Scratch Build of 1951 Pullman Carriage

[TheBaron]

On 6/8/2019 at 9:28 PM, hendie said:

while back I got me one of these.

 

Having made such a fuss about asking you think I'd have noticed you replied - apologies (and thanks!)

Would not have been at all surprised if you casually mentioned that you'd built the lathe yourself hendie....

》Checks name on panel

》Checks price online 

》Files information away for future action. 😄

On 6/8/2019 at 9:28 PM, hendie said:

I've been grabbing some more time at work for 3D printing stuff but don't have anything worth showing in that respect at the moment.

Coincidentally suffered a colleague at work today bragging over their first rather basic output on the supposedly hot (it isn't) new 3D printer installed at work in the prototyping lab. Confused them by confidently stating: 'Nice - but it's not hendie standard'. I genuinely think they now believe that this a bona fide international benchmark in the 3d printing field that they weren't previously aware of.

 

Will report back if this now begins to be referred to in internal training materials...

On 6/8/2019 at 9:28 PM, hendie said:

Sorry there ain't more

Produces miracle. Apologizes.  

 

A staggering piece of miniature wood-wizardry.

On 6/11/2019 at 10:45 PM, hendie said:

I thought I could perhaps get it printed and stick it inside the cabinet.

We are now at the  'Through the Looking Glass' level of modelling ladies and gentlemen.

#infiniteregression

[bentwaters81tfw]

That is what I had in mind when I suggested it

[hendie]

On 6/19/2019 at 4:37 PM, bentwaters81tfw said:

That is what I had in mind when I suggested it

 

Nasty nasty man.  I'll bet you pull the legs off Grandmothers too don't you?

 

Hey ho.

Since I am doing nothing else at the moment except wallowing in my own special type of purgatory, waiting on transfers, and never one to pass up a challenge... I took some scraps of styrene and following in @TheBaron's footsteps of nurturing addictive habits and on gnawing on plastic with one's own incisors and canines in turn, I whittled out this little intriguing shape here.

Can you tell what it is yet ?  (are we allowed to say that yet or is it too soon?)

 

 

Truth be told, I just cut some shapes and a couple of bits of rod and glued them all together, but keep believing the chewing/whittling version if it makes you happy!

Unfortunately, despite measuring the gift cabinet width several times I still managed to make the mini-macro Pegasus too big to fit into the cabinet 

Additionally unfortunately also I made a right hash up of the paint job. 

In my defense, the bristles my brushes are akin to the nostril hairs of a camel who uses Insette Spikey on a regular basis

and I've got shakey hands

and I do believe there was a mild earthquake

and I may have had to much coffee

or not enough

 

 

That version shall be retired, never to surface again.  However it has now got under my skin and I have to make one that actually fits inside the gift cabinet.  Stay tuned.

 

You may have noticed a rare and rather brief excursion from this thread over to my nemesis the Fly Wessex build in the last few days.  That was because I got fed up waiting on transfers (yes, still!) and had to have some sort of diversion.  While that particular diversion was going on some even more diversionary stuff arrived. To wit mes amis, a window frame. Yes. A window frame.

We don't want to go making something the wrong size now do we?   So I had a single window frame printed as a test for fitting before I went and ordered a *cough* trainload of them. 

 

 

I was originally going to make these out of PE, but after some serious thought I realized that I couldn't get the depth I needed with PE, even using several layers - plus, all the layers and the folding just got very complicated.  With some reluctance I decided to go down the 3D printing route.  I say reluctance because I consider this effort a scratch build and I thoroughly enjoy that aspect of this labor of love. 

I could easily have 3D printed the entire carriage from buffer to buffer but where's the fun in that?  However, as I (think I have) mentioned sometime somewhere previously, there are times when there's just no substitute for what can be achieved with this medium. 

(P.S. I started another round of sanding before a final clear coat, which is why the side frame looks so mottled at the mo'!)

It's just a shame the damned thing didn't fit!

 

 

Curiouser and curiouser.  I was positive I had checked and verified that dimension on multiple occasions to ensure I got it right.  (See above for how successful my multiple measuring sessions have been!)

I checked the frame.  I know I had designed it to be 37 mm wide, and what's this I see?  Why it's almost 0.2 mm too long. Dammit!  That'll do it.

 

 

Now that led me off on a trail checking my 3D model, the STP file and several other avenues, and everything pointed to me creating and submitting a window frame that should have been 37 mm width at the critical area.  So what's going on then ?  Is it Shapeways? Are their printers out of calibration ? Or is this result what I have to expect from the resolution of the printer/material combination ? Perhaps.

It did raise a question though - if it was down to printer tolerance, would the next batch be printed on the very same printer? Unlikely.  Would they be better or worse?  Who knows.

I reckoned that 0.15 mm would be enough to ensure it fitted, and if there was a gap, it would be so small it would be very difficult to notice.

So today during lunchtime I decided to update the model and remove 0.15 mm from the width, but held off from submitting the newly updated model file. 

 

This evening while I was messing about trying to find more things to do I happens across the window frame and wanted to double check the fit to make sure I was removing the right amount of width, and I also wanted to add slightly more depth to the frame as well.

Wait, what's this???  It fits!!!   What the...

I tried it in several windows just to make sure and it fitted perfectly in each and every one.  I measure it again with the calipers and got 37.0 mm give or take a gnats hair.

Now I know plastic shrinks, and some plastics will shrink for days, if not weeks, but for a part this small on volume and cross section, any shrinkage should have completed long before it arrived at my abode.

Nonetheless, I'll take this as a win - and go back and add the 0.15 mm I removed earlier today.  Actually I may just go somewhere in between, maybe 0.08 mm just to be on the safe side.

 

 

And lookey here.  Lampshades no less. Single lampshades and double lampshades.  Check the size of that digit holding them and you can understand why I went the same route with these.

There's no way on this earth that I could have made something so delicate and symmetric, then to have made multiples of them. Not a chance!

I love the way the plastic has captured the look of the frosted glass.

 

 

Look at the detail captured here.

Sadly, I have to now paint them.  I've put that off for now as I had to go and order some decent paintbrushes before I could even attempt to paint detail this small.

The frames around the lamps will be painted according to which compartment they are in. For example, those fittings in the bar area will be chrome finish, while those in the dining area will be brass.

I'm sure I'll have just oodles of fun trying not to mess those up.

 

 

Which brings us to a close for this update where there really wasn't any actual update, just me slamming up photo's of parts that I didn't even have to make (aside from that mini-macro Pegasus that @bentwaters81tfw will pay dearly for at some point in the not too distant future.  Trust me.

Well, the last thing that I didn't make was the diamond window assembly.  Yup!  Printed two, too.  So delicate.

 

 

Aaaaannnnndddddd, they fit!!!

 

 

Woopie doo it fits.  It fits I tell you.

I'll count that as a win.

 

and now slope off to try and chase up the transfer ghost

 

 

 

 

[JeroenS]

In my opinion the forum is missing a combined haha/like button. I mean I seriously like all the stuff you're doing here, and all those nicely designed and printed details. And the minified version as well of course.  I'm curious to see what other gifts you'll be making to put into the cabinet.... just sayin'.... 

 

But your writing made me laugh as well so I'll just insert one here: 😆

[CedB]

Wow. Gobsmacked. The 3D printed stuff is amazing hendie (I mean the design of course, the printer won't care) and that tiny, tiny carriage looks marvellous! Please don't throw it away… you could do a Father Ted and mess with people's perspective, or put it on top of the cabinet / bar?  

 

7 hours ago, hendie said:

…akin to the nostril hairs of a camel who uses Insette Spikey on a regular basis

Insette Spikey? Ah, hair Gel, right…

[bentwaters81tfw]

7 hours ago, hendie said:

 

Nasty nasty man.  I'll bet you pull the legs off Grandmothers too don't you?

Unfortunately, despite measuring the gift cabinet width several times I still managed to make the mini-macro Pegasus too big to fit into the cabinet 

You're gonna need a bigger cabinet.

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 (aside from that mini-macro Pegasus that @bentwaters81tfw will pay dearly for at some point in the not too distant future.  Trust me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nah nah ne nah nah.

[TheBaron]

9 hours ago, hendie said:

Look at the detail captured here.

Do you really think you had to issue that instruction H?

OMFG they're stupendous.

 

That stuff about part shrinkage was interesting and not something I was aware of as a factor with 3d printing. What causes it?

[TheBaron]

9 hours ago, hendie said:

that @bentwaters81tfw will pay dearly for at some point in the not too distant future.  Trust me. 

He's got form that lad. His superlative response in the 'Chat' section many moons ago to an  innocent enquiry from a foreign traveller about visiting London should be a poster on the London Underground. I seem to recall it basically consisted of a gallows pole and someone being sick.

 

Tea was expressed at velocity in this household....

[hendie]

Let's get the important stuff out of the way first....

 

8 hours ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

Nah nah ne nah nah.

 

   

 

             

 

 

okay, that's taken care of, now on to more serious stuff

 

9 hours ago, JeroenS said:

I'm curious to see what other gifts you'll be making to put into the cabinet.... just sayin'.... 

 

me too, cos I have no idea right now. Maybe some crystal glasses and a decanter or two?

 

 

9 hours ago, CedB said:

The 3D printed stuff is amazing hendie (I mean the design of course, the printer won't care)

 

Thanks Ced.  I wish I could take all the credit but modesty prevails

 

 

9 hours ago, CedB said:

Insette Spikey? Ah, hair Gel, right…

 

Actually, hairspray Ced.  I was never without a large sized aerosol back in my back-combing, spikey haired days following them Banshee's around the globe

 

 

6 hours ago, TheBaron said:

He's got form that lad.

 

Sounds like we need to be keeping our mince pies peeled for any upcoming WIP's from a certain source who shall remain nameless

 

 

7 hours ago, TheBaron said:

That stuff about part shrinkage was interesting and not something I was aware of as a factor with 3d printing. What causes it?

 

 

Tony, let’s see if I can explain.  To make any plastic part, the plastic must first be molten and like most things, when you apply heat, things expand.  Easy enough.

 

I found an example for an ABS type material:  A 1 cm³ cube of this material weighed 1.054g when solid.  When the plastic was melted, the same 1 cm³ cube weighted 0.933g – roughly an 11% change in densities.  For semi-crystalline (considered high shrinkage) materials that change in densities can be as much as 20 – 30% in an unconstrained situation.

 

In injection molding that shrinkage is compensated for by packing.  After the mold is filled roughly 95 – 98%, the machine switches from a velocity control to a pressure control.  As the material touches the steel of the mold, it will instantaneously cool and start shrinking.  As the material is shrinking the press is compensating for that shrink by applying a constant pressure,  thereby pushing more plastic into the mold.

 

Even then, there is still shrinkage.  Amorphous plastics generally shrink around 0.5% to 1% of mold dimensions while semi-crystalline materials will shrink anywhere from 1.5% up to 5% in severe cases. (which is why semi-crystalline materials are considered high shrinkage in the industry)

 

Therefore, in injection molding, the mold cavity must always be oversized to meet the dimensions of the part you wish to  make.

For example, if you have a part design which has a dimension of 100 mm and you are using a high shrinkage material, the cavity must be designed for that specific material shrinkage. Let’s say we are using a polypropylene with shrinkage of 1.5%, or 0.0015 inch/inch (shrinkage is always specified as amount of shrinkage per inch length), we would calculate the cavity dimension as:

Dimension / (1 – Shrinkage), or 100/(1 -.0015), which gives us a cavity dimension of 100.15 mm in order to make a finished part of 100 mm.

 

Now, consider that every part is 3 dimensional and shrinkage is not uniform in the X, Y, & Z directions – shrinkage can change depending upon gate type, gate location, wall thickness, types of filler used, geometry etc. and injection molding suddenly becomes a lot more complex than melt, squirt, and shoot. Even mold temperature can impact dimensions.

 

All that is compounded by the fact that it can take a while for the plastic to finally stop shrinking, particularly with semi-crystalline materials.  I have a part that contains roughly 100grams of material with an average wall thickness of around 1.5mm.  when you perform metrology on that just after molding, the dimensions are all out of spec.  However, wait 3 days and do the metrology and the dimensions are all in spec.  That’s due to the material (polypropylene) which has a Tg well below that of room temperature, which means that the molecular chains will continue to form and pack closer together until they reach a state of equilibrium even after the part has fully “cooled” and been ejected from the mold.

 

That’s also why you can’t simply change materials once you have the mold built – the dimensions will change depending upon the material being used because of shrinkage.

 

All that being said, 3D printing is an entirely different flavor of beast (of which I know from diddly squat to almost nothing).  Injection molding is squirting a large’ish (relatively speaking) volume of molten plastic into a cavity at once and packing it while it cools. 3D printing is laying down microscopic dollops of molten plastic at a time.  There’s no mold, and there’s no packing compensation for shrinkage. I assume the software has some algorithm to account for shrinkage and perhaps because each drop is being laid onto an already cooling surface of the previous drop that shrinkage of those individual drops does not have such a large impact on the finished product, as the printer is continuing to print until a specified dimension is reached.

 

I also noticed on this last order that the parts hadn’t been cleaned very thoroughly and there was a sticky gloopy snot inside each of the lampshades – I must remember to jet wash the parts with IPA to clean the snot out.  I also don’t know what plastic Shapeways are using – they just state “smoothest fine detail plastic”. 

 

It could also be that the material is highly hygroscopic and takes a while to dry out. I noted it was very flexible when received and seems to have firmed up slightly over the last few days. Perhaps the combination of poor cleaning and dumping it in sealed poly bag prevented the moisture escaping and the part from drying out.

 

Short answer: I’m not really sure!  Probably a combination of all or some of the factors above.

 

[TheBaron]

3 hours ago, hendie said:

Probably a combination of all or some of the factors above.

Which were eruditely summarized. hendie.

[Brandy]

You learn something new every day! Thanks for the explanation Hendie.

 

Ian

[perdu]

The learning circle keeps expanding

 

I love the lamps and from a serial scratch builder I do not believe any of us could consistently make them, all the very same

 

They are fabulous

So to precis the window frame episode "Was made, was oversize -was allowed to mature, was right size!"

 

Yes seems right to me, the shrink has it!

 

great modelling continues

[hendie]

Bless my cotton socks it's been a while since I visited here and pulled up a sandbag.

 

and before anyone asks - yes, I am STILL waiting on transfers.  The guy does seem to be moving but at a glacial pace.

 

Anyways, anyone remember these ?

 

 

I got me a new toy and thought I would try it out to see if I could wash out the icky residue from inside the lamp covers

 

 

Well, this is what happens when you stick them in an ultrasonic bath with IPA to wash out the sticky residue.  Not great.

 

 

There's no sticky residue any more but I don't know if I will use these or get some more and chance the residue issue (it may react with the paint).  I've sen some comments on forums where after some time, a crystallization growth occurs on the surface where the 3D print has been painted.  I haven't seen it on any of my stuff so far but it's something I'll need to look into in more depth when I get the time.

Since the transfers still seem a ways off, I need to find other tasks to keep me sane.  For some time now I have been looking at the seats, and more and more I felt I hadn't captured the look I was going for.

Back to basics...

 

 

You can see the original former there in the background - nothing more than a few pieces of cable wrapped over a styrene core and the ends filled in with milliput.

 

Evolution of a seat. - On the right is my original original.  In the middle was my last attempt that I grew to dislike over time, and on the right is my new version

 

 

which I don't like either!

It's too skinny at the waist methinks.

 

So back on with some milliput again.

 

 

It's still a bit rough but should shape up nicely with some gentle persuasion from various sanding implements.

Here it is compared to the other versions. I thought the side bits (sorry, my chair terminology is not up to scratch) were too obvious and clunky looking.  The new version on the right has a more tapered version which 'flows' better to my mind.

 

 

Seen from the side you can see more of the *cough* improvement.  I also shortened the arms just a touch.

 

 

I'm much happier with that - or at least I will be when I've finished sanding and shaping.  I should note here that I found that a couple of dips in whatever flavor of Klear you have available seems to help in covering over pinholes in the resin.

Then I just need to make 16 or so of them.

So I guess I can scrap these one's then!

At least I shall have plenty of test subjects for painting when the time comes.

 

 

Still going with an interior theme here - what goes with chairs ?  Tables.

Of course, they couldn't just be plain old tables.  No.  That would be too easy.  They had to have tablecloths on them didn't they ?  Well, you wouldn't spend upwards of a few grand to sit on a train without tablecloths would you ?

Tablecloths are a bit problematic when it comes to modeling aren't they ?  How do you get that hanging over the edge look to a tablecloth in 1/32 scale?

This is my best guess (or my only guess at the moment - let's see how it turns out)

 

 

Passable ?

 

 

It's not great I'll admit, but a decent first pass. (I hope)

It will come as no surprise that there are two different sizes of tables so I had to do the metal tape thing all over again, and there are a number of tables!  Me being lazy as always does not want to have to model each and every table individually so I am going to have a try at casting them in resin.

 

 

 

and this is where I realized that my silicone was out of date and have to go and order more

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by hendie

[CedB]

What the heck happened with the lamps! Bad luck matey - will they clean off?  

 

Great work on the seats and tables - looking really good  

[hendie]

Just now, CedB said:

What the heck happened with the lamps! Bad luck matey - will they clean off?

 

Nope.  Tried everything from a cocktail stick to wire brush and even scraping them with the end of a pair of sharp tweezers. The surface has turned white permanently it seems. There's probably a reason for it but I'm not a chemist

[CedB]

Rats. Might Shapeways help with some advice on cleaning agents for the gunk?

[bentwaters81tfw]

Tablecloths? Well obviously nothing but Irish linen will suffice, so I suggest you cut down a couple of hankies and get starching.

[hendie]

30 minutes ago, CedB said:

Rats. Might Shapeways help with some advice on cleaning agents for the gunk?

 

Good suggestion Ced.  I just checked and it seems that this is a problem common to only this material (frosted ultra fine) when used with an aggressive cleaner like acetone, IPA, MEK etc.  Common dish washing liquid seems to be the go to cleaning solution with some good old elbow grease thrown in.

Now if only Shapeways folks cleaned the parts properly before sending them out, it wouldn't be a problem

[perdu]

Does a dip in clear (varnish, lacquer, floor polish or such) help restore the crystallity of the damaged surface?

In the same way it can help when some varnish coats react and get 'grey-out' on finished surfaces

 

That chair, the  one you like, why dont you lay it on its back and mould off it?

 

HOW many are there in the Pullman coach?

Well you have ordered new havent you?

🤔

[hendie]

minuscule update for the weekend so far....

 

Tip for the day:  Don't buy your silicone for molding too far in advance.  This is Part A of and unused batch I found under my workbench.  The foil seal was intact when I removed it but the silicone had completely hardened with the simple application of some time.  Just as well I didn't notice that when looking last weekend and I went and ordered some more.

 

 

The armchair was finished off and added to the lego box

 

 

Followed by the mixing of a new batch of silicone

 

 

That should be cured by tomorrow so we'll see how that turns out.  I found an old batch of resin that is untouched - but if it hasn't gone completely gungy, I'll try it in a scrap mold before trying to cast the tables and chair.

 

In other news....

wait for it...

 

the transfers ARE READY! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   FInally!

 

I paypal'd last night so they could be here by the end of the week or sometime next week.   After all this time I can't wait to see how they turned out.

It's only a sample sheet, but at least it will get me started and allow me to move on with the rest of the build.

 

 

 

 

[CedB]

Well, that had me running across the Man Cave. My Sylmaster is still runny, thankfully. But will it be when I next use it? Duh duh daaaaa… oooh, the tension  

Can't wait to see the molding Alan.

[hendie]

22 hours ago, CedB said:

Can't wait to see the molding Alan.

 

Then wait no more dear Ced.

 

On 9/3/2019 at 5:13 AM, perdu said:

That chair, the  one you like, why dont you lay it on its back and mould off it?

 

Catching on fast Bill

 

On 9/3/2019 at 5:13 AM, perdu said:

HOW many are there in the Pullman coach?

 

In this particular car, there are 16 comfy chairs, and two long and four short tables - with tablecloths.

 

Some de-lego-ing and pulling things out of silicone produced this.  The originals and hopefully two workable molds.  Lets see how we get on then.

 

 

I decided to use my old stock resin - why not? What's the worst that could happen.  Well, it stated in bold type on the containers 'Shake well before use'

Since this had been lying for who knows how long I made sure I gave it a good shake.  Of course the inevitable happens when you shake liquidy things - LOTS of bubbles. Lots!

In my rush to see how the molds came out I completely forgot to test the resin on an old mold in case something went not quite right.

 

 

However, the gods seemed to be on my side today and at least I cold see that the resin was starting to cure

 

 

After waiting probably not quite long enough I popped the resin out of the molds. Here's some upside down tables

 

 

They look slightly better the correct way up.  I can see lots of sanding in my future.

 

 

What about the chair then ?

Well, first impressions (sic) are good

 

 

Compared to my last version I think these capture the shape I was after much better.

 

 

What about those tables then ?  Well I couldn't resist getting at least one set looking slightly more table like so out with the sanding paper and lots of elbow grease later, and a quick squirt of primer... this is the short table..

 

 

... and this is the longer table

 

 

There are a few bubbles here and there, especially around the sharp ends - not really a surprise, but overall, I think these will clean up nicely with a swipe of filler here and there and a judicious application of micro-mesh.

 

 

Primer also went on the new comfy chair.  It's looking a little bit rough, but a dip in whatever flavor of Klear I have should help sort that out.

 

 

But what do they look like together I hear you ask.  Well, wait no longer

 

 

That is all the easy part.  The tables in particular - all they will need is a coat of something near white.  The chairs are a different beast altogether.  They are a rather brightish blue with a white flower pattern.

I can see lots of experimentation in my future trying to get something approaching that pattern.

 

The result of an afternoon's work in Hendieland

 

 

I'll pick the best of those tables, and I only have another half dozen or so chairs to make.  I should get those done at the next session.

 

and now the countdown begins until my test transfers arrive....

 

 

 

 

[perdu]

Gosh

 

Really really good results

 

Well done that man

[CedB]

Seconded, with bells on!  

[Fritag]

On 9/9/2019 at 12:00 AM, CedB said:

Seconded, with bells on!  

Thirded with Klaxons!

 

I've largely and unacceptably overlooked this exercise in hendie handiwork.  Gonna correct that now...........