/

When british 1000 pound bombs were used by Daggers, only one was carried, reportedly hung from the rear station of the centerline pylon. I will however treat this statement with a bit of caution until a picture of a 1000 pound bomb mounted on a Dagger surfaces. I have not been able to find any so far.

HTH,

Jorge.

Edited by f4h1phantom
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Wov Thanks Jorge, that web page was filled with great information and pictures

I can understand why you are reluctant to confirm the 1000 lbs on the Dagger, not one single picture with it

do you by any chance have acces to the dimentions of the BR/BRP 250, Andreas from wingman are working

on it, but need all the information, ei length, width and circumference

Bo

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Bo,

I am just being cautious. There is no denying that the british 1000 pound bomb was used by Daggers and I would very much like to build a model of one with such a load. I however always prefer to have photographic proof if I can, as people's memories can be very fuzzy sometimes.

The exact dimensions of EXPAL 250 kg. bombs is another area where my research has failed to reach fruition.

It is my understanding that the bombs should be exactly the same length as that of Mk.82s, as they should be local (spanish) substitutes for them and should fit on MERs if needed, and that the cylindrical center section should also be the diameter of Mk.82s at their widest point. The cylindrical center section is what accounts for the weight difference with the Mk.82 (550 pounds versus 500 pounds), but it could also be that they are slightly wider.

All I came up with however, even after trying a search for a site of the original builder on the net, are these 3 drawings of their products that provide conflicting information:

B4898U01%20SPANISH%20BOMB%20LDGP%20BR-25

SPANISH%20BOMB%20500-LB%20GP%20TYPE%20MK

SPANISH%20BOMB%20250-KG%20FRAG%20MODEL%2

Probably the second and third drawings refer to the smaller type, the 125 kg, bomb (?), but I have unfortunately not being able so far to compare them with Mk.82 dimensions.

I will try to measure a real one when I can, as the local museum has a couple of them and is not too far away, but I cannot seem to find the time to get there! Will gladly let you know if I get some reliable information.

Regards,

Jorge.

Edited by f4h1phantom
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Jorge, se PM

Bo

Bo,

I am just being cautious. There is no denying that the british 1000 pound bomb was used by Daggers and I would very much like to build a model of one with such a load. I however always prefer to have photographic proof if I can, as people's memories can be very fuzzy sometimes.

The exact dimensions of EXPAL 250 kg. bombs is another area where my research has failed to reach fruition.

It is my understanding that the bombs should be exactly the same length as that of Mk.82s, as they should be local (spanish) substitutes for them and should fit on MERs if needed, and that the cylindrical center section should also be the diameter of Mk.82s at their widest point. The cylindrical center section is what accounts for the weight difference with the Mk.82 (550 pounds versus 500 pounds), but it could also be that they are slightly wider.

All I came up with however, even after trying a search for a site of the original builder on the net, are these 3 drawings of their products that provide conflicting information:

B4898U01%20SPANISH%20BOMB%20LDGP%20BR-25

SPANISH%20BOMB%20500-LB%20GP%20TYPE%20MK

SPANISH%20BOMB%20250-KG%20FRAG%20MODEL%2

Probably the second and third drawings refer to the smaller type, the 125 kg, bomb (?), but I have unfortunately not being able so far to compare them with Mk.82 dimensions.

I will try to measure a real one when I can, as the local museum has a couple of them and is not too far away, but I cannot seem to find the time to get there! Will gladly let you know if I get some reliable information.

Regards,

Jorge.

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