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exdraken

MiG-17F and PF Fresco - June 1967 and "war of attrition" 1967-1973 double build + SA-2 guildeline SAM1/48

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I am going to build a MiG-17F as a fighter bomber as used by Egypt in the war of attrition against Israel form the 6 days war of 67 up to the 1973 war to reclaim the Sinai peninsula.

good in interesting reading from the arab/ not so well known point of view: Arab MiGs vol. 1-5 from Harpia publishing

first dilema: which camouflage scheme to do?

Egypt started to camouflage its aircraft right after the 67 war for good reasons. in the beginning quite crudely with light blue/ light grey undersides and sand/green/brown upper sides. hardly all aircrasft seem to be different. Later the famous nile valley scheme started to appear...

to make matters more complicated, up to 1972? the roundels of the UARAF (United Arab Republic Air Force)

Then the 2 stars of the roundels deleted and the flag usually carried on the tail received the so called Eagle of Saladin... I have decals for those... or could search for the older ones on other sheets.

Here is what I have for now:

kit with some necessary accessories and the kit's decals. looks good so far...

IMG_6387_1_1_zpsc0cf6c52.jpg

fuselage with deep panel lines but quite nice shape:

IMG_6393_1_1_zps75b23c03.jpg

and the all important ordnance for a egyptian aircraft: unguided 76mm sakr rockets only available in the SMER kit

IMG_6390_1_1_zps313e6ff0.jpg

additionally fuselage bomb pylons and bombs (to be replaced I think with aerobonus or similar) as well as 57 mm rocket pods.

IMG_6391_1_1_zps49379898.jpg

I bought more sheets than necessary... Hi Decal upper left, ILIAD upper right, SMER low:

IMG_6382_1_1_zpscdfce2b0.jpg

looking at the Eagle of Saladin in detail though:

IMG_6384_222_1_zps5b1ac3af.jpg

the kit decal look more childish, don't they? Hi Decals chose to do a very different eagle with a black outline, whereas Iliad design did a sheet for the Mig-15UTI with a red / gold outlined eagle.(apart from that, it is to be used for an aircraft of the 6 days war of 67....)

so, which ones to use?

or should I ditch them all and use the UARAF 2 stars and go for an "early" war of attrition?

Edited by exdraken

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That's an interesting and exotic selection of decals you have there. Shame there's such a variety of interpretations in the Eagle of Saladin. Do you have any pictures of the actual marking to compare with?

The kit looks fairly good quality at least to give you a worthwhile starting point.

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exdraken,

I am going to thoroughly enjoy this especially if it going to be in Egyptian markings...

Good start already..

I don't think the decals look childish. .maybe it looks that way because of the Arabic characters . .I think they look okay but if you make your own that will be as exciting to see.. Nice set of sprues too..Great photos .

good luck.. :thumbsup::speak_cool:

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Wow what a wonderful decals set!!! Exotic as I like so much! Do you planning to bulld something with Somalian and Angolian Marks?

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A very interesting subject, I have to admit I started this kit but then have up as the fit was pretty shocking, at least mine was, the wings especially but I think they are warped!

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The best arabic charachters are best on the Illiad sheet followed by the Hi Decal ones and last by the kit decals. I would go with the crudest eagle simply because the markings and camo were done in the field at the beginning of the war of attrition and you can see from pictures of Egyptian planes of the period that no two palnes had the same pattern.

I would say that you have artistic freedom here.

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I don't think the decals look childish. .maybe it looks that way because of the Arabic characters . .I think they look okay but if you make your own that will be as exciting to see.. Nice set of sprues too..Great photos .

good luck.. :thumbsup::speak_cool:

I was refered to the depiction of the eagle on the Egyptian flag on the SMER decals compared to the other ones. but maybe swimmer is right:

The best arabic charachters are best on the Illiad sheet followed by the Hi Decal ones and last by the kit decals. I would go with the crudest eagle simply because the markings and camo were done in the field at the beginning of the war of attrition and you can see from pictures of Egyptian planes of the period that no two palnes had the same pattern.

I would say that you have artistic freedom here.

thanks for the heads up on the arabic charachters! maybe you are right about the eagle style!

A very interesting subject, I have to admit I started this kit but then have up as the fit was pretty shocking, at least mine was, the wings especially but I think they are warped!

mine looks quite nice! no warping issues. but definitely not Hasegawa style either ;)

Wow what a wonderful decals set!!! Exotic as I like so much! Do you planning to bulld something with Somalian and Angolian Marks?

thanks! but I only spended the required money! kudos to the designers, as appropriate! It is really nice that people produce this exotic decals!

for the time being no plans on further builds... but I have a secoud MiG-17 kit (and a spare canopy if I do not break the first from Tasman models), as well as Hobby Boss's MiG-15UTI!

so time will tell!

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no that much of an update:

the sparse cockpit with kit ejection seat:

IMG_6415_1_1_zps4f9f2a37.jpg

here compared to an MiG-15/ early MiG-17 seat from Pavla. More detailed but different in shape especially the headrest....

IMG_6422_1_1_zps47c583c2.jpg

maybe I need something else!

recommendations??

Edited by exdraken

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so, finally some progress:

Neomega KK-2 seat :thumbsup:

IMG_6582_1_1_zpsa5efc85f.jpg

kit cockpit :nono:

IMG_6585_1_1_zps4e9cedc0.jpg

fuselage closed :)

IMG_6583_1_1_zpsdad00189.jpg

starting to look like a little aeroplane, no?

Edited by exdraken

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Interesting build subject. I find the Mig-17 strange-looking, the wings look slightly ridiculous when viewed from above!

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Very nice subject with an interesting camouflage too. Back then there weren't to many photographers around so I can imagine color images are sparse, despite all that I think you're able to build a nice Mig. Judging your Suchoi-22 you posted earlier this could be a beauty.

Following with interest.

Evert

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thanks for the flowers, Evert :)

well we will see, I do not plan to spend that much time on this little plane!

here anothe question for those who know:

the Egyption Mig-17s were equipped with bomb racks on the fuselage. (can be seen tin the video above).

which bombs best to use?

here is what I have to offer, anything usefull among them?

from left to right:

  • fuel tanks (for sure, short range plane!!!)
  • FAB-250 from Trumpeter ? too modern?
  • FAB-250 from Eduard?
  • FAB-100 Eduard,?
  • Sakr rockets form the kit (aluminum colored?)

IMG_6599_1_1_zps9a0f8ee5.jpg

what do you reckon?

Edited by exdraken

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Hi Draken,

since you seem to have got most of books from Arab MiGs series, much of following explanations might be much easier to understand.

The first decision you ought to bring is to determine the exact period from which your modell should be. Namely, there were not only differences in national insignia, but also in regards of camo and markings too, during these six years of 'War of Bloodletting' (as Nasser originally called this conflict; it was Western media that mis-translated this into 'War of Attrition').

1st period was that immediately after the June 1967 War. This is when camo patterns were applied on UARAF MiG-17s for the first time. Usually, camo colours consisted of whatever 'sand/beige & green' paint was available (usually taken from car-factories at Helwan). These were applied (without any varnish) over the original 'natural metall overall', and _around_ existing national markings and identification stripes. For a good example of what I'm talking about, see photos and artwork/colour profile of the MiG-21F-13 '5341', on pages 216-217 and 239 of Volume 3, or artworks of MiG-17Fs on p236 of Volume 4.

Note: lack of varnish and heavy use resulted in trully massive amounts of wear, chipping etc., i.e. camo patterns of UARAF MiGs from that period tended to look 'badly worn out'.

2nd period was that of 1969-1970, when more elaborate, three-colour camo patterns appeared, usually consisting of two shades of green and sand/beige. Nevertheless, older patterns in sand/beige and green, or in sand/beige and dark earth, were still much in use too. National markings remained the same, but serials grew in size.

3rd period was that of 'No War, no Peace', i.e. 1971-1973, when elaborate camo patterns came into being, generally known as 'Nile Valley'. These usually consisted of sand/beige, olive green and black-green. Nevertheless, few aircraft were painted in olive green and black green, and some still wore their older camo patterns. Starting in early 1972, the title UARAF was dropped: national markings saw the deletion of two green stars, and their replacement with the 'Hawk of Salahaddin'. Serials remained 'rather big' in size.

What of this you should use... well, can't really tell you 'do this or that', only offer my commentary about decals you've got. For example:

- 2034: most of decal sheets you've got are showing this serial. This is actually quite a famous aircraft - for two different reasons. In the West it is 'renowned' for a series of photos taken by Dutch reporters in 1981, shortly after her withdrawal from service (see Volume 5, p148). Obviously, as of 1981, she wore the post-1972 insignia, relatively big serial numbers (as on most of decals you've got) and the last variant of 'Nile Valley' camo.

But in Egypt, this aircraft is renowned as having served with No. 62 Squadron. This unit saw plenty of action during the War of Attrition, when it was the premier UARAF 'SEAD' asset, i.e. specialized in attacking Israeli MIM-23A HAWK SAMs. As of that time, 2034 was painted in beige (BS381C/388) and grey-green (BS381C/283) on top surfaces, and light admiralty grey on bottom surfaces. Serial was much smaller at that time (UARAF used standardized stencils from 1958 until 1969). For a colour profile (and a very precise top view too!) of 2034 at that time, see Volume 4, page 236.

In 1973, No. 62 Squadron EAF was deployed to Syria, and 2034 flew a number of combat sorties during the October 1973 War with Israel. It is almost certain that this MiG-17 received a Nile Valley camo pattern by that time. But, there are no photos of her, and details of the pattern in question are therefore unknown. National marking by that time included the 'Hawk of Salahaddin' instead of green stars, of course.

- 2147: another of decal sheets you've got is showing serials for a MiG-17F photographed by US military reporters during the Exercise Bright Start '81, in October or November 1981. As mentioned above, at that time the type was short of being withdrawn from service. 2147 wore the late variant of Nile Valley camo pattern, certainly applied during one of overhauls in the late 1970s, i.e. not related to the period of War of Attrition. Plus: at that time she had that 'Orange Leopard' unit insignia applied on the front fuselage: you've got the decal for the latter but on another sheet - and then related to '2727', which is completely wrong (that MiG-17F never wore such unit insignia).

To keep it short: I've got no clue what this aircraft looked like during the War of Attrition. Certain is only that she didn't wear national insignia including the 'Hawk of Salahaddin' in period 1967-1970: indeed, most of EAF aircraft went into the October 1973 War still wearing none, but already having their green stars deleted too.

- 2727: photographs of this MiG-17F were taken by Lon Nordeen in 1979 (at least one is going to be published in Volume 6, due out in October this year). They are showing her painted in olive green and black green, and - of course - having national insignia including the 'Hawk of Salahaddin'.

Nothing is known about the looks of that MiG-17 during the War of Attrition or even during the October 1973 War. However, what is known is that there was only a very small number of 'Snakes' (Egyptian nick-name for MiG-17s) painted that way, i.e. in green-grey and black-green, with undersurfaces in light blue (instead of more usual light admiralty grey). They all served with No. 61 Squadron, which lost at least one of its MiG-17 during the opening strike on MIM-23 HAWK-site at Ras Muhammad, in the southern Sinai (near Ras Nasrani/Ophir AB), on 6 October 1973.

And, this aircraft never wore that 'Orange Leopard' unit insignia included in that decal sheet.

- 3224: this serial (as printed by ILIAD) is completely wrong. No Egyptian MiG-17s ever wore serials in range 3xxx: this was reserved for 50 MiG-19S' Egypt acquired in 1960-1962 period (of course, in such case its national insignia is simply 'not fitting' either: no MiG-19s remained in service in Egypt long enough to get the 'Hawk of Salahaddin' applied).

In summary, it's really hard to tell you what to do here. I'm sorry to say it but although you've got - apparently - 'more than enough' decal sheets, with one exception (serial number '2034'), they are or very little use for 'War of Attrition'. Even then, as available on decal sheets in question, these digits are much too large (and too thick too) for period 1968-1969. For perfectly authentic UARAF insignia from that time, you need national markings without the 'Hawk of Salahaddin', but with two green stars (applied on roundels too!). And that's, 'just for the start'.

I am therefore happy to observe that the selection of weapons you've got is much better. Especially modells of FAB-250M-46 bombs ('big, light grey' ones) and Sakr rockets look very good. Neomega's KK-2 seat is a 'gem' too.

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...ah yes: and 'FAB-250' by Eduard (?) - bombs in centre, made in dark-grey plastic... actually resemble ZAB-250 napalm tanks.

These were never used on any of Egyptian MiG-17s (too heavy).

Smaller modells next to them are rather resembling FAB-50M-54s. Although purchased by Egypt (and even manufactured domestically under licence), these proved 'too light' already during the early phases of the War of Attrition, and were de-facto 'abandoned' already by 1969.

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FINNALY!

Thanks Tom for your valuable input!

Hi Draken,

since you seem to have got most of books from Arab MiGs series, much of following explanations might be much easier to understand.

The first decision you ought to bring is to determine the exact period from which your modell should be. Namely, there were not only differences in national insignia, but also in regards of camo and markings too, during these six years of 'War of Bloodletting' (as Nasser originally called this conflict; it was Western media that mis-translated this into 'War of Attrition').

1st period was that immediately after the June 1967 War. This is when camo patterns were applied on UARAF MiG-17s for the first time. Usually, camo colours consisted of whatever 'sand/beige & green' paint was available (usually taken from car-factories at Helwan). These were applied (without any varnish) over the original 'natural metall overall', and _around_ existing national markings and identification stripes. For a good example of what I'm talking about, see photos and artwork/colour profile of the MiG-21F-13 '5341', on pages 216-217 and 239 of Volume 3, or artworks of MiG-17Fs on p236 of Volume 4.

Note: lack of varnish and heavy use resulted in trully massive amounts of wear, chipping etc., i.e. camo patterns of UARAF MiGs from that period tended to look 'badly worn out'.

2nd period was that of 1969-1970, when more elaborate, three-colour camo patterns appeared, usually consisting of two shades of green and sand/beige. Nevertheless, older patterns in sand/beige and green, or in sand/beige and dark earth, were still much in use too. National markings remained the same, but serials grew in size.

3rd period was that of 'No War, no Peace', i.e. 1971-1973, when elaborate camo patterns came into being, generally known as 'Nile Valley'. These usually consisted of sand/beige, olive green and black-green. Nevertheless, few aircraft were painted in olive green and black green, and some still wore their older camo patterns. Starting in early 1972, the title UARAF was dropped: national markings saw the deletion of two green stars, and their replacement with the 'Hawk of Salahaddin'. Serials remained 'rather big' in size.

What of this you should use... well, can't really tell you 'do this or that', only offer my commentary about decals you've got. For example:

- 2034: most of decal sheets you've got are showing this serial. This is actually quite a famous aircraft - for two different reasons. In the West it is 'renowned' for a series of photos taken by Dutch reporters in 1981, shortly after her withdrawal from service (see Volume 5, p148). Obviously, as of 1981, she wore the post-1972 insignia, relatively big serial numbers (as on most of decals you've got) and the last variant of 'Nile Valley' camo.

But in Egypt, this aircraft is renowned as having served with No. 62 Squadron. This unit saw plenty of action during the War of Attrition, when it was the premier UARAF 'SEAD' asset, i.e. specialized in attacking Israeli MIM-23A HAWK SAMs. As of that time, 2034 was painted in beige (BS381C/388) and grey-green (BS381C/283) on top surfaces, and light admiralty grey on bottom surfaces. Serial was much smaller at that time (UARAF used standardized stencils from 1958 until 1969). For a colour profile (and a very precise top view too!) of 2034 at that time, see Volume 4, page 236.

In 1973, No. 62 Squadron EAF was deployed to Syria, and 2034 flew a number of combat sorties during the October 1973 War with Israel. It is almost certain that this MiG-17 received a Nile Valley camo pattern by that time. But, there are no photos of her, and details of the pattern in question are therefore unknown. National marking by that time included the 'Hawk of Salahaddin' instead of green stars, of course.

In summary, it's really hard to tell you what to do here. I'm sorry to say it but although you've got - apparently - 'more than enough' decal sheets, with one exception (serial number '2034'), they are or very little use for 'War of Attrition'. Even then, as available on decal sheets in question, these digits are much too large (and too thick too) for period 1968-1969. For perfectly authentic UARAF insignia from that time, you need national markings without the 'Hawk of Salahaddin', but with two green stars (applied on roundels too!). And that's, 'just for the start'.

I am therefore happy to observe that the selection of weapons you've got is much better. Especially modells of FAB-250M-46 bombs ('big, light grey' ones) and Sakr rockets look very good. Neomega's KK-2 seat is a 'gem' too.

hmm so the most likely one for a, lets call it 2pre Yom Kippur/ Oktober 1973 period" would be something close to 2034...

with or without the eagle/ falcon/ hawk of Saladin/ Salahaddin, but with NO green stars in roundels and flag...

Rockets are fine you say --> :) silver/ aluminum colored with the warhead in grey?

bombs are still a bit of a headache ...

by the way, looking forward to Vol.6!

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...ah yes: and 'FAB-250' by Eduard (?) - bombs in centre, made in dark-grey plastic... actually resemble ZAB-250 napalm tanks.

These were never used on any of Egyptian MiG-17s (too heavy).

Smaller modells next to them are rather resembling FAB-50M-54s. Although purchased by Egypt (and even manufactured domestically under licence), these proved 'too light' already during the early phases of the War of Attrition, and were de-facto 'abandoned' already by 1969.

hmmm shouldn't xAB-250 bombs always weigh more or less the same? i.e. ~ 250kg?

the smaller ones are supposed to be FAB-100s... the Smer kit includes FAB-50s, wich really look tiny!

actually none of the bombs look exactly like the ones on p.236, Vol.4....

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My pleasure, Draken.

Regarding your questions:

Fin flash + roundels = 2 green stars

Rockets = grey overall, with yellow bands around the warhead.

FAB-250 bombs weight the same. But FAB-250 and ZAB-300 (sorry, I mist-typed it as 'ZAB-250') = sorry, no way. The latter is a napalm tank, no high-explosive weapon as such.

Re. none of the bombs looks like.... = the two FAB-250M-46s are quite good, really.

Just a little bit stubbier nose than on my artwork (I used linedrawings from original Soviet documentation as specimen, though, which is extremely seldom done by kit-makers).

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My pleasure, Draken.

Regarding your questions:

Fin flash + roundels = 2 green stars

Rockets = grey overall, with yellow bands around the warhead.

FAB-250 bombs weight the same. But FAB-250 and ZAB-300 (sorry, I mist-typed it as 'ZAB-250') = sorry, no way. The latter is a napalm tank, no high-explosive weapon as such.

Re. none of the bombs looks like.... = the two FAB-250M-46s are quite good, really.

Just a little bit stubbier nose than on my artwork (I used linedrawings from original Soviet documentation as specimen, though, which is extremely seldom done by kit-makers).

thanks for the valuable response!

Lets see hwo all this works out in the end,

maybe I just have to do another one with all the info! (see also http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234976206-mig-17-pf-maybe/) ;)

here some updates on the model !

the Neomega seat fits... with some creative shoehorning and structural creativity...

as a remider to myself: always decide before you glue which parts/ components to use.... ;)

IMG_6606_1_1_zps3b5cf000.jpg

37mm and 23 mm cannons from Master :)

IMG_6609_1_1_zps9bd5623b.jpg

IMG_6612_1_1_zpsd6f61ed6.jpg

Edited by exdraken

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ready for painting/ priming!

he vacform canopy looks very nice, masking it is quite fiddly though!

IMG_6654_1_1_zpsc4793d73.jpg

could not resist

this thread will be enlarged somehow, as I plan to include a MiG-17PF from Hobbyboss as well.

in natural metal, maybe around June 1967 marking of the then URUAF (Quote Tom Cooper: 'classic' UARAF insignia, including red-white-black roundels with two green stars on"). If I can find a squadron emblem of the No. 31 Sqn with 'CrowBat' unit crest on the front fuselage...http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234976206-mig-17-pf-maybe/

so here a crude start:

IMG_6662_1_1_zps965f15bb.jpg

parts break down is a lot more complicated, detail is a lot more crisp an there is more detail. pose-able speed brakes, a whole engine :) - maybe I will build it seperately - and a more detailed cockpit.

the seat(s) are different than he Smer ones, maybe there is a KK-1 and a KK-2 recognizable !

compared to the already base- colored Neomega KK-2 though thy look a bit tough!

IMG_6666_1_1_zpsd1413806.jpg

another Neomega one? or shoud I try my with Aires or Pavla this time?

Edited by exdraken

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this thread will be enlarged somehow, as I plan to include a MiG-17PF from Hobbyboss as well.

in natural metal, maybe around June 1967 marking of the then URUAF (Quote Tom Cooper: 'classic' UARAF insignia, including red-white-black roundels with two green stars on"). If I can find a squadron emblem of the No. 31 Sqn with 'CrowBat' unit crest on the front fuselage...http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234976206-mig-17-pf-maybe/

DP Casper's sheet is including that insignia - plus serial for MiG-17PF '2803', flown by Mustafa Hafez during his second combat sortie on the morning of 5 June 1967 (he was claimed shot down - and credited as a 'kill' to one of Israeli pilots, although landing safely).

BTW, note that (contrary to usual instructions), the radome was rather 'blue-green' (than 'green').

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DP Casper's sheet is including that insignia - plus serial for MiG-17PF '2803', flown by Mustafa Hafez during his second combat sortie on the morning of 5 June 1967 (he was claimed shot down - and credited as a 'kill' to one of Israeli pilots, although landing safely).

BTW, note that (contrary to usual instructions), the radome was rather 'blue-green' (than 'green').

yes I know..... unluckily that is 1/72 and not 1/48....

does anyone have a relatively high resolution image of this No. 31 Sqn 'CrowBat'??

that way I could try to do the decals myself....

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Great stuff, making the Airfix release of the 17 ATM but OOB, bit of a filler queen but enjoying it.

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Oh, if you can print decals, no problem.

Do you want it in 'crisp', or 'worn out' condition?

Drop me a PM...

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