Hurricane Mk.I P2992 of 527 Radar Calibration Sqn - Red?

[Ed Russell]

Hawker Hurricane Mk.I P2992/P 527 Radar Calibration Sqn

There are profiles, decal sheets, flight sims, paintings - everything except a photo

http://www.1001modellbau.de/flugzeuge/19175-iliad-design-48015-strange-hawker-hurricanes-5-hawker-hurricane-mk-i-p2992-p-527-radar-calibration-sqn-hornchurch-1943-overall.html

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asisbiz.com%2Fil2%2FHurricane%2FRAF-247Sqn%2Fimages%2FArtwork-Hurricane-MkI-RAF-247Sqn-Calibration-Squadron-P-P2992-Hornchurch-1943-0A.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asisbiz.com%2Fil2%2FHurricane%2FRAF-247Sqn.html&h=400&w=1100&tbnid=q4H3RKIG0wUsxM%3A&zoom=1&docid=ASap7mEsvD102M&ei=0QKNVPX8HKPUmAXLxoCABw&tbm=isch&ved=0CB4QMygBMAE&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=457&page=1&start=0&ndsp=23

http://fertigmodelle.ch/standmodelle-metall/flugzeuge/franklinmint/hawker-hurricane/B11E204.jpg

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flyingmule.com%2Fimg%2Fprd%2FFM-B11E204_01_lrg.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flyingmule.com%2Fproducts%2FFM-B11E204&h=425&w=640&tbnid=BDpkyqvGSJCCpM%3A&zoom=1&docid=jPFHpxqsW3GLiM&ei=0QKNVPX8HKPUmAXLxoCABw&tbm=isch&ved=0CC0QMygQMBA&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=606&page=1&start=0&ndsp=23

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hurricane/RAF-247Sqn/pages/Artwork-Hurricane-MkI-RAF-247Sqn-Calibration-Squadron-P-P2992-Hornchurch-1943-0A.html

The earliest one I can find is a sort of light red as above (from the Hurricane Mk I Profile) but there are oranges, pinks etc

Questions

Is there a photo anywhere?

Any actual evidence it was red?

What is "high reflectivity paint" in this context?

[Darby]

There are profiles on 'Wings Pallette' but like your image difficult to tell really. At least for me.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Darby

[Nick Millman]

FWIW possibly a form of daylight fluorescent red-orange paint rather than simply 'high-reflectivity' which would be the purest white. Early forms of what were later called Dayglo paints, developed in the USA during the 1930s by the Switzer brothers, were used during the war to paint buoys and for ground-air signalling panels. The company was then called Fluor-S Art Co. Post war it was used, for example, to paint those Hellcat drones.

"DayGlo fluorescent pigments, a new class of pigments based on fluorescent dyes and polymeric materials, were developed between the 1930s and 1950s by scientists at Switzer Brothers, Inc. (now Day-Glo colour Corp.). These pigments absorb various light frequencies (visible and invisible to the human eye) and reemit them, producing intense visible colors that appear to glow, even in daylight. Switzer Brothers, Inc., introduced novel processes that eliminated the limitations in light fastness and colour strength of earlier fluorescent pigments, resulting in new applications in advertising, packaging, flaw detection and safety. These products were used to support Allied troops during World War II . . . "

http://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/education/whatischemistry/landmarks/dayglo.html

The paint was perhaps intended to assist plotting the aircraft visually to co-ordinate its position against the radar signal rather than a paint intended to increase the strength of the radar signal which would have been rather advanced for that time.

But that's all speculative.

[Ed Russell]

Thanks Nick - I hadn't thought of Dayglo but it does fit the time scale and use.

The profile above is from Profile 111 - The Hawker Hurricane Mk I and I think it's a reasonable supposition the the artist had access to at least a photo. I imagine every other rendition is an unacknowledged copy of his work.

[Ed Russell]

Model here

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234977606-hurricane-mki-p2992-of-527-radar-calibration-sqn/

[GordonM]

I'm not surprised there is a lack of agreement about colours used, when there isn't even a common consensus on where 527 Squadron was based! According to Wiki (with its questionable accuracy) 527 formed at Castle Camps, Cambridgeshire, then moved to Snailwell, Cambridgeshire/Suffolk border. Wiki has a detailed list of aircraft operated, so presumably someone, somewhere must have information? Have Illiad Design ever stated where they got their information from, as they include a specific FS colour?

[Selwyn]

I'm not surprised there is a lack of agreement about colours used, when there isn't even a common consensus on where 527 Squadron was based! According to Wiki (with its questionable accuracy) 527 formed at Castle Camps, Cambridgeshire, then moved to Snailwell, Cambridgeshire/Suffolk border. Wiki has a detailed list of aircraft operated, so presumably someone, somewhere must have information? Have Illiad Design ever stated where they got their information from, as they include a specific FS colour?

Well it wouldn't be a specific FS colour because being British it would be painted to British standards and of course the aircraft pre dates the FS system by several years anyway!

Selwyn

[bobmig]

Have Illiad Design ever stated where they got their information from, as they include a specific FS colour?

I stated FS 11105 because it was obviously a high-visibility finish, and according to the references (Ian Huntley, et al) in Dave Klaus's colour guide, that was the bright red used for various aircraft markings. The other possibility would have been the "bright" roundel red which is quoted at FS 11136 - somewhat darker. I assumed (I know, I know...) high-vis would be the brighter red. Probably not scientific, but it seemed logical and reasonable. Looking back, I suppose I should have explained this on the instructions. BTW, yes, I know that all this should be done referencing British colour specs. But more people have access to the FS books or fan-decks than the wartime British standards.

For those unfamiliar with the Klaus work, it provides colour matches for 65 countries, plus references, sources, etc. They're all equated to the FS standard, with deviations noted if applicable. This means you don't need to source 65 plus (some countries have multiple periods and/or standards) different colour standards. It may not be perfect, but for modelling it's a great tool. Unfortunately it's out of print.

[ClaudioN]

According to Wiki (with its questionable accuracy) 527 formed at Castle Camps, Cambridgeshire, then moved to Snailwell, Cambridgeshire/Suffolk border. Wiki has a detailed list of aircraft operated, so presumably someone, somewhere must have information?

J.J. Halley, "The Squadrons of the Royal Air Force", Air Britain: formed at Castle Camps, 15 June 1943, to Snailwell 28 February 1944, then to Digby 28 April 1944.

Picture in that book shows Spitfire Mk. Vb coded WN-Z, named 'Anna' (WN aft of the roundel, serial BL-something, possibly BL788), in standard Fighter Command finish for 1945, with C-type upper wing roundel. Hurricane I P2992 is listed as WN-P (same given in "Combat Codes").

Colour profile caption in "On Target Profile no. 12" mentions highly reflective red-orange overall finish and states references come from private sources. Location given as RAF Hornchurch, 1943, but this refers to the place where 'radar, homing and blind landing instrumentation trials', in which the aircraft took part, were carried out.

Claudio

[Work In Progress]

Well it wouldn't be a specific FS colour because being British it would be painted to British standards and of course the aircraft pre dates the FS system by several years anyway!

Selwyn

It's quite unlikely that it was painted to any standard military aviation spec at all.

[occa]

I stated FS 11105 because it was obviously a high-visibility finish, and according to the references (Ian Huntley, et al) in Dave Klaus's colour guide, that was the bright red used for various aircraft markings. The other possibility would have been the "bright" roundel red which is quoted at FS 11136 - somewhat darker. I assumed (I know, I know...) high-vis would be the brighter red. Probably not scientific, but it seemed logical and reasonable. Looking back, I suppose I should have explained this on the instructions. BTW, yes, I know that all this should be done referencing British colour specs. But more people have access to the FS books or fan-decks than the wartime British standards.

For those unfamiliar with the Klaus work, it provides colour matches for 65 countries, plus references, sources, etc. They're all equated to the FS standard, with deviations noted if applicable. This means you don't need to source 65 plus (some countries have multiple periods and/or standards) different colour standards. It may not be perfect, but for modelling it's a great tool. Unfortunately it's out of print.

Was it dull (wartime) roundel red then ?

That would be bright enough as an overall color IMO

[Graham Boak]

The prewar red might have been bright, but the wartime one was dull. Very specifically not "highly reflective". I think we should take the term "high reflectivity" at its face value, and not look for one of the conventional paints in everyday use for markings and certainly not those used on camouflaged aircraft. If they were only looking for a highly visible colour in normal use then Yellow would have been the obvious choice - that is after all what was used to make trainers highly visible.

[Nick Millman]

Dull Red had reflectivity of 10% and Bright Red 12% so doubtful they would have qualified as "high-reflectivity paint".

Nick

[Ed Russell]

Although neither of the predictions in my RFI have come true (yet) I see it's still generating interest. I think Iliad's approach is quite reasonable although the colour I used seems to be somewhere between 12190 and 12197. As I say I mixed it from 3 colours and tried to match the Profile.

I agree it's unlikely to be a standard military colour for the reasons above. The codes quote is very interesting, it implies they have a picture. Maybe they conflated known codes (WN) and known ID letter (P) into WN-P when it actually wasn't. Until better evidence than Goulding appears I'll resist put WN squadron codes on it.

Colour profile caption in "On Target Profile no. 12" mentions highly reflective red-orange overall finish and states references come from private sources. Location given as RAF Hornchurch, 1943, but this refers to the place where 'radar, homing and blind landing instrumentation trials', in which the aircraft took part, were carried out.

"Private sources" (pers. comm. in science-speak) can mean anything or nothing - basically it means "trust me". It could be a full colour picture or an obscure note saying "it was red" I'd be very interested to see more of the nature of the "private sources". Iliad were pretty quick to respond, I wonder if someone from the On Target book organisation will be able to satisfy my curiosity?

[Nick Millman]

"Private sources" (pers. comm. in science-speak) can mean anything or nothing - basically it means "trust me". It could be a full colour picture or an obscure note saying "it was red" I'd be very interested to see more of the nature of the "private sources". Iliad were pretty quick to respond, I wonder if someone from the On Target book organisation will be able to satisfy my curiosity?

That term appears quite a lot in On Target profile books. Sometimes means a private source photograph shared or seen but with permission to publish withheld. There are loads of valuable photographs held in private collections or by individuals for which publication rights are refused. When the hoard owners die they will probably end up in skips or sold piecemeal through house clearance traders.

Even photographs widely available on the net can be withheld from printed publication simply because it is easier for copyright holders to go after a mainstream publisher than some anonymous person on a website.

Nick

[occa]

I wonder where they got the white outlining of the red portion of the fin flash from.

If that was real wouldn't it hint to it was the same colour ?

[Graham Boak]

Occa: I'm afraid not. By that logic, looking at the standard schemes then the yellow outer boundary is there because the blue of the roundel is the same colour as the green and brown(or grey) of the camouflage. It does suggest that the colours were similar, but not necessarily the same.

[occa]

But what other red color was used for codes, other than the roundel reds ?

[Graham Boak]

Well, PRU Pink for a start, although not convincing in this role! It does however highlight that aircraft can be and were painted in non-standard colours. Yes, I know that PRU Pink became a standard colour, but it wasn't initially. The various accounts of camouflage trials that lead to the eventual appearance of Ocean Grey give us another example.

[GordonM]

This seems like the ultimate "it's your model, can anyone prove you're wrong" aircraft. Thanks to bobmig for clarifying his thinking!

[Ed Russell]

"it's your model, can anyone prove you're wrong" aircraft.

I'm not really an advocate of that position unless I'm doing a "Wot-If?"

I think it's more a case of proving James Goulding wrong.

The Profile came out in 1966, far pre-dating anything else and, to me, that makes it the standing hypothesis that must be proven wrong before anything else can be accepted.

He has clearly drawn the colour as different to any standard colour (particularly to the fin flash) so I believe these are all ruled out. To my mind, Nick's speculation about dayglo is the most probably correct.

There are three hints to a picture but so far it isn't extant!

1. Goulding, as above.

2. Combat Codes as per post above which is 2003. However the information there appears to come from JDR Rawlings Coastal, Support and Special Squadrons of the RAF which was published in 1982, but is not supported by a picture. The authors freely acknowledge Rawlings' work.

3. On Target Profile no. 12 above citing "private sources"

Interestingly there is a picture of a 527 Sqn Hurricane coded WN-P in the Osprey Hurrcane Aces book. However it's a Mk XII and it's ( amended to JS290 as below). One might wonder if this lead to the citation in Rawlings but they are both mentioned so probably not.

It seems from many references that 527 was a paper amalgamation of multiple Calibration Flights so it's not surprising there's a bit of confusion about where it was based. I imagine all of the various bases quoted are correct at one time or another.

Who would have thought a spur-of-the-moment decision to build something 'Red' for a club display would lead this far.

[Work In Progress]

As fluorescent (i.e. day-glo) paints, dyes and finishes are generally associated with post-war developments it may not be widely appreciated that the Allies did in fact have some access to them during WW2. The Axis powers, as far as I know, did not have such things.

Those following the subject may be interested in this obit of the inventor, Robert Switzer.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/29/business/robert-switzer-co-inventor-of-day-glo-paint-dies-at-83.html

[Nick Millman]

As fluorescent (i.e. day-glo) paints, dyes and finishes are generally associated with post-war developments it may not be widely appreciated that the Allies did in fact have some access to them during WW2. The Axis powers, as far as I know, did not have such things.

Those following the subject may be interested in this obit of the inventor, Robert Switzer.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/29/business/robert-switzer-co-inventor-of-day-glo-paint-dies-at-83.html

See post # 3!

Nick

[Seahawk]

Interestingly there is a picture of a 527 Sqn Hurricane coded WN-P in the Osprey Hurrcane Aces book. However it's a Mk XII and it's J5290.

Page 81 of AoA 57 Hurricane Aces 1941-45, if anyone's interested. That's JS290, a valid serial for a Hurricane XII and for one which the Air Britain has serving with 527 Sq. No high-vis paint finish on that one.

Mason's magnum opus The Hawker Hurricane (1987, rev 1990) has this to say about 527 Sq (p.180): "Another [in addition to 116] Hurricane-equipped calibration squadron was No 527 Squadron, whose Hurricane Is and IIBs, usually equipped with 44-gallon long-range tanks, flew as detachments at Sutton Bridge, Coltishall, Castle Camps, Snailwell and Digby to provide oversea calibration of the CH Type I radars at Stenigot, West Beckham, Stoke Holy Cross, High Street, Bawdsey, Bromley and Canewdon." Not a word about lurid paint schemes but then not everyone is as fixated on these things as we are.

Of P2992, Mason says it joined 527 Sq at Castle Camps in 6/43 (ie on formation): nothing on code(s) carried.

JS290 Mason describes as an "NF.XIIC (Mark IIC wings) but records only its service with 534 (Turbinlite) Sq around October 1942. NB that the photo referred to above shows neither cannon nor underwing tanks.

Edit: Mason's earlier work on the Hurricane for MacDonald (1962) has a less detailed description of 527 Sq's role but no photos or artwork of P2992.

A colour profile of P2992 also appears in the old Aircam on the Hurricane (1971): it's a better drawn version of the one in the Profile, this time by Dick Ward. Now Dick was not in my experience given to inventing schemes but the unworthy thought enters my head that, in this particular case of an ill-documented aircraft, even he may have succumbed to a little surface quarrying of other sources. Or maybe he and James Goulding got together over a beer.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Seahawk

[Panoz]

"Private sources" (pers. comm. in science-speak) can mean anything or nothing - basically it means "trust me". It could be a full colour picture or an obscure note saying "it was red" I'd be very interested to see more of the nature of the "private sources". Iliad were pretty quick to respond, I wonder if someone from the On Target book organisation will be able to satisfy my curiosity?

Where private sources read older book (profile, Aircam).

Just a nicer way of saying "we copied it off some dodgy old references and have no photo proof".