Ex-FAAWAFU Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 ... short fuselage plus un-raked UC legs give it a Norman Wisdom look when it should be more Terry Thomas!! Jonners What a perfect description! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev67 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I think it is excellent that someone such as John and Dave with all their knowledge and experience, have given their time to help other modellers on here 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Keller Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 This is GREAT. Thank you very much! Al Keller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 I think it is excellent that someone such as John with all his knowledge and experience, has given his time to help other modellers on here Thank you for the kind words.I think the thread title says a lot. I don't know how Dave Collins interest started but my affair with the Hornet started when a friend in Canada Dave Askett wanted to scratch a 1.32 scale Hornet but the more he played with the published figures (on DH origin GA's) for the tail up, tail down lengths the more the geometry wouldn't match. He then asked me to comment. The more we looked into the various drawings and sources, Putnams, Janes, Air Training Gazette, DH GA's etc, ad infinitum, so many differing dimensions came up so It was clear something was really amiss. Then the drawings, any trained eye could see immediately that certain areas were quite wrong and sadly they are still .being published in so called reference material. ' A trained eye'! One of my diversions when I was in the RAF was Aircraft recognition, something I'd started as a boy "spotter" and I was part of and captained successful RAF Wittering teams in many major competitions over many years. I believe this and my 'carve from solid' modelling background and a basic training as an Art student has given me a good eye for shapes. I digress. I had previously had a similar problem with the Night Fighter Meteor dimensions and so the search began for better material. This came in dribs and drabs. it came from modellers and after I had a letter published in Aeroplane, one chap in Aberdeen sent me a copy of a document he'd found in a skip at Hatfield many years before. Another chap John Ransome, was building a flying model of the Hornet and suddenly 'bingo' he had a load of stuff he would share. Along the way I met Dave Collins and here was a fine engineer and a man who knew the aeroplane backwards and he had copies of the AP's and the first confirmation from the leading particulars of the dimensions we were looking for. I then had to sort out drawings for model purposes. So this is the culmination of all this knowledge. which I'm happy to share sorting out problems like this. It's easy to accuse Trumpeter of slack research but if they get Datafiles and drawings published in world class magazines, which are wrong and the editorial staff didn't spot the glaring errors, who can blame them. John 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ththtttu7 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) I studied for my degree in aeronautical engineering at Hatfield 20 years ago, home of dehavilland.... I couldn't help but being impressed by their advanced designs from the 40's, in application of innovative materials and technology within such wonderful looking types. In most cases, their performance outstripped the competition accordingly. As soon as I discovered the hornet was extinct, I set about collecting parts and information to try and bring something back.... I'm 15 years into the project this month, and I've met a lot of interesting folk along the way. I have enough information to build a complete fuselage, but there is never enough money! In a smaller way, but still as important co-writing a book and articles, creating correct models, and profile artwork will help. Edited January 14, 2015 by David A Collins 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 I've made a start on the nacelles and this part will not be easy. Overall they are too short by 3 mm. the problems are compounded by the wheel bays being too far forwards (by 3 mm). Much of the 3 mm shortfall is in the actual engine section. But, because of the complex curves, the asymmetry of the two nacelle halves and the exhaust recesses it is difficult to find where to extend them. This is the first stage. The nacelles are too deep by a 1 mm at the bottom edge adjacent to the front of the wheel bay and again at the rear. I put the two halves together and filed some plastic off the bottom line thus reducing the thickness to about 1/2 mm over 4 mm length. I then cut some pieces of 4 mm X 15 thou strip and glued a piece inside the front edge of the bay so that 3.mm was showing. When this was dry I cut strips of 3 mm X 20 thou and glued these on top of the first pieces. When they'd dried I sanded them to the profile. At the rear end of the wheel bay I removed 3 mm from the back edge, thus moving the wheel bay opening back by 3 mm. More anon as I have a brown and white spaniel saying "take me for a walk or I chew this grey fuselage thingy". John 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Well the nacelles are a nightmare and there's no simple answer to lengthening them. So if your patience is running out you have the option of saying enough is enough and live with the shortfall. After much perspicacity I elected to use/combine the engines of two kits because I want a commercial solution which in the end will be much cheaper than my method. As I said earlier why not trash two kits for the same effort. I cut (vertically) one set of nacelles 2.5 mm forward of the top join where the fixed nacelle projects from the wing, removing most of the engine, I the then cut the engine off the other set exactly at the join as below. Next I added the shallow 'blisters' to the tops of each cowl by punching them on a soft surface from the inside with a tool I made. Don't try this a home it was nearly a disaster, but I got lucky. The nacelle on the metal plate is ready to join. The items above are not glued yet Often in stead of filling and filing I will bend the plastic (only on soft plastic) with a small pair of flat nose smooth pliers and tease it to the contour I want. When joined it will leave the exhaust 'trough' too long so this will need a adjusting with filler at the ends. It was at this point I realised I could go two ways. One is for the modeller to join the nacelles to the wings and cut them off at the correct place and I provide a pair of Resin engines for you to fix and fill. Or. I make complete injected plastic nacelles the same as the kit but corrected. What say you? John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike romeo Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 John, Once again thanks for your efforts on this. Assuming I ever manage to get the money together, I look forward to ordering at least one of your Trumpeter Hornet correction sets. I just had a thought: you don't have an 'arrangement' with the Trumpeter tool-maker, do you? Bung him a few quid and get him to make some errors in the tool that you can correct . . . On second thoughts, I think not. Otherwise, you'd have got him to do some more easily correctable errors. regards. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Puff Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 One vote for complete nacelles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 John you carry on with the plastic I'll take the spaniel for his constitutional Fabulous modelling in depth too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniele0865 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Very interesting thread. Thank you for your effort. I'm looking forward to see your set ready and I think I will need a couple at least. I vote for the complete nacelle replacement. Regards Daniele Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I also would prefer a "drop fit" full nacelle to a portion that needs to be cut and shut. Besides, you've got to address the wheel well/ main gear, right? I'm curious how the CA will compare, but hard to judge until I have a Trumped up Hornet to introduce it to. My resin example is ARBA, by the way- never can remember. To think how thrilled I was to see that at Hannants one day- then having to choose between that, the He-100D, and maybe some other distant runner up. Now we have the luxury of wondering which injection kit is the better starting point! Oh, I'd better stop before someone thinks I'm defending anything.... bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Kunac-Tabinor Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Hi John - just been looking at the nacelles against your plans (cheers!) and I think you are being polite using the phrase "nightmare"!!!! There's not much wiggle room in there to extend is there? - but Im just wondering if "some" of extension should come at the very front of the nacelle forward of the exhaust trough. Im also wondering how to re contour the lower cowl line to give that very subtle concave curve to the front. Hmmmm. On the plus side - its good to know the windscreen correction I did on Saturday "by eye" seems to match your plans. ( Im such an impatient so & so). This is going to be fun!! Cheers Jonners 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 John you carry on with the plastic I'll take the spaniel for his constitutional Fabulous modelling in depth too WALKIES, or the good one gets it too!.. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 A little more progress, the engine back plates are now exactly 2 mm in front of the tip of the nose. Before the mods, they were in line. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Very Interesting ! Ordered mine can't wait to get them Will look great next to my Mossie's on the shelf Trouble is like the Vampire , whirlwind and F106 kits they seem to sell out quickly worldwide for quite a considerable time upon release and one has to be nimble to get them early ! looks like being a busy year with all the new releases coming ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Jon K-T Yes I was being polite.I did say the keyword would be compromise There is another problem which I will try to sort out. It's the fact the nacelles do not centre vertically as do the real aircraft. They cant out slightly.I still have a little shaping to do on the nacelles which I will do with Milliput. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 As a small diversion here is an extract from a letter from a former member of a Hornet unit I have on file, and should be of interest to the paint police. John 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali62 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Hi John Great work and glad to see it all coming together as it were, I know and feel the pain, as I have had similar problems in the past, it is so bad where to start, and compromises need to be reached, 100% behind you on that point. As for the nacelle option, I would far rather have a complete nacelle, in what ever form or material it takes, and it would be well worth for the modellers to pay a little extra. Looking out for the next exciting instalment. cheers Ali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody37 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I too like the complete injection nacelle option much the same as you did with the Halifax. Excellent work so far Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniele0865 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I love this thread. It's full of unvaluable informations. I'm curious about how the HPH 1/32 Hornet F3 compares with your correct data and plans. Apart from the already discussed nose shape issue, is the rest of the airframe dimensionally correct or are there errors in lenght or tail planes span for example? It would be interesting to have a complete tweak list also for this bigger kit. Daniele Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 Daniele I don't have one of the HpH Hornet kit but given the poor information and drawings that has been published on the Hornet I would suspect it will have similar issues to all the other Hornet kits. I know Airscale was addressing these issues in another WIP thread aided by David and my self but I think the project is in abeyance at the moment. A quick check on length in 1/32 scale is 364.5 mm from spinner tip to tail tip for a Mk.3. For a Mk.21 it's 380.2 mm in 1/32. in 1/48 the latter should be 253.5 mm long. There are three tailplane spans, or more correctly there are two tailplanes and three elevators. The Mk.1 originally had a combined span of 16' 6" which the Trumpeter kit has. The Mk.3 had a combined span of 18' 1.4" and I believe some Mk.1's were retrofitted with these also, and finally the NF Mk.21 had the extended elevator to 18'9.7". Just times any dimensions in my 1/48 thread by 1.5 for 1/32. A quick reference to some very useful info is the Verdun publishing book DH Hornet & Sea Hornet by Buttler, Collins and Derry. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ththtttu7 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 As a small diversion here is an extract from a letter from a former member of a Hornet unit I have on file, and should be of interest to the paint police. John Any chance of a copy of the complete letter John? I'll dig out a photo showing a camouflaged Hornet (41 or 19SQN) that shows this difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 David No problem. This was originally in the archive of the the late Mike Eacock which he gave me some time ago. Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniele0865 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 John, thank you very much for the data provided. I have the Verdun publishing book DH Hornet & Sea Hornet and I can recommend it to everyone. Daniele Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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