Spitfire B Wing Questions

[Sky Pilot]

I have the following questions regarding the Spitfire B wing :-

a) Were fabric covered ailerons ever installed on B wings fitted to Mk I and Mk II Spitfires.

Did the B wing on Mk Ib Spitfires house just two cannons or two cannons and four machine guns.

Any advice would be appreciated.


John

Edited December 24, 2014 by Sky Pilot

[louiex2]

Sky Pilot- BM has a thread for Spitfire questions and you might find your answer there already or get a quicker reply. The folks that hang out there are some of the top Spitfire experts on the face of the planet. Here's the link http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234952528-all-the-spitfire-questions-you-want-to-ask-here/

[Troy Smith]

I have the following questions regarding the Spitfire B wing :-

a) Were fabric covered ailerons ever installed on B wings fitted to Mk I and Mk II Spitfires.

Did the B wing on Mk Ib Spitfires house just two cannons or two cannons and four machine guns.

Any advice would be appreciated.

John

John

you don't seem to keep track of the answer or linked thread given.

Metal ailerons only came in summer 41, so before that all Spitfire had fabric ailerons.

the very first cannon armed planes in summer 1940 had only 2 cannon, but they tended to jam. This is in Price- Spitfire Story which is a recommended purchase.

The few of these planes were withdrawn, and i ahve never seen a photo of one.

when the problems had been iron out IB's ended up with 92 sq in November 1940, pics are in Price book, and these have the outer guns.

Also, in this thread started by you - http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234971865-148-spitfire-mkvb-to-mkib-conversion/

I posted a pic

R6923 IB later converted to VB, as this photo shows. Slightly narrower underwing bulges to a standard VB

Photos are in 'The Spitfire Story' by Alfred Price, including an earlier one of R6293 with a black port wing and what look like a mk I oil cooler, on page 79 on my copy.

The outer wing gun panels are clearly seen.

[Edgar]

The cannon-armed wings always retained the outer compartments for the .303"s, even if there was nothing in them; it's likely that they had plain covers, with no bulges or ejection slots, and the leading edges might not have been drilled out, though this is problematical, since the tubes were a standard fit, and could have remained. It's still unknown (if the hole/tubes were there) if fabric patches or metal covers were used; as they came from Supermarine, the latter seems likely. The only visible difference would probably have been underneath, where the used shells of the cannon would have come out from beside the cannon, not from a hole near the wheel wells.

[Sky Pilot]

Edgar

Thanks for the info. I'm getting there - gradually One thing that I need to establish is the position of the ejection holes for the cannons' used shells. On the Airfix Vb wing that I shall be using there are no holes, that I can see, either at the sides of the cannons or near the wheel wells.

Troy

I accept your rebuke for not keeping track of my forum correspondence and have devised a tracking method. It might PLEASE you to know that I have ordered a copy of Prices The Spitfire Story.

Merry Xmas to yourselves and all other forum members.

John

[gingerbob]

Ooh, I'd like to know about that tracking method- it does get rather difficult at times!

Merry, joy,

bob

[Phil32]

I recall that when you start a thread theres a tick box to follow it, which then spams your email inbox :-)

I've not found a way to track a thread that you comment on halfway through...

[Troy Smith]

Troy

I accept your rebuke for not keeping track of my forum correspondence and have devised a tracking method. It might PLEASE you to know that I have ordered a copy of Prices The Spitfire Story.

No problem John, but acknowledgement of a useful answer always helps, even if it's just using the 'like this' button.

It won't please me that you are getting Spitfire Story, but it will please you! I've had a copy for years, while the 'hardcore' here rate Spitfire - The History, I find the Spitfire Story to be more user friendly, certainly a better primer.

Doesn't cover Seafires is it only drawback.

I recall that when you start a thread theres a tick box to follow it, which then spams your email inbox :-)

I've not found a way to track a thread that you comment on halfway through...

At the top right if you clcik your user name you get a drop down menu, then go to 'my content'

Threads you have posted on with new comments are displayed in bold, with a red star to left.

To find old posts, i just google them eg for this ' Britmodeller Troy Spitfire b wing'

I add my name in as it makes it more specific. Googling 'Britmodeller spitfire' will not get useful results.

The more you narrow down the google search, the better.

That's what I do anyway.....

HTH

[Sky Pilot]

The cannon-armed wings always retained the outer compartments for the .303"s, even if there was nothing in them; it's likely that they had plain covers, with no bulges or ejection slots, and the leading edges might not have been drilled out, though this is problematical, since the tubes were a standard fit, and could have remained. It's still unknown (if the hole/tubes were there) if fabric patches or metal covers were used; as they came from Supermarine, the latter seems likely. The only visible difference would probably have been underneath, where the used shells of the cannon would have come out from beside the cannon, not from a hole near the wheel wells.

Further to Edgar's value reply is anyone able to confirm the locations of the cannon shell ejection ports on the "Mk Ib" Spitfire and other B wing versions. The new Airfix Mk Vb kit, which I have, does not show any such ports.

John

[Edgar]

Yes, it does; they're the slightly flashed-over triangles tight against the wheel wells. It's possible that trying to mould them as pure holes would have risked damage to over-thin plastic.

I've seen it said that there were removable covers for those holes, which kept the cases in place until they could be removed after landing, but all the photos I've seen just seem to show black holes.

On L1007, the first cannon-armed airframe, there appear to be thin fairings over the shell ports, but there's no indication (that I've seen) to say whether the next batch of 30 sets had the same set-up.

Legend has it that, when 19 Squadron finally gave up on their aircraft, they were converted back to having A wings; it's possible the old wings were turned into "proper" B type, but that's another mystery yet to be resolved.

L1007; the cannon fairing is not easy to see:-

Edited December 25, 2014 by Edgar

[gingerbob]

No, No.19 Squadron reverted to Mk.Ias, but the cannon aircraft did not get new wings, they went on to become Mk.Vs.

bob

[Sky Pilot]

Edgar

Firstly - May I apologise for the typo in my last reply - the word "value" should have been "valued". On later reading of the reply I realised that it could construed as a misspelling of "vague" which would be totally inappropriate

Secondly - Many thanks for your subsequent reply. Ironically, just before I received your reply, I had the opportunity to examine the Tamiya Mk Vb kit which showed the ejection port, as a hole, next to the wheel well - but missing from the box art (tut, tut). A little bit of careful plastic surgery to the Airfix Vb wing will solve my problem.

Bob

Thanks for your tip. Now I would like to identify those Ibs which survived to undergo the conversion to Vbs - something of a challenge I suspect.

John

[Sky Pilot]

I should have included this in my previous reply :

Did the Vbs converted from Ibs retain their original Ib serial numbers ?

[Troy Smith]

I should have included this in my previous reply :

Did the Vbs converted from Ibs retain their original Ib serial numbers ?

John, You can always use the 'edit' facilty, and edit in changes.

If you have not see this site you may wish to have a look

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/home.html

This website attempts to list every Vickers-Supermarine Spitfire and Seafire aircraft built.

by serial http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/production.html

HTH

[Graham Boak]

if not there, try the searching through lists in Spitfire The History. They may even be the same....

[Sky Pilot]

Troy

Thanks for the response.

Actually I have used the Edit facility previously but failed to do so on this occasion - the words "numb" and "skull" come to mind. Also I already have the Aircraft Production site it just didn't occur to me. Still getting my head around the Spitfire thing - as you have probably guessed.

Thanks for your patience.

John

[Sky Pilot]

Edgar

I presume that your reference to "the old wings" in your earlier reply applies to those cases in Spitfire Production Site where the phrase "cannon wing fitt" appears. In these cases does the indication "Cv Va" not necessarily mean that the A wing was included in the conversion and similarly for the B Wing ?

John

[gingerbob]

You would logically think that this is what "Cv Va" means, but whether that notation was actually on the record cards, or was an error introduced in the transcription for Spitfire the History, it is incorrect. They retained the cannon wings- and I made a technical mistake in referring to "Mk.Ia" earlier. I don't believe that this was ever (officially) applied to the Mk.I- even more surely the designation Mk.Ib is erroneous, because by the time the designation suffixes were agreed, the cannon Mk.Is had already become Vs. In the early discussion of what we know as the Vb, there are some "innovative" designations used.

Serials: (yes, they retained the original) - notations are those written off or damaged before re-engining programme)

R6761 (continuing R prefix until noted)

6770

6776

6809

6833

6882

6888 (damaged 10 Feb 41, but repaired/converted by September 42?)

6889

6890

6897

6904

6908

6911 (damaged 14 Sept, but repaired- unclear when converted)

*6912 (written off in forced landing 31 August 40)

6917 (damaged 21 Sept but repaired and converted spring '41)

6919

6923

6924 (crashed 7 Feb but subsequently repaired/converted- some of the history looks questionable, might be error for other a/c)

*6958 (shot down 31 August 40)

6960

X4062

X4106

*X4231 (shot down 31 August 40)

*X4159 (dove into ground (while with 7OTU) 13 September 40)

X4257

X4272

X4279

X4342

X4476

X4482 (record unclear whether converted to V)

As you can see, the individual records aren't always reliable, but the general trend is apparent. Looking at the other end:

R6809 and R6890 survived the war, only to be summarily scrapped.

R6888 was shot down over Normandy on 14 June 44!

R6960 was written off after a landing accident in December 44 (with OTU)

X4257 was written off in forced landing 3 July 44 (not combat related)

[Edgar]

This is another reason why I'm often loth to get too pedantic on some subjects; there might not have been a Ib, but Supermarine did plan for it, since it appears, on at least three occasions, in the Vickers Spitfire/Seafire modification ledger, dated as late as August 1941.

The item, below, is the cocking lever fitted to early cannon-winged Spitfires, which enabled the pilot to leave cocking of the cannon until combat was joined. Due to the normal practice of guns being cocked on the ground, leaving the breeches open, they often froze solid, making them inoperative. Specially-made rubber covers (not condoms) were tried, but the freezing temperatures turned them solid, causing them to break up, and enter the barrel.

According to the ledger, under Mod 417, it was planned for the "IB, IIB, VB & VC."

This item was deleted, possibly when the heating system improved, but the remains of the pipework can be seen in the Vb (and IX, believe it or not, which means it could have been a converted V airframe) Pilot's Notes, and on the wall of the Hasegawa 1/32 Vb.

What we don't know is whether the original Mk.I cannon wings were kept, and modified to "proper" IIb & Vb standard, or simply removed and replaced with the genuine article, which is why I said "old wings" in the Mk.I context.

[gingerbob]

Thanks Edgar! I mention the "Ib" thing because I thought it was interesting- I won't chastise anyone for using it, since it makes perfect sense. Heck, when checking the serials above in my Excel database I found that I used the term to differentiate these aircraft myself. Note, however, that the drawing you show simply says "Spitfire" with cannon guns (if I read it right), and also "Special Order Only".

Use of the term in the mods ledger doesn't make it "official" (but is certainly interesting), and could be interpreted as showing how quickly people made the same logical extrapolations that we enthusiasts/modellers do now. Supermarine sometimes tried to guide nomenclature policy, and sometimes the Air Ministry/MAP put them in their place, while other times they acquiesced (the case of the "Mk.XIX" is perhaps the most noteworthy example).

bob

[Sky Pilot]

Bob

Thanks for the Serials list that you generated. Saved me some work

I, to, was about to raise Edgar's point regarding the "retained" Mk I cannon wings - were they modified to the "proper" IIb /Vb standard or simply replaced by the standard B wing - perhaps it will never be known. Which reminds me, I must check to see which Mk Is were converted to IIbs.

Edgar

Could you identify which other parts of the Spifire's anatomy might have been covered by condoms ?

John