Battle of Britain era Luftwaffe camouflage

[Stew Dapple]

Graham, Super Aero notes on the previous page that:

7A + FM was the Ju 88 A-1 Wn. 362 from 4(F)/121

... which would make it a reconnaissance aircraft - whether that makes it more likely to sport a non-standard - or a maritime - scheme is arguable... but as you say, if we accept that it has a non-standard underside it makes it hard to argue that it could not have had a non-standard topside.

Cheers,

Stew

[Graham Boak]

Not really - what better unit to experiment with underside colours than a high (by the standards of the time) altitude recce unit? The uppersurface doesn't have quite the same need. That the undersurface colour matched British undersides may not have been thought a drawback but an advantage.

There is some internal evidence in the report about the writer's affiliation: the expectation that German aircraft have a single colour green implies a lack of knowledge. The comparison with the uncommon British colour Dark Sea Green suggest either considerable knowledge, or that he has picked this from a colour chart. (Both are possible.) It is perhaps possible to have a specialist deeply involved in British colour with no knowledge of the German, but by this stage of the war?

However, the other point to bear in mind is that he may be writing this report with less-informed superiors in mind rather than for fellow specialists (and certainly not for future historians!). As such, it is written "from first principles" when describing the pattern. That he describes it fully may not mean that it is new to him.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Graham Boak

[jimmaas]

It was not a Kampfgeschwader, but rather a long-range Aufklarungsgruppe - Aufkl. Gr.(F) 121. Since any long range recon would, at that point, presume over-water flight, maybe this was a trial for what would later become standard on Do-217's and other Ju-88's.

Whoops, guess I took too long typing - unit already identified while I was looking it up!

Edited November 28, 2014 by jimmaas

[Graham Boak]

Hang on Jim, whereas many such recce flights did use the North Sea or the Irish sea routes, by no means all required such. The Channel wasn't that wide compared with the time over the UK to photograph (for example) Coventry.

[Nick Nichols]

Regarding the report on the upper surface colors for Ju-88 7A+FM, there may be a good reason for drawing attention to the colors as unusual - maybe they were not 70/71. I pulled out my copy of British Aviation Colours and also Michael Ullmann's Luftwaffe Colours 1935-1945 to compare colour chips.

But if you look at colour chips from Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings, 1933-1945, Vol. 2 by Ken Merrick and Jürgen Kiroff, you will see that they are different from Ullmann's chips. Ullman is not a panacea...

[old thumper]

It was not a Kampfgeschwader, but rather a long-range Aufklarungsgruppe - Aufkl. Gr.(F) 121. Since any long range recon would, at that point, presume over-water flight, maybe this was a trial for what would later become standard on Do-217's and other Ju-88's.

Whoops, guess I took too long typing - unit already identified while I was looking it up!

The Dornier DO17P was still common in these units during the Battle of Britain, one was shot down over Dorset and displayed in Bournemouth.

[Nick Millman]

FWIW

MAP Dark Green vs RLM 70 is @ 7.44 (where < 2.0 = a close match) RLM 70 is a Munsell Green (G)

MAP Dark Green vs RLM 71 is @ 4.44. RLM 71 is darker and greyer. Both are Munsell Green-Yellow (GY)

MAP Dark Green vs RLM 72 is @ 7.99. RLM 72 is a Munsell Green (G)

MAP Dark Green vs RLM 73 is @ 10.5. RLM 73 is a Munsell Blue (but only just - 0.5B 2.3/0.4 close to a very dark Blue Green - BG).

RLM colours measured from Tafel 5 (1941). These are the paint colour standards so the applied paints would not be absolutely identical but all things being equal an observer is more likely to describe RLM 71 as being similar to MAP Dark Green rather than RLM 70, 72 or 73.

Sky on a recce JU-88 - intended to create a cursory impression of an RAF aircraft from below?

MAP Sky vs Hellgrünblau = 4.37. Both are Munsell GY and Hellgrünblau is included in Tafel 5. An observer would be likely to describe paints applied to match those standards as identical.

[Hook]

Perhaps a crazy thought - could the "Sky" colour on the undersides of the Ju 88 not be RLM02?

After all, this shade 1) is a greenish grey (or greyish green), rather like Sky, and 2) was already in field use by Luftwaffe units for modifying standard factory patterns to better suit the local conditions in the area of operation.

Cheers,

Andre

Edited November 30, 2014 by Hook

[Edgar]

why is their this blank refusal to accept the possibility (Blenheims with blue undersides had been shot down in France, and the Germans had an intact Camotint/Sky-painted P.R. Spitfire delivered into their hands) that the Germans, seeing how Sky worked, might have matched it, and used it themselves?

The writer of the report said the colour was identical to Sky, not the paint used for German internal areas, nor any other German colour; it's entirely likely that Farnborough did not have colour cards with German designations, but it's a fairly safe bet that they would have had colour samples of the British colours with which to make comparisons.

[Nick Millman]

As already mentioned in post # 32 (sigh) Sky and the Luftwaffe Hellgrünblau are similar and in applied paints would probably look exactly similar to an observer. I don't know what use Hellgrünblau was intended for but it is included in Tafel 5 with no RLM number.

Sky and RLM 02 do not match, are not the same hue and are not remotely similar. The difference is 17.6 where < 2.0 is a close match.

[Super Aereo]

We should not - perhaps - entirely forget the practice of overspraying the sides of day fighters with a very diluted application of RLM02, which had the effect of giving the undelying RLM65 a greenish appearance, albeit different in hue from Sky.

The appearance of Hellgrünblau in the Tafel 5 took place at a later date, after all.

An intriguing conundrum, really.

[Nick Millman]

The appearance of Hellgrünblau in the Tafel 5 took place at a later date, after all.

Did it? I had at first presumed Herr Kiroff had added it to the 1941 Tafel 5 just to show its existence but now I'm not so sure of his intention. It can be seen included here as colour # 24 on the Tafel 5 chart:-

http://www.farbkarten-shop.de/Farbstandards/Farbkarten-weitere/Deutschland/RLM-Farben::174.html

Merrick et al state the earliest probable reference to this Luftwaffe "Sky" colour is from a Halifax crew in October 1943, describing a BV 222 as overall "duck egg blue". But perhaps Edgar's RAE report now documents an even earlier date for its appearance?

Ullmann shows a similar colour just as a variation of RLM 76. The reality is that old light blue paint often turns blue-green/turquoise as a result of the yellowing binder but that is unlikely to be the case in the RAE report and Halifax observation.

[Super Aereo]

Ullmann shows a similar colour just as a variation of RLM 76. The reality is that old light blue paint often turns blue-green/turquoise as a result of the yellowing binder but that is unlikely to be the case in the RAE report and Halifax observation.

Is there any chance that the colour could have been undergone a similar deterioration while stored in its container or that it could have deteriorated very quickly after application due to the use of incorrect solvents? Just shooting in the dark here, mind you.

Flavio

[Graham Boak]

Could this colour also be an answer to the end-of-war "RLM 84" queries? When paints were running low, turning to stocks of a colour that had been prepared but never (or rarely) called for?

I have always felt that this Halifax crew report is likely to be describing RLM 76, "duck egg blue" being a somewhat imprecise term. Just because it was used to describe Sky doesn't mean all such references imply a close match.

[Super Aereo]

Another thought: RLM77 was the prescribed colour for high-flying reconnaissance aircraft: could the mysterious hue on this Ju 88 be an early incarnation of this colour, perhaps in a slightly greener version?

[Super Aereo]

Although RLM77 was not introduced until 1942 IIRC.

[Nick Millman]

Another thought: RLM77 was the prescribed colour for high-flying reconnaissance aircraft: could the mysterious hue on this Ju 88 be an early incarnation of this colour, perhaps in a slightly greener version?

FWIW RLM 77 vs Sky = 14.3 where < 2.0 = a close match. Tafel 5 lists it as Dunkelgrau (!) but it is a Munsell Blue very close to RAL 7040 Fenstergrau (window grey). It is difficult to imagine anyone describing it as being identical to Sky unless they had been hit on the head with the AVG 'Sky Grey' stick.

[Nick Millman]

Is there any chance that the colour could have been undergone a similar deterioration while stored in its container or that it could have deteriorated very quickly after application due to the use of incorrect solvents? Just shooting in the dark here, mind you.

Flavio

Possibly, especially if it was a unit applied rather than factory colour. Cellulose paints are generally more susceptible to contamination in the tin and vulnerable to inadequate preparation before spraying. Any white pigment tends to conglomerate at the bottom of the tin and can harden out from there so that cursory stirring could result in a colour with less white than intended. But the German synthetic lacquers could be expected to be less susceptible to that. Some original Luftwaffe tins were found recently in Europe and were supposedly going to be used to produce original paint colour but it seems to have gone quiet on that front.

Yellowing binder is more prone with extant paint samples kept out of light as UV tends to bleach out the amber/yellow in the same way as decal film. Whether the binder is more prone to yellowing on a surface underneath an aircraft is an interesting question.

[Graham Boak]

The light colour used for the codes on one Ju87 unit in 1940 has been claimed to be RLM77, which counts against a 1942 introduction. Or we need another suggestion for the codes. Also, the desert colours 78/79/80 were available (at least the earlier versions) in 1941 so RLM77 must have been at least conceived and accepted before then.

I wasn't aware of RLM77 being specified for recce aircraft undersides. Given that it is a light colour it would seem to be an unlikely choice.