Group Build Chat

[stevej60]

[vppelt68]

I wonder if my 1:72 Eduard Bf 110 E could be built oob as an Ausf. C. All the other parts should be there but I'm afraid the clear parts are different. Is that correct? V-P

[Procopius]

The big wing controversy is well known, but as a man who had the job of defending the country from air attack, Leigh-Mallory's idea that the bombers should be allowed bomb their targets and then be hit with a big force in the expectation that they would be so badly mauled that they would not want to return smacks of incredible naivety. I thought the whole idea was to stop them from bombing in the first place. Thank God Park was in command of 11 Group at the right time.

I would never argue that Leigh-Mallory was a better officer than Keith Park (although he seems to have been well-regarded by most of his subordinates at the wing and squadron level, who appear to have found him charismatic), but allow me to offer an alternative view, one framed without the benefit of hindsight:

Many pilots during the Battle mentioned how demoralizing it was to be constantly outnumbered. A formation of 200+ enemy aircraft might in actuality be under attack from up to 400 RAF fighters over a long period of time, but owing to the size of these big Luftwaffe formations, even simultaneous attacks by several RAF squadrons might go unseen by pilots attacking in single squadron strength, who would only see their squadronmates and the ever-present Luftwaffe escort. Several diarists noted the filip to their morale when they could see large numbers of RAF fighters attacking with them.

The Big Wings overclaimed, massively, but this wasn't known or clearly understood at the time. Even postwar, Douglas Bader retained his belief that the wing inflicted heavy losses whenever it appeared.

Leigh-Mallory believed that it was more effective to destroy the Luftwaffe's bombers in very large numbers -- as he believed the Big Wings were doing -- after their bombs were dropped, because if one could destroy more aircraft in a single engagement, then the total number of engagements would be reduced; i.e. the Luftwaffe would run out of bombers or the will to use them more rapidly when engaged by Big Wings, so the total number of bombs which fell on their targets would be smaller, and the total losses to the Luftwaffe (since raids would be destroyed, rather than broken up) would be much higher.

Leigh-Mallory was wrong; Park was right. But this was not immediately apparent to many people in 1940, including many pilots actively fighting in the front lines.

[Truro Model Builder]

Any fighter pilot will tell you that their primary role is to stop the enemy from achieving their objective, which does not always mean shooting it down. Park himself considered that if a German bomber jettisoned his bombs or turned for home without bombing he had been defeated. Allowing the Germans to bomb their target because you hope to hit them in large numbers -and particularly when those targets are other fighter airfields- is sheer stupidity.

But to talk about contemporary views, it quickly became evident that it took far too long to form up a wing of three or more squadrons. Bader said it took six minutes, which was repeatedly proved wrong. On top of that, and particularly when Bader was leading the formation, they would not always undertake the task they were instructed to do but instead trundle off to do their own thing. Tom Neil (249 Sqdn North Weald) is quoted as saying that his squadron would return to base after a raid to refuel and rearm, to see the Duxford wing aimlessly searching for the Luftwaffe which by then had gone home. It was indeed a morale booster to attack the Germans in large numbers, but it was a shame that it rarely happened.

A lot of the problem was that Park and Leigh-Mallory did not get on, and it has been argued that Dowding should have sorted that out at an early stage. AVM Brand, AOC No.10 Group supported Park's tactics splendidly, and the two groups co-operated very well. Certainly it didn't help that Bader and his adjutant -who was a sitting MP- were stirring things up at the Air Ministry behind people's backs.

It is a subject whose controversy will not go away. BMers can doubtless see where my opinions line up, and I make no bones about that. Leigh-Mallory was a disaster as far as I am concerned, and his appointment as AOC No.11 Group, succeeding Park, was a tragedy:

(from Wikipedia)

One of the reasons for Leigh-Mallory's appointment to command 11 Group was that he was seen as an offensively-minded leader in the Trenchard mould. Once appointed he soon introduced wing-sized fighter sweeps into France, known as "rodeos." (When accompanied by bombers to provoke enemy fighters, these were known as "Circus" operations). However, Leigh-Mallory came in for criticism as these raids over enemy territory caused heavy RAF casualties with over 500 pilots lost in 1941 alone, losing four aircraft for each German aircraft destroyed and having little effect on ground targets. Indeed, during this period the German armed forces were mobilising for Operation Barbarossa and few Luftwaffe fighters remained in western Europe. It was indeed a steep learning curve for Leigh-Mallory despite the fact that the Luftwaffe had made similar mistakes during the Battle of Britain and there were other senior RAF commanders who had understanding of this. One of his staff officers pointed out: "In my opinion we learned a hell of a lot – how to get these raids in, by deceiving radar and by counter-offensive techniques. [in the Middle East] they were still in the First World War business – they'd learned none of the deception techniques such as sending in high-level fighters and sneaking the bombers in underneath." Keeping 75 squadrons of fighters, many to conduct ineffective offensive operations from Britain during 1941, was also questionable while Malta and Singapore were only defended by older, obsolete types of aircraft. Ironically the RAF's best commanders and air-warfare tacticians were in the Mediterranean area around this time achieving greater success over Malta and North Africa than their counterparts back home [including Park, who was AOC Malta in 1942 and making a great success of it by turning it from defensive to offensive ops].

But that is later than the Battle of Britain, and an argument for a different day.

[Procopius]

I'm not arguing with you; I think Leigh-Mallory was wrong, and his subsequent policies were needlessly wasteful of life.

[Erwin]

IMO it's best to shoot the bombers before rather than after .

The civilians in the cities most likely felt the same way.

[rob85]

Dowding should have put leigh-mallory back in his box sooner... Unfortunately he don't take the opportunity to do so from a position of power (e.g. he was needed as the battle was looming thus his retirement was pushed back) it is his only real failing in my eyes. His work to get American support through Beaverbrook and them to build the merlin engine had long reaching effects... No one would have heard for the mustang had it not been powered my a merlin... But this also meant, thanks to Beaverbrooks capitalist ways and dowdings amazing understanding and foresight of the battle ahead, the RAF had the edge in fighter numbers as they were replaced so much faster.

As for the big wing its a joke, and one with an arrogant punch line from bader and Leigh Mallory (not to do their bravery or contribution down), they had their not Britains adgenda in mind... Unfortunate.

If dowding had been more political maybe he would have had kept them under control and won more friends... But then we may not have won the bofb and if Mallory had not replaced park Malta may have been a different story!!

Oh actually dowding could have done more for the chaps downed in the sea, the Germans did a better job of that...

Mallory could have and should have protected parks airfield better when told, he would have done if dowding had banged their heads together.

All that said... Nothings perfect! And they did win us the battle even with the political opposition.

What a ramble...

Rob

Edited July 14, 2015 by rob85

[stevej60]

Once more the Devil vomit's on my eiderdown! Stuka arrived today all bagged superb decal,s original Palitoy era boxing and to the reviewer who

claimedit featured a BoB option WRONG! North Africa and Russia are not near Britain so it,s gone in the cupboard for another day,still got a 72 scale one so may still add to the tally.

Edited July 15, 2015 by stevej60

[rob85]

Once more the Devil vomit's on my eiderdown! Stuka arrived today all bagged superb decal,s original Palitoy era boxing and to the reviewer who

claimedit featured a BoB option WRONG! North Africa and Russia are not near Britain so it,s gone in the cupboard for another day,still got a 72 scale one so may still add to the tally.

well they may not be near Britain but they are good options, what shame you may have to buy another one and add that to the stash!! You may even have to buy extra models to make up for the disappointment!! !)

Rob

[stevej60]

well they may not be near Britain but they are good options, what shame you may have to buy another one and add that to the stash!! You may even have to buy extra models to make up for the disappointment!! !)

Rob

Actually Rob the African scheme does look nice, totally different to the mottled one I've just done however I,ve just noticed the codes on the 1/24 scale

kit in the GB and they are identical it would mean hand painting the unit badge but thinking about it.......

[Truro Model Builder]

North Africa and Russia are not near Britain

Of course they are. You just need to squint a little and tilt your head to the side... sorted.

[TEMPESTMK5]

Good afternoon

Sorry if the question has already be asked but I would like to know where I can find info on the rag wing Huricane during the BoB ?

Thanks for your help ..

Ps : I know that there is this kit http://www.airfix.com/us-en/hawker-hurricane-mki-starter-set-1-72.htmlnut I already have 2 Airfix Hurricane in my stash and I don't want to buy another one ...

Patrice

Edited July 16, 2015 by TEMPESTMK5

[Ozzy]

As a relative newbie to aircraft modelling, I'm after some assistance/ guidance. On how and what, to use for the antenna cable on an aircraft.

Ozzy

[Black Knight]

On how and what, to use for the antenna cable on an aircraft.

A hair, stretched sprue, or rigging elastic thread, superglued between fixing points

[Col.]

As a relative newbie to aircraft modelling, I'm after some assistance/ guidance. On how and what, to use for the antenna cable on an aircraft.

Ozzy

I've started using fishing line. Fairly cheap for a reel with plenty on that can be used to rig biplanes as well.

[jrlx]

Like Col., I use fishing line. The elastic type. Just glue one end with super glue and let it dry. Stretch to the other fixing point, glue that end with super glue, let it dry and cut the excess line with a scalpel blade.

EDIT: here is an example of how to do it (just scroll down in the post). The end result is here.

Its the same procedure for rigging biplanes.

EDIT: here is an example (just the end result, sorry no WIP)

Cheers

Jaime

Edited July 17, 2015 by jrlx

[Procopius]

As a relative newbie to aircraft modelling, I'm after some assistance/ guidance. On how and what, to use for the antenna cable on an aircraft.

Ozzy

I use EZ-line, myself. Made for modellers, and pretty forgiving. All you need is superglue and accelerant to apply it.

Good afternoon

Sorry if the question has already be asked but I would like to know where I can find info on the rag wing Huricane during the BoB ?

Hey Patrice, I believe -- others will correct me, I'm sure -- that mainly only Hurricanes with L-serials had the fabric wings during the Battle, and some were possibly retrofitted. Plastic Planet Club makes this sheet.

[Ozzy]

Guys thanks, there's a lot to think about.

Ozzy

[Stew Dapple]

AML also do a couple of Czech 312 Squadron L-series Hurricane transfer sets - the first and third sets on the list. The AZ Models Hurricane I "Early Aces" set also contains markings for an L-series Polish 303 Squadron aircraft - if you can find the kit anywhere.

Cheers,

Stew

[TEMPESTMK5]

I use EZ-line, myself. Made for modellers, and pretty forgiving. All you need is superglue and accelerant to apply it.

Hey Patrice, I believe -- others will correct me, I'm sure -- that mainly only Hurricanes with L-serials had the fabric wings during the Battle, and some were possibly retrofitted. Plastic Planet Club makes this sheet.

AML also do a couple of Czech 312 Squadron L-series Hurricane transfer sets - the first and third sets on the list. The AZ Models Hurricane I "Early Aces" set also contains markings for an L-series Polish 303 Squadron aircraft - if you can find the kit anywhere.

Cheers,

Stew

Good morning

Thank you Procopius and Stew for your help ...

Patrice

[AndyL]

I know it might sound a bit off, but I use hair for the wires...it's strong, and very thin, and absorbs CA well. I'm lucky inasmuch as the Mrs has very long hair lol!

[Enzo the Magnificent]

Leigh-Mallory was wrong; Park was right. But this was not immediately apparent to many people in 1940, including many pilots actively fighting in the front lines.

But the problem was that Leigh-Mallory effectively disregarded Dowding's orders during the battle. He never had to face the consequences of his actions because he had the support of the likes of Charles Portal, who was playing politics at the very point that politics were inappropriate.

[Enzo the Magnificent]

Of course they are. You just need to squint a little and tilt your head to the side... sorted.

Or look at them from Pluto...

[Mottlemaster]

I know it might sound a bit off, but I use hair for the wires...it's strong, and very thin, and absorbs CA well. I'm lucky inasmuch as the Mrs has very long hair lol!

I have tried useing my hair but as i'm bald i find the short curly ones less than useless

[Enzo the Magnificent]

I know it might sound a bit off, but I use hair for the wires...it's strong, and very thin, and absorbs CA well. I'm lucky inasmuch as the Mrs has very long hair lol!

I don't have a Mrs.

Or much hair...