Hampden torpedo bomber

[old thumper]

Maybe they had hit upon the Fleet Air Arm Fulmar form of rear defence by using a Tommy Gun and bundles of toilet paper which were thrown out and `exploded' into hundreds of individual sheets upon hitting the slipstream, thus scaring any following fighter? It would arguably have been more effective than a pair of .303in popguns? I`m only joking by the way,.......although the Fulmar crews did use this form of defence.

Cheers

Tony

That's just silly, they never had rolls of toilet paper back then, just squares of news paper hanging on a nail.

[wyverns4]

So... Lets see if I understand what is going on.

1. The bomb bay doors remain unchanged.

2. The area where the ventral gunner sat/squatted had a rounded U-shaped channel, (12" deep?), cut into it to facilitate carriage of the aero-tail of the torpedo

3. The ventral door was fixed in place and windows were modified.

4. The ventral gunner position was not covered, but left open.

5. ?

This post is great! I have been wanting to do one of these for some time, (AN120, XA-L), but never really understood the modifications necessary, especially the oft quoted, "Deepened bomb bay/doors", as I could never see them! Now, perhaps I can break out a Hampden, or two, from the stash...

Cheers!

Christian the Married and exiled to africa, who feels like a TB. Mk. I and a (Met flight) coming on...

[Graham Boak]

Not quite.

Step 1. Yes.

Step 2. The ventral gunner's gondola was too small to sit in or squat, even on the bomber. It is only a fairing up from the rear of the bombbay, with windows and a gun mounting at the top. On the torpedo bomber it was smaller, with a 12in step up behind the bombbay doors, and different windows.

Step 3. I don't know - I'll have to take a trip back to Cosford on a workshop open day to find out. Or peer at the photos of this area on bombers and TB to see what I can see.

Step 4. It was seen as open on two examples, closed on others.

I could never see the deepened bombbay doors either.

[rossm]

What's unclear about the photos on P 88 of Tim Mason's The Secret Years ?

Resurrecting this thread because I'm puzzled - page 88 in my copy of this book is a page of Stirlings!

[Mike Starmer]

In 1993 I visited the RAF Museum about these TB Hampden mods. The hand book was at Cosford but there is a slinging diagram for the torpedo and a ghosted diagram of the airframe structure. The rearmost frame of the bomb bay is reduced in height to a concave shape to allow the torpedo airtail to be accommodated. I have the sketch I made in January 1993 in front of me. However we could not determine what glazing or other structure modifications were made to the ventral position. I don't know how to post pictures but if Graham e-mails me I cane sent it to him. Another colour matter too. The Hampdens were converted at Loughborough Brush Coachworks to TB configuration and painted in TSS with Sky undersurfaces with low demarcation line. Before they went to Russia the undersurfaces were repainted black for night attacks. This is the scheme that they carried when handed to the soviets, not as artwork shows in bomber colours. The Russians simply painted over the RAF marking with their own green camouflage paint.

[gmsphoto]

Hi

I forgot about this. There is a v shape channel for the air tail of the torpedo. The bomb doors were lowered by 10 cm so they could cradle the bomb if the release didn't work. The doors where never changed and the ventral turret would of had perspex.

I seen the Hampden up close and will post pics later.

Graeme

[Graham Boak]

I don't believe that the bomb doors were lowered - had this been true there would have been a visible step when closed at the front too. There doesn't seem to have been any need for it. The outer doors closed (edit) until they were resting on the inner doors with these (end edit) touching the sides of the torpedo until it was dropped, whereupon the doors closed normally.

EDIT: correction to the action of the outer doors.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Graham Boak

[gmsphoto]

I was given a tour and asked the apprentice about the bomb doors that as he was working on it. He said the doors where lowered.

[Graham Boak]

I suspect some misunderstanding. I have copies (of part) of the installation drawings (not proper 3-view engineering drawings but non-the-less official), and there's not the slightest suggestion of any extension to the doors. They should therefore have the same HP part numbers - which I can't check but the information should be somewhere. Harry Frazer-Mitchell told me that there was much at Duxford, though this may have moved to Cosford since. Incidentally the doors have to be closed manually with the torpedo in place: using the power option would wreck the doors.

There is however a comment that the US torpedo could be carried - the normal air-launched US torpedo is shorter and fatter and has a box tail, so perhaps it fitted completely within the bombbay? I wonder if it was every actually tried?

[tonyot]

Just as an update.....I`ve built two Hampden TB.I models now using info from this thread;

Airfix kit- http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980564-airfix-172nd-hp-hampden-conv-to-a-tb1-torpedo-bomber-455-sqn-raaf-bomber-scheme/?hl=hampden

Valom kit- http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234978630-172nd-valom-hampden-tb1-455-sqn-raaf-murmansk-russia/?hl=hampden

So cheers folks,

Tony

[72modeler]

Wow! This has been a very interesting, informative, and spirited discussion! I have always liked the TB1 Hampden as a modeling possibility, but like many of you, have been afraid to start cutting and gluing plastic on either the Airfix or Valom kits until finding evidence/description on how the torpedo was carried and how the gunner's position was modified to accommodate the airtail fin assembly.

Not being anywhere near an authority or possessing serious references on the Hampden, it seems to me, from looking at the attached photos and written references quoted, that the bomb doors were not enlarged, lowered or modified, but that carriers for the torpedo were fitted at the front and back of the existing bomb bay, and that the bulkhead/former that formed the back of the bomb bay and the front of the ventral gunner's position had a triangular section cut out, with a section of sheet metal fitted to the ventral gunner's fairing that sealed off the bottom of the fairing and matched the triangular section cut out of the former, resulting in a panel (for want of a better term) that had the shape of an inverted 'v' that allowed the airtail box/fins to fit behind the rear of the bomb bay. The actual floor for the gunner's position had to be raised 12" due to the cutout in the rear bulkhead and new bottom panel reducing the height 12" at that point.

Did I get that more or less right?

I found a photo of the bulkhead in question and the ventral gunner's fairing on the Cosford Hampden that I think shows the section in question that was removed from the bulkhead pretty clearly. If I am correct in understanding the general consensus of the comments regarding this modification, then a section of sheet metal would be made that conformed to this triangular shape to enclose this area from the elements and allow clearance for the airtail. In the photo, I noticed a horizontal line of rivet holes towards the lower section of the bulkhead that might have served as an attachment point for a box channel or other suitable support for a new floor for the gunner.

Sure wish this section, which is the main area of modification for the TB1's, had been photographed more in detail and from other angles. Perhaps some one involved in the restoration is either a modeler or reads this forum and can supply us with some good photos of this area.

I stand prepared to remove hoof from mouth if I have mucked this up or am totally off base in my assumptions. You have to be more than a little crazy to be a modeler and go to this extreme on what might seem to many as a trivial pursuit, but I am betting I'm not alone in wanting to get this right on a model of the TB1.

Mike

http://flickrhivemind.net/blackmagic.cgi?id=16289057645&url=http%3A%2F%2Fflickrhivemind.net%2FTags%2Fpage%252Ctb1%2FInteresting%3Fsearch_type%3DTags%3Btextinput%3Dpage%252Ctb1%3Bphoto_type%3D250%3Bmethod%3DGET%3Bnoform%3Dt%3Bsort%3DInterestingness%23pic16289057645&user=&flickrurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/29126266@N00/16289057645

Edited August 22, 2016 by 72modeler

[Graham Boak]

Excellent photo, thank you very much. Not two separate carriers for the torpedo but one heavy duty one, and I don't see any need for modifying the floor for the gunner. Otherwise yes.

[Finn]

Here is a pic of a torpedo from a Hampden:

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/UK0165/

you type in "Hampden torpedo bomber" in the search box and get a few more images, no close ups however.

Jari

Edited August 25, 2016 by Finn

[nuuumannn]

Sounds good 72modeler. I covered this subject on a couple of forums and have little more to add to what's been established here, except a few images kindly loaned to me for this purpose and posted on another aviation forum, by a friend. The images are copyrighted to him. They show the vee indent in the bottom of the cupola clearly and the vee shaped cut out on the rear bomb bay bulkhead through the grey window panel on the cupola in the lower images.

Edited August 23, 2016 by nuuumannn

[tonyot]

Great photos,...cheers,......at least I wasn`t 100 miles away with my guesswork for the cut out on my pair of models,...which looks OK then covered by the torpedo;

Tony

[72modeler]

Sounds good 72modeler. I covered this subject on a couple of forums and have little more to add to what's been established here, except a few images kindly loaned to me for this purpose and posted on another aviation forum, by a friend. The images are copyrighted to him. They show the vee indent in the bottom of the cupola clearly and the vee shaped cut out on the rear bomb bay bulkhead through the grey window panel on the cupola in the lower images.

Nuuumann,

Many thanks to you and your friend for sharing the photos- they are outstanding! I think they will be really helpful in getting that area of the TB1 correct...now all I gotta do is figure out an easy way to do the airtail assembly! Thanks again!

Mike

[Graham Boak]

I do have some partial copies of the TI drawings: anyone interested please send me your email by PM.

[rossm]

Some interesting snippets just found in the 415 Squadron Summary of Events for 1941/2

 

Their Hampdens had modifications to the bomb bay for carrying 2,000lb bombs which seem to need the doors ajar.

 

They also at least tested Depth charges

 

and on 2/4/42 "Aircraft are now being modified so as to take under gun mountings". Perhaps the TB modification initally didn't have them? Maybe @Graham Boak has found more in the time since his last post?

[brewerjerry]

Hi

    I found a photo a while back that has a rear view of the torpedo loaded into a hampden 

   not a great one but the only one i have seen

    i cant post photos , but if someone who can sends a pm with e mail address to me i will e mail the photo for them to post here 

    cheers

       jerry

[dogsbody]

40 minutes ago, brewerjerry said:

Hi

    I found a photo a while back that has a rear view of the torpedo loaded into a hampden 

   not a great one but the only one i have seen

    i cant post photos , but if someone who can sends a pm with e mail address to me i will e mail the photo for them to post here 

    cheers

       jerry

 

This one, Jerry?

 

 

 

 

Chris

[brewerjerry]

Hi Chris

              yes thats the one, thanks for posting it

   cheers

     jerry 

[Graham Boak]

12 hours ago, rossm said:

Some interesting snippets just found in the 415 Squadron Summary of Events for 1941/2

Their Hampdens had modifications to the bomb bay for carrying 2,000lb bombs which seem to need the doors ajar.

and on 2/4/42 "Aircraft are now being modified so as to take under gun mountings". Perhaps the TB modification initally didn't have them? Maybe @Graham Boak has found more in the time since his last post?

The Hampden was designed, like all RAF bombers of the period, around the length and width of the 2000ln SAP bomb for use against major warships - as in the raids on Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in Brest (but not by Hampdens!).  Presumably this is the later 2000lb HEMC(?) bomb, which was (I believe) too wide to permit the doors to close.  Detail for Selwyn or others to rule on?

 

The TB mods had to include the changes to the ventral position otherwise the torpedo couldn't be carried.  I've no idea what this could be referring to.

 

There is a visible difference between the minor ventral windows on the TB and the standard Hampden.  Excuse me for forgetting just what this is.

 

 

[melvyn hiscock]

Having caught up with this very late, like so many things, coikd the underside colour in the photos of post 15 be yellow and could they be ATDU Gosport?

[brewerjerry]

37 minutes ago, melvyn hiscock said:

Having caught up with this very late, like so many things, coikd the underside colour in the photos of post 15 be yellow and could they be ATDU Gosport?

Hi

     Seem to remember having seen it somewhere captioned as at pat bay canada, ( rightly or wrongly captioned ? ) 

 

   I often wondered if some of the canadian hampden TB's were modified locally and were slightly different 

 

  cheers

     jerry 

[melvyn hiscock]

1 hour ago, brewerjerry said:

Hi

     Seem to remember having seen it somewhere captioned as at pat bay canada, ( rightly or wrongly captioned ? ) 

 

   I often wondered if some of the canadian hampden TB's were modified locally and were slightly different 

 

  cheers

     jerry 

Could well be, I know they used them at Grotsport, and my aunt was the WAAF that took the reports by dictation.

 

Gosport was a fascinating place with practice torpedoes being send back by train from Stokes Bay pier, Hampdens, Manchester’s and later even Canberra’s using the place plus a very important World War One history and the airfield the Spirit of St Louis was dismantled and sent back to the US.