Scratch Build of 1951 Pullman Carriage

[hendie]

On 2/21/2017 at 4:39 AM, perdu said:

That cutting out thingmy seems to be one of Satan's pet projects doesn't it,

 

It certainly is.  I think the machine itself is sound, it's the software and drivers that are screwing things up.  For example, the main carriage windows are made up of 4 lines, and 4 radii (at the corners obviously).  You would think that the cutter would start at one point then cut all the way around the window. Nope!  It will cut two horizontal lines, followed by 2 radii, then two vertical lines, following up with the last two radii. So using that method, if there's any misalignment in the X, Y as it jumps form point to point will result in a mismatch in the profile. - It also screws up the blade alignment if it jumps from a straight line to a radius that has a start point in a different axis.

 

I've tried everything I can think of - creating a polyline, so the window is a single element and not 4 x Lines and 4 x Radii, but it doesn't make any difference as to how it cuts the window.... very frustrating.  There's nothing in the software I can change to modify that behavior so I'm pretty certain it's down to how the internal optimization is calculated..... very poorly in my opinion.

 

Which brings us to my latest update.... more of the same really.   I finally produced two side frames I think I can work with. The window corners will take a little bit of work, but I think I can overcome the issues described above.  Anyways.... side frames cut, then reinforced using "C" channel. This time I used the glue sparingly, and the outer face does not seem to have been affected.  I won't know for sure until I prime them though.

 

 

At last, we are finally starting to look like a carriage (of sorts)

 

 

I ca'd a bunch of 90° formers inside to hold the sides in the correct position while I work out what the hell I'm supposed to be doing.  The super glue will allow me to break the formers out when the time is right.  Still a lot of work to do before then though.

 

 

I remade the vestibule ends as the windows were slightly off center of the panel.  You can see I have also propped a door in there too - purely for my own visual gratification you understand.

Actually, this photo highlights one of the build issues I am going to have to overcome somehow. It's a nice feature of the Pullman's but it does add some complexity to the build.  If you look closely at the photo, you will see that the vestibule ends are inset slightly from the side frames.  Then to complicate matters further, the entrance doors are further inset from the vestibule ends. So I have all these returns in the bodywork, and just to add icing to the cake, they are not sharp corners. - They are all nicely radiused.

 

 

This photo illustrates the fact nicely  (I haven't even begun to think how I am going to manage those transfers and pinstriping 

(I'm not sure who the photo is credited to - if anyone knows, I can add the credits or remove the photo if preferred)

 

 

This angle shows more of what I'll be dealing with.  S'fun this modeling malarkey.. isn't it ?

 

 

Since I cut out the door, I'm now wondering if I should make the door and the door frame as one single panel - i.e. just scribe the door outline into a rectangular panel. Of course, that means I could never open the door. But since it's going to be a static model inside a display case... will the door ever be opened ?  I haven't figured out my final display preferences just quite yet.  (I think at least one door on each side will be opened)

 

So, vestibule ends remade, I am now adding the returns. A piece of scrap brass channel taped onto the end panel helps hold everything straight while I glue the return in place.

 

 

Of course, now that I have got that far with the vestibule end, I am now toying with the idea of making the darn thing out of brass      Well, aside from having to cut out the two windows, and the vestibule doorway, there's only 6 bends in the piece - yeah... right.... and every bend would have to be in the right location, all parallel to each other, and the entire vestibule end cut to length before I started as there's now way to easily trim it afterwards.  Insanity I tell you !!!

 

 

 

 

[perdu]

As a plasticist to the bone I would prefer to 'LIKE' your plastic work, which is always fabulous

 

As a realist I don't mind if you use gold, platinum or any other -um except very rare unobtainium (look folks if he uses that  we'll never see it finished) so brass might be a very good option

 

That machine of yours, I susposes you have all the software updates available for the pesky thing?

 

I thought so

 

Those misplaced corners, I get that any excess mmmwahh or whatever it decides on for sizing and cutting 'slack' will acumulate as it cuts round the irregular bits

 

It must see curves as irregular, I'm assuming (I know...) it sees curves as irregular and straight lines as fixed cut lines

 

I wonder if it would cut out a box with diagonal sectors at the corners leaving you the minor task of 'fixing' the angles into radii?

 

Its all quite beyond my pay grade thank the deity 

[hendie]

yup, all latest updates and small furry sacrifices made and it still won't play the game.

 

such is life.

 

I'm quite confident I can overcome the window issues.  My bigger bugbear at the moment is when to paint.   The interior is going to take months, and will be a bugger to mask up, and I do not want to have to paint with the windows in. 

The sides and ends really need to be fixed in place before I do the interior so it looks like I may have to paint the bodywork in the not too distant future - and then have to protect it for the next two years of the build.

 

I reckon that I'm about 30% of the way through the build at the moment.  The interior and various fittings will be about 50%, the roof about 15% and the paint job will be the remaining 5%

[bentwaters81tfw]

Right Hendie. I'm going to play Devil's advocate here. Why not take a leaf out of the model railway guys book? You can buy a basic coach, and buy an interior seating unit with compartments, corridors etc.

Make your interior as a sub assembly on a false floor and then insert it into the shell, then add the roof. Should save you some work, otherwise it gonna be like wallpapering your hall and staircase through the letterbox.

[hendie]

that's one approach - and I'll think that one through a bit more. 

The problem here is that there are so many compartments: 2 vestibules, 2 corridors, 1 dinette, 1 kitchen, 1 bathroom, and the large bar area.

 

 

Now, while a lot of the stuff is drop -in (sort of), there are a few items which are connected to both the floor and the walls, not to mention side-frame to side-frame.

 

My half thought through plan at the moment involves having a removable roof, so it'll be more like wallpapering your hall and staircase from the top of the stairs... perched on a stepladder.

 

That said.... I do like a challenge

 

 

 

 

[longshanks]

Couple of thoughts on the cut outs with radii that may be of help for the future.

Drill correct size holes in the corners and join with the straight cuts

Cut the aperture as a square. Drill the correct size hole in scrap, cut into quarters. Glue the quarters in place to form the corners. Due to the nature of plastic/glue they will become as one.

 

Vestibule curves. Would it be possible to form profiles/formers taken as looking down on the area. Then laminate the wall area and cut the door out later.

 

Reference the interior. How about building  a left and right side as L's taking the floor cut through the doorways.

 

Probably all hopeless but the correct idea my come from the 'train' of thought.

 

I'm off to lie down in a dark place

 

Kev

 

[RichO]

Great stuff Hendie, sure your scratchin' skills are makin' this look good.

[Pete in Lincs]

Build each compartment as a separate unit

using temporary outside formers, in a similar

way to how you aligned the side frames then

drop them in and laminate the adjoining walls?

[Harley John]

Awesome work.

[hendie]

thanks for all the suggestions again folks - keep 'em coming, even if they're pulled from Baldrick's Compendium of Cunning Plans (unabridged version)

 

Work continues although not very much in the way of the photogenic variety.  I started the white paint on the reinforcement plates on top of the bogies.  Got the 4 buffer castings cast in resin and ready to go. Then I gave the side frames their first coat of primer today.  It looks like there may be some very slight sinking due to the glue, but only very slight - and it may well work to my advantage.  The vehicle is slab sided, and Blakes (built the 1:1) did a fantastic job of eliminating seams and avoiding tin-canning (or whatever the correct term is), but inevitably with a vehicle that size, there is some variation in the side when viewed from certain angles.

The slight sinking that has occurred in the styrene may possibly look pseudo realistic when it's all painted. I'll know more once I have done some sanding and probably a few more coats of primer.

 

The rest of the day was spent messing about with the lathe.  I finally found out how to take the last bits of it apart - then spent the next half hour trying to get it back together again.

I also learned a bit more about lathe-ery stuff - namely the fact that it's impossible to turn down a small diameter brass rod without using a follower rest.  And I don't have a follower rest ! - The rod keeps flexing out of the way of the cutting tool.

I was attempting to make the rods that fit between the buffers and the castings, but it didn't turn out very well.  - but I learned something, so it wasn't totally wasted time.  There's no hurry for those and there's plenty of other stuff to be going on with.

 

 

[Bigdave22014]

May I recommend a different type glue for assembling the sides? a friend that makes his own coaches uses this when laminating plastic sides and framework together:

 

Other brands are available. I think it uses citric acid as its base.

[perdu]

You know I think there's a tool (the name of which escapes my elderly memory) that turns small diameters whilst travelling with a rear supporting bearing device

 

It is a block which has a roller behind that encounters the workpiece at the same time the cutter makes a cut

 

(And if there isn't such a tool I'll blarry well go orf and invent one)  

 

 

[hendie]

methinks that's the follower rest, or a steady rest (both targets for some future purchase)

[Fastcat]

Perdu,

               There is such a tool, and amazingly it's called a steady!

 

Dave

[hendie]

A quick update - mostly experimentation though - nothing certain at this point.

 

However, first up is certain - the primer is on the side frames ! w00t !   You can see how the two frames on the left compare to the one on the right in terms of sink marks.  There's hardly any visible.  It's almost certain that some will show up with a gloss coat on there but I'm pretty pleased with how it's going at the moment.  The window openings need a little bit more work but I'll get there.  At least these guys are usable.

 

 

I was pleased at how the radius on the returns at the frame ends turned out.  I can see that a little filler is needed here and there, and a little more sanding, but overall, it's moving forward.

 

 

Now for the experiment...  My earlier attempts using yer akchul mahogany didn't turn out too well.  This time I went for basswood (which I believe is similar to balsa.)  Here, I just took a couple of scraps and threw some brown shoe polish on them.  The effect isn't displeasing.

 

 

The nice thing is that when they're buffed up they get a nice sheen to them which I think will suit the interior.  The downside is that it's very unlikely I will be able to get anything to stick to them since this is a wax finish.  I'm going to investigate stain and a satin clear coat before making any rash decisions.  The grain is still a little bit on the large side, but I think this will be acceptable once everything is in place inside the coach.

 

 

My next experiment was chair making.... there's going to be lots of these in this coach.

Starting off with a couple of pieces of plastic card, and a dod of milliput....

 

 

Then sometime later we have the beginnings of a chair.

 

 

Followed up with some refinement (and I use the term very loosely !)

 

 

I'm almost pleased with the seat, but I think I can do better.  I have a few ideas I'd like to try out to get the correct shape of the curves and seams.  (not sure what the correct term is for furniture type geometry)

Since most a lot of the interior will be taken up with these blighters, I want to make sure I have a master that I am completely happy with before I go casting a dozen or so of them.

 

 

 

 

[longshanks]

End radius is looking right .....

 

Chair looking comfy

 

Quietly moving forward

 

Kev

[roymattblack]

Absolutely mind boggling stuff.

It's going to be a masterpiece.

[perdu]

Steady huh

 

I knew there had to be something, we've been engineering thin turned materials for centuries haven't we

 

So moving along (towards the bar I assume) the seat is already rather good, you'll soon get it to your satisfaction

 

As for getting stuff to stick to boot polish, have you never walked a Metropolitan footpath/sidewalk (P defers to Hendie's present home) and had to unstick stuff from the buffed to perfection surface?

 

I know I have...

 

I'm sure you can stick stuff to it with stupor or Gators too

 

You might have to drill a tiny glue hole at worst

 

All of which goes to explain me saying

 

Bootpolish has performed brilliantly,just like it always do!

The sides do look rather fab, nicely radiied ends too

[hendie]

On 3/1/2017 at 6:22 AM, perdu said:

So moving along (towards the bar I assume) the seat is already rather good, you'll soon get it to your satisfaction

 

well, I think I'm going to scrap that one above.  

 

I had a ridiculously screwy idea last night and started working on it - so far it seems to be panning out.  It involves some rather unconventional thinking and assembly of several non-chair related ehhrrrr ... things, which, if all goes well, will allow me to make a master so I can make a mold so I can make a casting that I can phnargle so I can make a master so I can make a mold so I can make a casting so I can make a chair.  I think.  Actually, double that cos there's two of everything, not chairs (there's a dozen of them!), parts of the chair I mean... if you see what I mean.

[perdu]

I like the sound of that

 

I haven't a clue what you mean but master, the faith is strong in this believer

 

[Pete in Lincs]

I think he's a flim flam artist and reserve

my opinions until I see the finished article.

(Probably)

[Brandy]

I'll join Bill in claiming to have not the foggiest idea what you're talking about, but a definite interest in finding out!

 

Ian

[Nigel Heath]

That wood looks really good.

[hendie]

thanks Nigel.  I think it could do with being just a touch darker with a hint of red in there.  I'm heading out today to see if I can source a suitable stain.

[perdu]

Do them that 'murricans not have access to Kiwi Ox Blood shoe polish?

 

If need be old chap I can post you mine, I hardly ever polish the Nikes nowadays...

 

😁