Mitch K Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 (edited) Or, to be exact, the Air Force of the Independent State of Croatia (Zrakoplovstvo Nezavisne Države Hrvatske, ZNDH). The ZNDH acquired 18 of these aircraft, Series 12 models (useful to know!), during 1944. This is my first GB, so it's in like Flynn with a post early on and hope to keep up the momentum. I'd bought the kit a little while back: a got a deal on two of the Italeri 1/72 version. I'm going to build one with the kit decals (which will go into the normal WIP forum) and the other for this build. The Regia Aeronautica build will run a fraction ahead, which should allow me to scout out and solve problems on this build and so keep up the momentum. The last thing I want n my first GB is to miss the deadline! I've got some good references for the build, which should be pretty much out of the box, except for adding and improving a few details, and, of course, the markings. These are simple enough: one single code number on the fuselage and the red/white checkerboard shield in six positions. I'll print these myself. The most tricky part seems likely to be the painting. The Croatian C.202s were finished in a myriad of tiny dark green spots over the usual light brown base. The airbrush is going to earn its keep on this one! Edited December 21, 2014 by Mitch K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 The most tricky part seems likely to be the painting. The Croatian C.202s were finished in a myriad of tiny dark green spots over the usual light brown base. The airbrush is going to earn its keep on this one! You could punch irregular patterns of small holes in a piece of paper and hold it at a short distance to the model when spraying. Jens 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted December 21, 2014 Author Share Posted December 21, 2014 I used that option on my JG27 Bf-109E. I felt it worked very well. The speckles on the C.202 are much, much smaller. My plan at the moment is to paint her overall in the dark green, mask over this with hundreds of tiny dabs of blu-tak, then spray the light brown. We shall see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marin Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 (edited) Hello I have to correct You. ZNDH didn't have Macchi, so there is no red/white checkerboard shield in six positions on any Macchi. Macchi were under direct luftwaffe command but were flown by Croatian pilots that served in luftwaffe ( remanents of Croatian legion - volunteers that served in German luftwaffe) and were stationed on few airfields in Croatia. They all had luftwaffe markings - balkenkreuze, swastika. Also, some time ago one photo is published (in Croatian history magazine) that might ease your problems with camouflage pattern : http://s21.postimg.cc/b0eo3cebb/Macchi_mc13.jpg Macchi with camouflage pattern similar to one, I think, had Poindinger Macchi Edited December 21, 2014 by Marin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 There are very few known photographs of Croatian Macchi 202's (two or three at most). The Germans got their hands on about 50 machines, about 12-18 (depending on sources) of which were transferred to the Croat's. JG 108 used the 202 for pilot training with white 214, defecting to Sweden in October 1944. There is no doubt these machines were marked with German insignia. Unfortunately, the best known picture of a Croatian Mc 202, that of black 1 flown by Josip Helebrant frustratingly, does not show the insignia used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted December 21, 2014 Author Share Posted December 21, 2014 I see! There are profiles in three or four different references of a 202 associated with Helebrant showing the Croatian shield. Are these all specious (I don't have a problem if you can shoot them full of holes!)? If so I'll build something from the ZNDH DID have (IK-2, Bf-109, MS-406...) I won't be beaten THAT easily! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted December 21, 2014 Author Share Posted December 21, 2014 Or a Fiat G50: I've got a photo of one with the shields on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 (edited) I see! There are profiles in three or four different references of a 202 associated with Helebrant showing the Croatian shield. Are these all specious (I don't have a problem if you can shoot them full of holes!)? If so I'll build something from the ZNDH DID have (IK-2, Bf-109, MS-406...) I won't be beaten THAT easily! I wouldn't say specious, perhaps speculative would be best. If you look at German marked machines, their fuselage insignia are just behind the cockpit and would be visible in this picture, so it's possible it was marked with checkerboards on the wings and fin. It's also worth noting in this picture that the nose and wings have camouflage on them. This was usually done to conceal yellow noses/panels or bands and prominent upper wing insignia. Unless more pictures pop up, your guess is as good as mine though. Edited December 21, 2014 by Brad 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marin Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 If so I'll build something from the ZNDH DID have (IK-2, Bf-109, MS-406...) I won't be beaten THAT easily! Of course. From ZNDH Bf-109 best covered with reference material is "black 4", beside it you also have "black 10". From Italian aircraft You have Avia fl.3, Fiat g.50, Saiman 200, sm 79. I would help as much as I can if You stick with Croatia theme. I see! There are profiles in three or four different references of a 202 associated with Helebrant showing the Croatian shield. Are these all specious (I don't have a problem if you can shoot them full of holes!)? Well, some authors like to copy some ideas that have very poor basis in history facts and so on ... It is interesting that all published photos don't show markings clearly - probably Croat pilots/staff intentionally blocked view on them while taking photos. For balkenkreuze and swastika there are photographic evidence (there are also some unpulished photos). After all those were airplanes in Luftwaffe ownership flown by Croat legionaries. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted December 21, 2014 Author Share Posted December 21, 2014 I wouldn't say specious, perhaps speculative would be best. If you look at German marked machines, their fuselage insignia are just behind the cockpit and would be visible in this picture, so it's possible it was marked with checkerboards on the wings and fin. It's also worth noting in this picture that the nose and wings have camouflage on them. This was usually done to conceal yellow noses/panels or bands and prominent upper wing insignia. Unless more pictures pop up, your guess is as good as mine though. Cheers Brad. I don't think this GB is the place for too much in the way of speculation/ "WHIF-age". I've got a good line on a Fiat G50. The colours, numbers and suchlike on these is much clearer. Never mind, plenty of other nice schemes for C.202s out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 As with so many other threads already posted here I suspect this one will be an education to most of us on the use of this machine by your chosen country Mitch. May I ask which kit this one will be based on? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 As with so many other threads already posted here I suspect this one will be an education to most of us on the use of this machine by your chosen country Mitch. May I ask which kit this one will be based on? At the moment, there's an AML G.50bis I've got dibs on. It gets a decent writeup, and the example I'm goingto build is well ascribed, with some nice, authentic photos! The downside is it's a little bit plain: dark green above, blue-grey below, very much like my C.200. The yellow fuselage band and red/white checkered insignia should make it pop a bit, hopefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 (edited) Glad to hear you've good some good reference photos for this one Mitch. The otherwise simple paintwork should provide a good canvas to highlight the national markings. Edited December 22, 2014 by Col. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffB Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Hi Mitch, the Fiat still a great choice. I've always liked the quirkiness of this open cockpit monoplane fighter, which is emphasised on the AML boxart (if it's the one I'm thinking of), where it's shown stalking a Greek Gladiator - an enclosed cockpit biplane! Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hgbn Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I have been wondering on that open pit and concluded since it was a Fiat product the reason was to have the draft drag out the oil vapors and fumes Runs and duck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 I have been wondering on that open pit and concluded since it was a Fiat product the reason was to have the draft drag out the oil vapors and fumes Runs and duck I can't think what you mean I know that when they put a bubble top on the C200, they got rid of it because it was of such lousy quality that in short order it became so opaque it might as well have been made out of canvas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Both the Mc.200 and the Fiat G.50 originally had modern closed cockpits with opening canopies and the first series of both aircrafts featured these. It was however found very quickly that both suffered from a number of problems: bad transparency and most importantly difficulties in opening in flight, that made bailing out of the aircraft very difficult. Pilots also didn't love closed canopies and some wrote very strong letters against them... so much for those who think the pilots always know better than the aircraft designers... In any case, the dislike of the pilots was not the main reason behind the use of open cockpits in these aircrafts, the main reason was simply that none of the two companies felt obliged to sort the problem and the closed canopies were simply discarded for the time being. A G.50 in Croatian service is very interesting ! Have you seen these 2 pictures ? http://www.alieuomini.it/pagine/dettaglio/uomini,5/dossier_fiat_g_-_l_impiego_nella_legione_aerea_croata,224.html 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 (edited) Giorgio, many thanks! I've got a small, poor, monochrome version of the top picture (or another picture of the same plane in a similar position). I say "poor" because the marking on the cowling isn't even visible! In a way, this makes matters worse: when I didn't know there was a crest on the nose I would simply have gone ahead. Now I've got to try to figure this out. Yellow double-headed eagle? Edited to add: it's more like some sort of devil (I think!). Edited December 22, 2014 by Mitch K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 Bought and on the way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Mitch, according to a profile on this page it should be a devil http://croacia2gm.blogspot.it/ Personally I struggle in identifying what the crest represents, eyesight has never been my strong point... In any case, pictures of other aircrafts don't show the crest, wonder if it was only on this aircraft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted December 23, 2014 Author Share Posted December 23, 2014 Giorgio, many thanks. There appears to be a different symbol on each one - or, more accurately, all the symbols are unique: some seem not to have one at all. One carries the "devil" symbol, one a set of white rings on the tail, a third a three-cornered fortification (also seen apparently on the one twin-seater). I'll see what AML provides! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marin Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 As far as I know there are only that two color images of aircraft with unknown symbol on cowling and nobody knows what that should represent (some form of devil, male goat ...) or are there any more of them on other fiats. Photos are taken in autumn 1944. As you can see, yellow tactical surfaces (fuselage band and underwing tips) were overpainted with some greyish color. In that period came order to repaint all yellow surfaces because of visibility/camouflage problems. This is profile from the Frka, Novak , Pogacic book about ZNDH: If you don't wish to bother with look of that mysterious fuselage symbol - you have option with symbol of 1st Airbase on cowling (drawing of Sisak fort) or variant as they were freshly delivered from Italy (plane green-gray with only Croatian markings checkerboard). Also from Frka, Novak , Pogacic book about ZNDH: Depend of aircraft some have checkerboard without border line (3504), some with black (3505) and some with red. Some photos from some Italian publication (I found it on web, so can not cite author/publication): You also have few photos in Frka, Novak , Pogacic book about ZNDH and one new publication from a group of authors "100 years of military aviation on Croatian ground" . 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted December 27, 2014 Author Share Posted December 27, 2014 Look what the postie brought me this morning! Inside it's very nice. Here's a view of the main sprue, with the two sets of fuselage halves. One set is for the standard G.50, the other the G.50bis that will be my build. There's a little bit of flash, here and there, but the castings are lovely and the surface detail is pin-sharp. Here's the other sprue, with the details. The cylinder blocks are split vertically. I can see how this might make it easier to deal with than cleaning up a mould seam on every single cylinder head, but I'll wait and see. You get two blocks of resin details: guns, seat, control column etc, plus a PE fret.The decals give two Italian options and two Croat options: the one with the goat/devil head and the three-cornered fort! The colour/markings sheet is crystal-clear and very detailed. Easy! The assembly instructions, on the other hand, look the plans for a Chuckle Brothers script. Oh dear oh dear oh dear... Ready to go! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffB Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 Looks nice Mitch. So, goat/devil or fort? Cliff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted December 27, 2014 Author Share Posted December 27, 2014 Cliff, part of me wants to fritter away a load of time finding out the significance of each, and deciding based on that. But I might just toss a coin! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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