1/72 - MiG-21 Fishbed by Eduard

[Troy Smith]

25 minutes ago, caughtinthemiddle said:

That's probably because the 1/48 scale Indian Service boxing was one of the longest selling out limited editions that Eduard has ever released. I also got one when it had hit the market in 2012, and I recall that when I decided to sell it around 2017 or 2018, it was still available in their webshop, so it certainly wasn't a killer...

So nothing to do with the versions they picked....

https://www.eduard.com/Eduard/MiG-21MF-BIS-in-the-Indian-service-1-48.html

 

as has been stated, the MiG-21 that Eduard have failed to produce (and in 1/48th easily could) is the FL, used in actual combat extensively by various Arab AF and the Indian AF.

I doubt they had access to the information below, but as things do get 'lost' here, here some great IAF MiG-21 FL pics

 

  

On 04/05/2019 at 06:46, Linescriber said:

Fundamentally, there were several versions to the "Tiger stripes" never intended as stripes!!. Basically, a green household paint hand applied over NMF in various patterns. Some were even small strokes like WW2 Luftwaffe mottling!! In the East more formal, overall camo was applied as the Migs were used almost exclusively in the ground attack role.  BTW C750 seen first left was the aircraft that shot down Wg Cdr Mervyn Middlecoat in an F-104 of PAF's 9 Sqn during the 1971 war

.

 

 

This T-77 suffered a nose wheel collapse during a night landing on the second day of the war. It shows the rough application of the paint.

 

 

 

 

 

from this thread

 

[Dennis_C]

4 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

as has been stated, the MiG-21 that Eduard have failed to produce (and in 1/48th easily could) is the FL, used in actual combat extensively by various Arab AF and the Indian AF.

Was FL version actually used by Arab states? I believe FL was a version manufactured in India for Indian AF only. Some first FLs were manufactured and stayed in the USSR but I can't find references that these were delivered to Mid East. For instance Egypt used Soviet-produced F-13, PF, PFM, and then went to MF.

Same about Vietnam - another MiG operator that produced most air-to-air kills with the type. No FL were ever used in Vietnam.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Dennis_C

[RidgeRunner]

That’s a real shame :(. I have an RV MiG-21bis with Indian marks so I should work something out from that. 

 

Martin

[Petr]

I guess You can build indian FL if you combine overtrees PF & PFM (proper wing and proper hump and larger rudder, am I right?) and these decals: https://www.armycast.cz/gb/home/225-acd-72037-the-fishbeds-vol2.html

 

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Petr

[Stilwell]

With a bit of bodging  and a blind eye to panel line detail, it should be possible to make the MiG-21FL standard from the MiG-21PFM sprues.

 

The early cockpit interior, ejection seat, armoured windscreen  and canopy which are applicable to the –PF and included on the sprues in the –PFM kit should be used. Not sure how accurate the interior is, but it shouldn’t be far off. Because side panels of the windscreen on the –PFM extends further down the sides of the fuselage than the bottom of the –PF canopy, there is a gap on each side that will have to be filled, but a couple of shims will do the trick. The panel lines may be a bit off, but no worse than the Fujimi or cross-kitted Bilek alternatives, and it looks like the cockpit sills stayed at around the same height on the early and later canopies.

 

The other big change is modifying the later Boundary Layer Control  (BLC, or ducting air from the back of the compressor over the flaps, otherwise known as “blown”) flaps used on the -PFM into the earlier Fowler flap type used on the –PF and the –FL. The Fowler flaps were rectangular, but the blown flaps on production aircraft had a step on each side to produce a trailing edge of greater span than the leading edge. Which produces a good recognition feature – on the later standard, the inboard edge of the flaps are adjacent to the side of the fuselage. On the earlier standard, there is a fixed piece of trailing edge between the inboard edge of the flap and the side of the fuselage. And with the flaps retracted, this fixed piece extends rearwards of the flap trailing edge, by around a millimetre in 1:72 scale. So, if you see a MiG-21 in plan view, if the trailing edge of the wing goes straight up to the side of the fuselage you have a late wing, but if there is a step between the trailing edge and the fuselage, it is an early wing.

 

To convert the –PFM flap to a Fowler flap, remove the actuator fairing at around mid span on the underside of the wing, take a pair of flaps and cut down the extensions on either side to make a rectangular shape (the kit includes two sets of flaps, one of which has a panel line around the actuator fairing which I assume is local strengthening associated with the actuator, so use the other set). With material salvaged from the second set of flaps or some plasticard, fill the gap that now exists on the piece of trailing edge between the flap and aileron. Then stick the outboard flap track fairing onto the underside of this fixed section – part H4 on the port side, H3 on the starboard. The location tang will need to come off, and the back end should align with the trailing edge of the wing.

 

On the inboard end of the flap, use salvaged material to form the fixed trailing edge, extending around a millimetre behind the trailing edge of the flap. The inboard flap tracks on the undersides of the wings, as shown in Laurent’s  photo, are H1 on the port side, H2 for starboard. They are designed to sit in a recesses on the –PF kit, so will need trimming down to sit flush at the leading edge. The length of the flaps from front to back is the same for both types of flaps on the underside, but on the top of the wing, the Fowler flaps are shorter. The –PF kit has a span-wise panel line around where the front edge of the –PFM flap is, but the front edge of the flap itself on the upper wing surface of the –PF is ~6 millimetres in front of the trailing edge. Again, there are some detail differences in panel lines on the wing, plus a little fairing on each side between the front edge of the flap and the fuselage, but not readily noticeable.

 

If you are doing an Indian –FL, you then have to decide what era you want to represent, and whether to fit the gun pod, the angle of attack sensor and fairings on the port side of the nose, the outboard wing pylons or the VHF & IFF antennae in front of the windscreen.

 

If you are cross kitting the –PF and the –PFM, you will be left over with a later fuselage and wing, with an early spine, fin and ventral fin. For mine, I am looking at fitting the early cockpit and canopy (filling the gaps as required), then using the Quickboost sets intended for the Fujimi MF to provide a later ventral fin, and a parabrake housing from the spine & fin set to bodge onto the –PF fin to produce a MiG-21PFS: early cockpit, later BLC wing and the only Soviet production version with a parabrake in the early narrow-chord fin.

 

    Jonathan.

[Laurent]

5 hours ago, Dennis_C said:

I believe FL was a version manufactured in India for Indian AF only. Some first FLs were manufactured and stayed in the USSR but I can't find references that these were delivered to Mid East.

AFAIK the FL was produced for non-aligned customers so some arab countries received some. I think I saw some photos some years ago but I don't remember where... oh there's an Afghan FL on Twitter apparently !

 

A Soviet aerobatic team used FLs...

 

Apparently USSR got rid of some their MiG-21PFS at some point...

 

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Laurent

[Stilwell]

> Was FL version actually used by Arab states?

 

The Harpia books refer to MiG-21FLs used by Iraq, Syria and Egypt.

 

The Gordon / Dexter / Komissarov book doesn’t mention –FLs, only –PFs, PFSs and PFMs.

But on page 599 there is a photo of an Iraqi gate guard, captioned as an “early MiG-21PFM”.

It has the later wide chord fin with parabrake housing, but it has a one piece canopy. Looking at the wing, it appears to have the flap track fairing on the underside of the wing between the flap and aileron, and a fixed section of wing trailing edge between the flap and the fuselage extending behind the trailing edge of the flap. The photo isn’t too clear, but these features suggest a Fowler flap rather than a blown flap. Early canopy, late fin and early wing is the correct configuration for a MiG-21FL. Whether t was called as such, by the Soviets or the Iraqis, is another matter.

 

   Jonathan.

[Dennis_C]

4 hours ago, Laurent said:

A Soviet aerobatic team used FLs...

Yes. FLs even strangely participated in air parades on the Red Square. These were from the batch intended for India before local production started, but were not shipped and diverted for VVS use for political reasons. 

 

Afghan is interesting. Who knows whether this can be an Indian-built one?

Edited May 26, 2020 by Dennis_C

[Dennis_C]

3 hours ago, Stilwell said:

Was FL version actually used by Arab states?

 

I think reality was complex and some FLs could end up on the Middle East. But my point was more about whether Eduard made a big miss by not packaging an FL version? I think they do miss Indian variant that was indeed important from airwar perspective inclusive. But do they miss sales for Arab-Israeli conflicts? Not that much as anything between 21F-13 and 21bis was there. 

[Stilwell]

> But my point was more about whether Eduard made a big miss by not packaging an FL version?

 

Not for the avid modellers who are going to buy both -PF and –PFM kits to kitbash an –FL, then use decals from DP Casper or Begemot to get the markings.

 

Eduard can always do a special edition, including the PFM spine / fin / ventral fin sprue in the –PF kit, plus appropriate decals.

 

Or, if they think there is the demand, do a Brassin conversion with resin spine / fin / ventral fin for an early –FL, and add resin parts for the AOA sensor and VHF aerial for a later Indian –FL (I think the PF kit retains the outboard pylons for the –MF boxing that were added by the IAF to their FLs).

 

Plus, given Eduard’s liking for doing multi-kit sets, I am expecting them to do a combined –PF and –PFM boxing in Czechoslovakian Air Force colours (I think the sprue layout means they only need to include one clear sprue and one H sprue to cover both aircraft). That would cover one –FL as well.   

 

So while Eduard haven’t deliberately kitted a MiG-21FL yet (The CzAF didn’t use them, so probably not a priority to Eduard), there are options to make an –FL kit available. After the more “enthusiastic” modellers have shelled out on two kits.

[Hook]

21 hours ago, Stilwell said:

The Gordon / Dexter / Komissarov book

I really wish this would be updated and reprinted, like the MiG-29/31 and Su-27 volumes. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Linescriber]

The MiG 21 FL was simply the PF with the broad-chord fin (5.2 sq m) the first model to have it, and was given a new product number Izdeliye or Type-77.  It had the derated R-13-300 engine, ADF without DME and no capability to carry the radar homing R-2s AAMs.The tail chute was dorsal ie; at the base of the fin and not below the engine.  Also, it retained the forwarded opening canopy that was designed to encapsulate the pilot during supersonic ejections.  It was the "Sports model" of all the versions. India received 197 FLs of which 38 were flyaway and the rest were built from 1966-74.

[Troy Smith]

23 minutes ago, Linescriber said:

. India received 197 FLs of which 38 were flyaway and the rest were built from 1966-74.

Did Indian built FL's have English language stencilling factory applied?  I presume the Soviet built had Cyrillic, but I have a memory some Arab MiG's had English stencilling used?

Thank you

[caughtinthemiddle]

In the 2020-2022, you may expect the following 1/72 MiGs from Eduard:  MiG-21R, bis, SMT.
They are also going to release MiG-21F/F-13 in 1/48 during this period, so one may expect it in 1/72 sometime in 2024 or so
Source: The Boss himself at: https://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?p=2325392#p2325392

[Linescriber]

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Did Indian built FL's have English language stencilling factory applied?  I presume the Soviet built had Cyrillic, but I have a memory some Arab MiG's had English stencilling used?

Thank you

Yes all the ones built by HAL had english. However, bought out items like the gun sight, radar controls, ADF, R/T, IFF, the Undercarriage and flaps control panel, Ejection seat controls, Oxygen, the Compass. Rxternal stenciling was all english.

[Troy Smith]

39 minutes ago, Linescriber said:

However, bought out items like the gun sight, radar controls, ADF, R/T, IFF, the Undercarriage and flaps control panel, Ejection seat controls, Oxygen, the Compass.

Should this read, however imported Soviet components were in stencilled in Cyrillic ?  

 

5 hours ago, Linescriber said:

India received 197 FLs of which 38 were flyaway and the rest were built from 1966-74.

Is there a list of serials of which were Soviet built and which were HAL built....

 

Does raise the problem though AFAIK there is not a set of English language stencils available for the MiG-21 ..... 

 

Thanks again

T

[Hook]

3 hours ago, caughtinthemiddle said:

In the 2020-2022, you may expect the following 1/72 MiGs from Eduard:  MiG-21R, bis, SMT.
They are also going to release MiG-21F/F-13 in 1/48 during this period, so one may expect it in 1/72 sometime in 2024 or so
Source: The Boss himself at: https://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?p=2325392#p2325392

Excellent.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Linescriber]

11 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Should this read, however imported Soviet components were in stencilled in Cyrillic ?  

 

Is there a list of serials of which were Soviet built and which were HAL built....

 

Does raise the problem though AFAIK there is not a set of English language stencils available for the MiG-21 ..... 

 

Thanks again

T

Oh Bugger!! Yes all these were Cyrillic!!

[Aardvark]

On 5/30/2020 at 4:06 PM, Troy Smith said:

I presume the Soviet built had Cyrillic, but I have a memory some Arab MiG's had English stencilling used?

For your money any language stencil!!! 😁

I don't know about MiG-21 (export MiG-21 no interesting for me) but in Russian modeller's magazine "M-Hobby" was published walkaround

Soviet AF MiG-29 with red star insignia & English stencil! 😁 This hybrid was born when foreign buyer

refused his order.

 

 

B.R.

Serge

[RidgeRunner]

On 26 May 2020 at 4:54 PM, Stilwell said:

After the more “enthusiastic” modellers have shelled out on two kits.

Then regard me as enthusiastic ;). They are sitting patiently on my study shelf ready for the sprue cutters, sanders and cement . ArmyCast decals in the post too :).

 

Martin

 

 

[RidgeRunner]

From Eduard troday: "Hello Martin, this kit is not in the plans for the current year and the plans for the next one are yet to be announced, so I do not have any schedule for this kit to give you yet.
Have a nice day.".

 

Martin

 

 

[MiG-Mech]

10 hours ago, RidgeRunner said:

From Eduard troday: "Hello Martin, this kit is not in the plans for the current year and the plans for the next one are yet to be announced, so I do not have any schedule for this kit to give you yet.
Have a nice day.".

 

Martin

 

 

Which kit are you taling about ?

[RidgeRunner]

1 hour ago, MiG-Mech said:

Which kit are you taling about ?

Oops, sorry. The MiG-21bis 1/72

[Andrew]

3 hours ago, RidgeRunner said:

Oops, sorry. The MiG-21bis 1/72

Thanks for posing the question though Martin. I too am looking forward to that version's release.

 

Andrew.

[Hook]

On 6/30/2020 at 3:01 AM, Andrew said:

 I too am looking forward to that version's release.

As well as the SMT in Gentlemen's Scale.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre