Japanese Aircaft in Luftwaffe Markings

[Nigel Bunker]

I know that Germany sent Bf 109E(s) and Fw 190(s) for evaluation in Japan. Does anybody know if any Japanese aircraft were sent to Germany in return?

[Brad]

The only one I know of is the E8N Dave the Germans got. They painted it in British markings and put it aboard the commerce raider Orion. They also attempted to acquire the rights to build the Ki-46, but I don't think they ever got their hands on the technical data.

[Mattlow]

Not that I'm aware of. I think there probably wasn't any Japanese tech. that the Germans had any great interest in.

Matt

EDIT - Brad proves me wrong.. Ki - 46 makes sense as it was, when it appeared very fast and perfectly suited to it's recon role. That would have looked good in Luftwaffe markings..

[Graham Boak]

The German attache in Japan was known to admire the Dinah, and there is a story that one was boxed for delivery. However there is no record of it actually being delivered, and I agree that by the time it would have reached Germany there was nothing that the home industry could not already match.

[Nick Millman]

Germany expressed an interest in the Ki-46 and there was discussion about licence building the type there with German engines but I do not know if any example had been sent. Not aware of any others although there were some liaison flights planned and attempted.

There is an interesting 2004 novel about a Zero being flown to Germany - 'Zero Over Berlin' by Ioh Sasaki . The novel is based on a supposed post-war encounter in which a former Luftwaffe maintenance man claimed to have seen a Zero in Berlin during the war.

The imported Fw 190 was also evaluated by pilots of the 47th Sentai when their 2nd Chutai was briefly based at the Army Air Test Centre at Tokorozawa in December 1943. Their former CO was serving as a test pilot there and demonstrated the German fighter. They were not impressed and thought their Ki-44 was better, although another test pilot there the well-known Yasuhiko Kuroe praised it greatly.

The Japanese also planned to licence build the Heinkel He 177 and even prepared factory facilities for that. A pattern aircraft was prepared for flight to Japan but never left Europe. They also had an example of the Me 410. The Arado 196 was flown in Japanese markings by German crews based in Malaya supporting U-boat operations.

A Stuka, the Taifun Bf-108, Heinkel He-100 and He-112 were other German types sent to Japan in various quantities.

On 29 June 1942 an Italian SM 75 flew to Japan from Rome and applied Japanese markings in Mongolia before flying on to Tokyo. This was supposed to be a proving trip for regular liaison flights and was intended to be non-stop but the Japanese insisted the aircraft land at Pao Tow Chen before proceeding. The crew maintained that they would have been able to make the flight non-stop.

In February 1944 KG200 assumed all long range missions but Hitler directed the head of his VIP flight to form a 'Japan Kommando' to establish an 'air bridge' to Japan. This unit was reportedly established as 14./TG4 and operated a modified Ju-290 A-5. In March 1944 three more Ju-290 aircraft were prepared for long range flights to China to be flown by former Lufthansa air crews. In August 1944 this unit absorbed Lufttransportstaffel 5 which had been formed from Lufttransportstaffel 290 also known as viermotorige-Transportstaffel. Whether any flights were actually made is still the subject of controversy with claims yea and nay. The Japanese were extremely secretive about such flights and diligent in destroying their own records.

[Stonar]

Most technology went from Germany to Japan rather than the other way.

It was governed by an economic agreement signed in January 1943. When transport links between the countries became 'difficult', that is being forced to resort largely to submarines, another manufacturing rights agreement was signed in March 1944. This allowed the transfer of the details of many manufacturing processes and rights to be transferred. The Germans must have been a bit worried by this as in December 1944 they proposed a patent rights agreement, but it was not signed before the end of the European war.

The US Military Intelligence Service prepared a lengthy (396 page) document imaginatively entitled "German Technical Aid To Japan" which covers in great detail what the Japanese were interested in and what they had acquired. The US seems to have been more worried about how this ex-German technology would benefit Japan post war.

Since I can hardly post nearly 400 pages this one will give a flavour of what the agreements had facilitated:

As far as aircraft go, the Americans reckoned that the only German aircraft the Japanese were capable of building at war's end was a version of the Me 163. To this end in July 1944 the Japanese had received drawings and plans for the plants required to manufacture the various components of the rocket fuel.

As far as the He 177 is concerned the US report states categorically that :

" there is however no evidence that ...Japan ever contemplated the purchase of manufacturing rights for this aircraft."

This leaves me wondering where the evidence that they had prepared factory facilities for He 177 production comes from. A General Kessler (I'd have to look him up), when interrogated, said that the Japanese were interested in the He 177 and intended to buy three of them. Two were on order in January 1945 but never left Germany. Of course information might have emerged since the report was published and I'm not sure when it was declassified.

Another unnamed source described as of "limited reliability" claimed that the Japanese were given two of the four engine version. These certainly never left Germany and the Americans seem sceptical of the claim.

Cheers

Steve

Edited January 10, 2015 by Stonar

[brewerjerry]

Hi

Somewhere i read that the japanese submarine I-8, left a E14Y seaplane at brest when it visited.

cheers

Jerry

[Graham Boak]

That's logical enough, what they could put into the space would be more valuable than an E14Y. What the Germans did with this gift is another matter.

The new Volume 2 Japanese Projects book has quite a lot on the Japanese intentions for the He177.

[Stonar]

General Ulrich Kessler was Chief of the Luftwaffe Liaison Staff in Tokyo and Air-Attache at the German Embassy in Tokyo. If anyone knew what the Japanese were hoping to do or achieve with the He 177 then he did.

Cheers

Steve

[Nick Millman]

General Ulrich Kessler was Chief of the Luftwaffe Liaison Staff in Tokyo and Air-Attache at the German Embassy in Tokyo. If anyone knew what the Japanese were hoping to do or achieve with the He 177 then he did.

Cheers

Steve

No, the Imperial Japanese Navy did! I'm planning to blog about the Japanese He-177 project so won't post all those details here. Only to observe that the report you refer to is fairly superficial on the subject and focuses more interest on Japanese jet and rocket aircraft development - but even misses a few details about that.

The factory was Hitachi Kokuki KK at Chiba, negotiations began in late 1942 and a Heinkel engineer Kurt Schmidt was seconded there in late 1943. The Heinkel/IJN connections began pre-war and were sustained throughout the conflict. Even as late as April 1945 an IJN mission was studying the He 162 and transmitting its dimensional data back to Japan.

Absence of evidence is just absence of evidence not evidence of absence.

Cheers

[Stonar]

No, the Imperial Japanese Navy did! I'm planning to blog about the Japanese He-177 project so won't post all those details here.

I'm sure Kessler would have known about any Japanese plans to buy manufacturing rights which is what the establishment of a manufacturing facility in Japan would imply. He must have been privy to any negotiations between the two governments. I find it odd that he would be so certain that no such agreement existed. There was obvious Japanese interest in the type.

It's not really absence of evidence, it's evidence from the deposition of the German Air-Attache in Tokyo that no such agreement existed. Is there any evidence to contradict this? I'm completely ignorant of the Japanese side of the affair, does anything survive from that ?

Cheers

Steve

[Greenshirt]

No, the Imperial Japanese Navy did! I'm planning to blog about the Japanese He-177 project so won't post all those details here.

Looking forward to that, Nick! I've always fancied an He-177 variant in IJN markings, even if just a whiff.

Tim

[Nick Millman]

"it's evidence from the deposition of the German Air-Attache in Tokyo"

Kessler was never in Tokyo. From March 1944 he was attached to the Air Force Command Group for training to become Air Attache and head of Air Force Liaison Staff to Japan. On 15 April 1945 he embarked on U-234 to sail to Japan to take up the post but the submarine surrendered at sea on 15 May 1945 so he never took up post. Kessler claimed to have maintained contact with Japanese Navy pilots throughout the war and that he had been the chief liaison officer to Japan for the past year but his former roles were in training and Air Force Command Atlantic (his background was in seaplanes and naval aviation). He was not in favour with the ruling clique and had been relieved of his previous command. Most of the information he provided about German-Japanese liaison since 1942 was acquired during his own training and briefings for the liaison role rather than first hand. Kessler admitted that he had not been able to maintain a direct exchange of technology with the Japanese because of disputes over methodology and transport routes but whether that was to really conceal a lack of knowledge is moot. Other statements he made under interrogation gave rise to questions about his credibility and he made some fantastic assertions about Soviet-Japanese collaboration and secret plans.

There were two Japanese naval officers on board U-234 with Kessler returning to Japan, one of them from the aviation branch, but they were given time to destroy all their documents completely and to commit suicide before the submarine surrendered.

The IJN plans for the aircraft were not clear cut and involved much of the usual hedging of bets and swapping horses in mid stream but ultimately they never managed a replacement for the G4M which had to soldier on until the end of the war.

FWIW I would not consider Kessler or the MIS report definitive sources on this subject. The report only mentions that there was no evidence (available to its authors) that the Japanese ever contemplated the purchase of manufacturing rights. Kessler is quoted in the report only as confirming Japanese 'special interest' in the type and their intention to purchase three sample aircraft.

[Nick Millman]

Looking forward to that, Nick! I've always fancied an He-177 variant in IJN markings, even if just a whiff.

Tim

There are several other Luftwaffe types that could be considered as legitimate 'whiffs' - Ta-152 (contract for rights to manufacture signed in March '45), Fw-200, Hs-129 (with better Japanese engines a potential counter-soviet deployment in Manchuria), Mistel combinations using Japanese designs - the obvious ones being a Zero + Ginga, Ki-61 + Ki-49 or Ki-67 as both IJN and IJA personnel were planned to be trained.

Great fun!

[Graham Boak]

The Japanese Projects Vol 2 has three pages on the subject, the text unfortunately mainly devoted to repeating the German history of the type but it does make the direct statement that a licence was signed. This was for a version with four separate engines, to be built by Hitachi. It states that an example of the coupled-engine design (an A-7 variant) was to be delivered to Japan, but never was.

[Stonar]

Quite apart from the materiel on the U-Boat there was a lot of German expertise.

Cheers

Steve

[Nick Millman]

Quite apart from the materiel on the U-Boat there was a lot of German expertise.

Cheers

Steve

Sorry, but I'm not really sure what your point is. If you look at it from the Japanese perspective it is doubtful that their air attachés and liaison staff would have been privy to all the RLM plans, discussions and considerations for future Luftwaffe aircraft design and development. The IJN had a long standing direct relationship with Heinkel that had begun just after the First World War. Heinkel and the RLM had clashed several times over the authority for the export of airframes and manufacturing rights with previous projects such as the He 111, which had been cancelled by the RLM after Heinkel had already signed an agreement - Erwin Hood provides more details in his book on the He 100. The He III debacle had embarrassed Japanese air attachés, Dr Heinkel was outraged by "RLM interference" and it is clear that the EHF sales office and RLM did not see eye to eye over how exports and manufacturing rights were to be administered. Heinkel's interests were mainly commercial but got caught up within Axis diplomacy. The negotiations for the He 177 were not directly between the RLM and IJN but between Heinkel and the IJN with the RLM trying to exert authority over them, all in the context of the He 177's problematic gestation within the Luftwaffe and historic mistrust between Heinkel and the RLM.

The Hitachi factory at Chiba had been established to build the He 100 for the IJN as the 'He-113', to be utilised as a land-based interceptor, and was ordered to be expanded with facilities for producing the He 177 when negotiations began at the end of 1942. But in terms of what was planned to be manufactured there a caveat of "or whichever bomber design was finally decided on to replace the G4M" should probably be added. FWIW I think the Japanese Projects Vol 2 assertion that four radial engines were planned for the Hitachi-built He 177 is less certain, but I'd rather elaborate on the reasons for that at my blog because they are complex and lengthy. Whether the manufacturing rights contract was actually signed with Heinkel as asserted in that book is also less certain, but there were definitely negotiations and an intention for that.