Dave Fleming Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Whilst idily looking to see if any Halifax flew with 'D' roundels, I came across this pic in the IWM files: BRITISH POST WAR AIRCRAFT. © IWM (ATP 19490A)IWM Non Commercial Licence Interesting as it's got both D roundels and a natural metal finish - and I can't find a reference for a Halifax unit with 'HE' as the code (although my copy of Combat Codes is out on loan at the mo). Anyone got any ideas? Th only other 'D' roundeled one I've found so far was in the Merrick book, and belonged to one of the radio establishments, with a revised nose profile. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Womby Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 According to an old SAM, I have, there were a few with D type roundels, Dave. Presumably they are in the Warpaint book. Do you have those? PP214 TCA-B is in wartime camo but with yellow training bands RT923 Y3-A is in coastal command MSG over white. But I hadn't seen a natural metal one - thanks for that. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedbird Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 (edited) Is it my eyes or fo the roundels look french? Looking at the tone the outer ring on the fuselage rounfel looks much lighter than the onner one, much to light to translate to blue. Look at the markings on the stb tail plane and compare it to the matkings on the port inner tail plane, there is a distinct tonal difference. .I've no explanation or answers about this halibag but id be interested to know about it. Sorry about the spellong chaps, im not dyslexic, I just have bl...dy fat fingers and small keys on my mobile..oh and predictive text that only seems to know pigion english. Edited January 10, 2015 by speedbird 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don McIntyre Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 At first glance I thought they were Indian AF markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 (edited) The aircraft appears to be an A.Mk.VII Dave. Although the codes have me puzzled in being used on this aircraft, 263 Squadron gave up the code 'HE' in May 1950 when front line Units were "de-coded", this photo leads me to believe that it was taken between 1950 and 1952 and that the aircraft is A.Mk.VII PP350 which was used by the RAE for dropping trials. Most A.Mk.VII's were declared obsolete in February 1946 but that one was kept on. If you look carefully, the object under the roundel is the parachute exit hole, at the tail appear to be fixtures for glider towing and the undersurface of the rear fuselage looks as if it has TT markings applied (black/yellow diagonal stripes). Also - if you look just in front of the fin and to the rear of the code 'H', there appears to be a darker area of paint. May I suggest a yellow 'T' band. One other item. PP350 was alleged to have had a Lancaster Frazer-Nash rear turret fitted for aerial photography but to me, it looks as if the standard BP unit is fitted. An interesting photo indeed - well spotted. Dennis PS It will not be natural metal but aluminium painted. Edited January 10, 2015 by sloegin57 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dambuster Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 And is the braced pole on the right part of a system to suspend a target towing cable for an in flight pick-up? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 And is the braced pole on the right part of a system to suspend a target towing cable for an in flight pick-up? Peter No Peter I think that it may have had something to do with the large Signals Engineering Unit that was based there for many years, possibly a rig to train aerial erectors. A bit obscure but if anyone has a more up to date record of RAF codes, post war, then would they look up and ascertain if the Airborne Forces Experimental Establishment was ever allocated the code 'HE'. 263 Squadron gave it up in May 1950 and the AFEE, based at Beaulieu, was absorbed, lock stock and Halifaxes, by the RAE in the middle of September 1950 and the aircraft may have retained the code. Just thinking and typing out loud whilst I plough through various publications !!. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody37 Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Not sure about it being PP350, from these pictures, it appears that PP350 was still in combat colours in 1951: http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1435492/ http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK%20-%20Air%20Force/Handley%20Page%20HP-61%20Halifax%20A7/1578233/L/&width=1136&height=716&photo_nr=&sid=&set_photo_album=hide http://www.na3t.org/air/photo/AB01277 Interesting picture though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Fascinating picture: the aircraft could be that described as T Mk.6 RG871 of the Parachute Test Flight at Henlow in Combat Codes p189. The unit is also recorded as having Dakota C Mk.3s. I must admit not being familiar with the designation T Mk.6, but that does look like a yellow band aft of the H. And is that yellow/black tug bands under the fuselage? There is the tow attachment aft of the tailwheel. Checking in RAF Training and Support Units, this gives Dakota C Mk.III as THE, and also Halifax VI, A IX (RG871 THE). Possibly the Flight only ever had the one aircraft at a time? According to The Halifax File, RG871 was built as an Mk.VI, has no recorded history before becoming 6859M. Mk.IXs were RTxxx serialled. There would be nothing unlikely in having the parachute hole modification on a Mk.VI, and presumably it would be necessary for the job. However RT868 is recorded as spending time at Henlow. So it could be either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV107 Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 (edited) Not sure about it being PP350, from these pictures, it appears that PP350 was still in combat colours in 1951: http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1435492/ http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK%20-%20Air%20Force/Handley%20Page%20HP-61%20Halifax%20A7/1578233/L/&width=1136&height=716&photo_nr=&sid=&set_photo_album=hide http://www.na3t.org/air/photo/AB01277 Interesting picture though Didn't the Central Landing Establishment operate Halifaxes at Henlow? ISTR that the last Halibag in RAF service was operated by CLE. Edit - I was interrupted by a phone call, so this is not a follow-up to Graham, just a much, much less informative and infinitely less detailed version of his response... Edited January 10, 2015 by XV107 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaddy Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Looks like a Dakota sitting in the background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 (edited) The Central Landing School/Establishment became the Airborne Forces Establishment in 1941, splitting into the Airborne Forces Experimental Establishment and the No.1 Parachute Training School in 1942.. The AFEE ended in 1950 becoming D Flight A&AEE at Boscombe Down. EDIT: the no.1 Parachute and Gliding School became the Parachute Training School in 1950, and operated the last RAF Halifax, A Mk.IX RT936. It was then based at Abingdon, and having got rid of most of its Mk.IXs before 1950 had to take on a few more, of which RT936 was the last. However its code was MODx. These Halifaxes aren't mentioned in the RAF Training and Support Units book. It might be worth adding that THE was the code for the unit - if it had more than one aircraft then individual letters would also be applied. So could this aircraft be THE.T? Or were they just not that bothered? Edited January 10, 2015 by Graham Boak 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old thumper Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Is it my eyes or fo the roundels look french? Looking at the tone the outer ring on the fuselage rounfel looks much lighter than the onner one, much to light to translate to blue. Look at the markings on the stb tail plane and compare it to the matkings on the port inner tail plane, there is a distinct tonal difference. .I've no explanation or answers about this halibag but id be interested to know about it. Sorry about the spellong chaps, im not dyslexic, I just have bl...dy fat fingers and small keys on my mobile..oh and predictive text that only seems to know pigion english. Sometimes red looks darker than blue in black and white pictures, there is a reason for this, I just can't remember what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Dave this is my Halifax Met.6 of 202 Sqn RAF Aldergrove John 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 (edited) Parachute Test Flight at Henlow,....... a yellow band aft of the H,........and is that yellow/black tug bands under the fuselage? There is the tow attachment aft of the tailwheel. Checking in RAF Training and Support Units, this gives Dakota C Mk.III as THE, and also Halifax VI, A IX (RG871 THE). Possibly the Flight only ever had the one aircraft at a time? According to The Halifax File, RG871 was built as an Mk.VI, has no recorded history before becoming 6859M. Mk.IXs were RTxxx serialled. There would be nothing unlikely in having the parachute hole modification on a Mk.VI, and presumably it would be necessary for the job. However RT868 is recorded as spending time at Henlow. So it could be either... I think you`ve hit the nail on the head there Graham with all of the above,.......personally I think that it is RG871, coded HE-T, from the above unit. Great photo and find Dave,.......just in time for the Revell Mk.III too! Cheers Tony Edited January 11, 2015 by tonyot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 (edited) You'll need to nick an twin-50 rear turret from somewhere, that's one that Revell don't offer - unless they have redone the transparencies too. The Hasegawa postwar boxing has one, strictly a Frazer Nash not a Boulton Paul but the two were very similar externally. Does it look to you that they are about to do an engine change? The reason red looks darker is usually the use of orthochromatic film: yellow will also look black or at least darker. However, the use was dying out and as the red doesn't look very dark anyway this is probably panchromatic film and the slightly lighter shades of postwar markings. Perhaps faded a bit. Postwar French aircraft would had rudder stripes not fin flashes. There are some very interesting postwar French Halifaxes including overall white RG874 H7.C which crashed in Argentina in 1947 but was still around in 1971! Now that would have been worth preserving, had anyone cared enough in those days. Edited January 10, 2015 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 Interesting stuff, thanks guys. david, I have the SM somewhere, but I'll dig it out. Canberra Kid - ice one, I've seen a profile of that, but I'd love to see a photo! The 202 site has a profile of one in bomber camo with D roundels as well. I wonder if any of the 224 Squadron aircraft had them, the last one still had C roundels, but they were the last Halifaxes in frontline service. Dennis, yes, of course aluminium. I think I agree with Graham that the underside IS yellow and black stripes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Dave this is my Halifax Met.6 of 202 Sqn RAF Aldergrove John John,.........you know very well that this is my favourite Halibag model of all time,.....those dropped flaps are just the icing on the cake! It is way up there with your Snoopy Herk,....both stunning models! Cheers Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Interesting stuff, thanks guys. david, I have the SM somewhere, but I'll dig it out. Canberra Kid - ice one, I've seen a profile of that, but I'd love to see a photo! The 202 site has a profile of one in bomber camo with D roundels as well. I wonder if any of the 224 Squadron aircraft had them, the last one still had C roundels, but they were the last Halifaxes in frontline service. Dennis, yes, of course aluminium. I think I agree with Graham that the underside IS yellow and black stripes Thanks Dave, I will have a look today to see if I can find one, but I have a feeling I just worked from the SAM profile. John,.........you know very well that this is my favourite Halibag model of all time,.....those dropped flaps are just the icing on the cake! It is way up there with your Snoopy Herk,....both stunning models! Cheers Tony I thought you'd like to see the old girl again Tony any excuse John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I've found a photo of Y3-A in the same sachem as my model, it's in the Warpaint No.46 HP.Halifax on page 31 at the top. There is also a photo of Y3-Q with the same roundels but in Bomber Command colours. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) Y3.A was an A Mk.IX. It first appeared in an IPMS mag as a photo, and the artwork has popped up in several places since, including the SAM issue dedicated to the Halifax. Presumably this is the very same artwork as in the Guideline booklet? I've seen a suggestion (somewhere?) that this was used as a crew trainer, not having the full Met. mods. There were a number of Met Mk.3s that appeared before the true production Mk.VIs, and at this time they should have been in Coastal White too. I don't know of any photos of these at all, but Merrick does have X9.F LV876 in bomber black. The B Mk.IIIs (GR Mk.IIIs?) in Coastal hands remained in bomber black because they were operating up the Norwegian narrows at night, the Germans having stopped attempting to move in daylight. Aircraft of the Empire Air Navigation School postwar retained bomber black with postwar roundels, large white codes and names. There are photos in Merrick's latest. Edited January 11, 2015 by Graham Boak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Sometimes red looks darker than blue in black and white pictures, there is a reason for this, I just can't remember what it is. Orthochrome film does that. Wez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2wheels Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) Can't remember which magazine I cut this from but it shows RT923 after it hit the BABS van while landing at Aldergrove. Although Ive also seen the accident recorded as being on the 6th Sept 1949. Edited January 11, 2015 by 2wheels 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanflyer Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 BRITISH POST WAR AIRCRAFT. © IWM (ATP 19490A)IWM Non Commercial Licence With regard to this pic, I've just shown it to my Dad who was on the Parachute Test Unit at RAF Henlow in 1952, and he remembers there being a Halifax there at the time but which was unserviceable. It didn't stop him having a scrounge around inside it though, and he distinctly remembers climbing over the wing spar inside the fuselage. They also had one Dakota there for dropping trials, and the Dak beyond the Halifax in the picture is very probably the one he had his first ever flight in, and subsequently had several of his parachutes pushed out of. His abiding memory of the place though, is the shove ha'penny board - that being the only way of passing the time on a fairly quiet posting... That's made his day, thanks for bringing this up... Cheers, Dean 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Two other possibilities had been scrapped in 1950 (RT815) and 1951 (RT858) respectively, with the majority of the Mk.IXs with the PTS being scrapped in 1949, so it seems most likely that RG871 is the aircraft your Dad was inside. The Halifax File doesn't quote a date for its transfer to a maintenance airframe, but it doesn't place it at Henlow either. We know it was there from another source, so there may be other "hidden" alternatives. If you Dad comes up with any other memories of it at all, we'd love to read about them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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