Battle of Britain era Luftwaffe camouflage

[oldgit]

Chaps,

Can anyone please help with further information regarding Battle of Britain era Luftwaffe camouflage?

Late Battle of Britain Luftwaffe fighter colours

Evidence in several books I have read suggest that generally speaking, the Luftwaffe Bf109 and Bf110 aircraft during the Battle of Britain moved from the RLM 65/70/71 camouflage scheme colours to RLM 65/02/71 and then finally to a series of grey shades, possibly RLM74/75/76. Can any ‘experten’

out there please confirm any particular Bf109E/F’s and Bf110C/D’s that may have worn the 74/75/76 colours during the Battle of Britain?

Anecdotal evidence, some apparently from British reports of Luftwaffe crash landings in the UK also suggests that an under surface colour similar to ‘sky’ may have been used by a very few Luftwaffe aircraft during the Battle of Britain, along with colours similar to light blue and even a light brown being used as part of upper surface camouflage on even fewer. Does anyone have any information that might expand upon these colours and usage? Can any specific aircraft be identified ?

Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine camouflage colours

I believe that in 1940 at least some WW2 German maritime aircraft were camouflaged in RLM 72/73 greens rather than the more standard RLM 70/71. I’m not sure however, how widespread the use of 72/73 colours was. Were they used on all ‘over water’ aircraft, only on flying boats and seaplanes, or only on certain types?

Thanks everyone, much appreciated as always,

Tim

[Graham Boak]

My understanding is that all flying boats and seaplanes used 72/73, as this was introduced at the same time as 70/71. The intention was that other maritime aircraft were to use 72/73, but it appears that Junkers continued painting their Ju88s in 70/71. However, at a slightly later date the Do217 was painted in 72/73 regardless of role, perhaps because this aircraft had its origin in a maritime requirement?

[Edgar]

In October 1940 Farnborough examined a shot-down Ju-88, and found that the original underside blue had been overpainted by a new colour which was an exact match to Sky. The original top surface dark green had also been overpainted by a lighter green in 6' bands, similar to the British scheme, but rectilinear rather than curved.

[brewerjerry]

Hi

I wonder would the paint have been from captured stocks ?

I read once some 109's may have used captured russian paint on the east front.

Cheers

Jerry

Edited November 26, 2014 by brewerjerry

[old thumper]

I'm pretty sure the Kriegsmarine never actually had any aircraft of it's own and that even warship catapult planes were Luftwaffe, I recollect there being a ruling made by Goring that anything which flew was under his control, I'm only about 95% sure of this though.

[Rich G]

Hi Tim,

I wouldn't consider myself an expert in this area, but I do have a fond interest in the subject.

I've got quite a few of the Luftwaffe Colours books, in the Jagdwaffe Volume two section 3 book covering the period of September to October 1940, there are numerous referances to the use of the RLM 65/02/71 scheme being used in a lot of units.

Particular units of note are JG54 aircraft which applied heavy mottling of the 02/71 along the sides of the aircraft, where as JG3 still used a high demarcation scheme of RLM 65/02/71 with no mottling at all.

The two schemes of high demarcation with no mottling and the alternative heavy mottling approach seems to be how most units dealt with the camoflage on their aircraft during the late period of the battle.

There were however some distinct 'unique' schemes that were locally applied to either reduce the distinction of the demarcation between the 70/71 and 65 or the 02/71 and 65, some of these appeared as varying degrees of mottling some more subtle than others, some are cris-cross patterns and others were 'reverse mottling' which used heavy amounts of the 02/71 to cover the sides of the aircraft and had more distinct demarcation than the usual mottling approach essecntially they painted RLM 02 all over the side and then put bloches of RLM 71 over that.

Also there were some locally mixed paints which resembled a RLM 65/74/75 scheme, a couple of 4./JG26 aircraft used locally mixed paints. It seems that during the battle and towards the end in particular there is a wide range of DIY paint jobs throughout the Luftwaffe's fighter units on the western front, which was generally ratified with the introduction of the 74/75/76 scheme in mid 1941.

There are no real hard and fast answers as there is such a wide range of schemes.

I would recommend buying the Luftwaffe Colours books if you have more than a passing interest, they are very good referance material for this subject and you could use them to referance individual aircraft that catch you're eye as there are some beautiful schemes.

I hope this helps,

Rich

[Troy Smith]

HI Tim

have a careful read here

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234966657-all-the-stupid-bf109-questions-here/page-3

some info, the JG 26 plane at Duxford is a confirmed grey scheme.

A lot the colour description is from RAF reports, which are descriptive, but subjective, note the comment in #59

Regarding the Crashed enemy aircraft reports, while there's no doubt in my mind that grey colors were tested during the Battle of Britain there's at least one confirmed incident were colors described as grey in such a report were found post war to have been a regular 02/71 scheme.

The reports do add another part of the puzzle but can't be relied upon without additional background info.

In case it gets lost in the avove thread, this is worth reading

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234939571-rlm83/page-5#entry1703253

Clinton78 aka Clint Mitchel from the Luftwaffe Research Group - http://www.luftwaffe-research-group.org/ and the defunct but still available Luftwaffe Experten Message Board

For more detailed information, I'd join the www.luftwaffe-research-group.org and see what the current thinking is.

HTH

T

[Edgar]

I wonder would the paint have been from captured stocks ?

It's possible; Blenheims with "light blue" undersides were being sent to France before the end of 1939, and fighter Squadrons were demanding an end to the black/white scheme during their time in France. Edited November 26, 2014 by Edgar

[Stonar]

You do need a little circumspection when interpreting CEARs.

They are a valuable source of information, but often deal with the overall camouflage scheme in a very cursory way. It is also difficult to know how many other aircraft the author had seen, what he was comparing a particular scheme to etc.

They are very subjective. Remember that one man's greyish green is another man's greenish grey

Combat Reports sometimes give some intriguing descriptions of camouflage too. I don't suppose accurate observation of the camouflage scheme was exactly at the top of a pilot's agenda at the time though.

Edit. Just thought to add that there was an inevitable tendency for the writers of reports to reference colours they knew in their description. Hence, 'battleship grey' turns up in the context of a Bf 109. A colour similar to Sky would be described as such, using Sky as the reference, assuming the writer was familiar with the British colour.

Cheers

Steve

Edited November 26, 2014 by Stonar

[Aeronut]

The mention of the German use of Sky reminded me that I have the text of an RAE reporrt that mentions it.

The report is No EA14/7 dated October 1940 and even by the standards of the day it is brief to say the least.

Here is the full text - let the argument begin (anyone got photos of a Ju88 marked 7A + FM ?)

Enemy Aircraft - JU. 88 No 7 AFM.

Examination of camouflage scheme

D Summary

Attention is called to the existence on this enemy aircraft (stamped June, 1940) of a scheme of camouflage

apparently copied in several particulars from British aircraft, The underfaces are painted a uniform duck-egg bluish-green

colour identical with the Sky colour of British aircraft. Until this aircraft was seen, German aircraft undersurfaces

examined were painted light blue, and this colour has been overpainted with the new colour. The under surfaces have a

banded camouflage pattern, obtained by overpainting bands of a lighter green on the original uniform dark green.

Report

All the undersurfaces of the wings, nacelle, tail-plane, fuselage, including the bomb-aimer's compartment under

the cabin, are painted a uniform duck-egg bluish-green colour identical with the Sky colour of British aircraft, This

colour has been painted over the original light blue colour until now found usual on German aircraft. The original blue

colour is still visible on the less accessible parts of the undersurfaces.

All the upper surfaces of the wings, nacelles, fuselage, tail-planes and elevators, spinners and vertical surfaces of the fuselage, fin and

rudder, are painted in a banded camouflage scheme obtained by overpainting, in 6 ft wide bands of lighter green, the original uniform

dark green of the upper surfaces. The form of the bands resemble the British scheme, but the outlines are rectilinear instead of irregularly curved.

The lighter green colour is similar to, though rather darker than the British Dark Green aeroplane colour. The darker green colour is similar to

though darker than, the British Extra Dark Sea Green. The colour contrast between the two shades of green, is quite small.

The line of demarcation on the fuselage, between the Sky colour and the green camouflage colours, is approximately at the same position as defined on the

British air diagrams, ie at the point where a 60° tangent with the horizontal meets the fuselage.

[Troy Smith]

The mention of the German use of Sky reminded me that I have the text of an RAE reporrt that mentions it.

The report is No EA14/7 dated October 1940 and even by the standards of the day it is brief to say the least.

Here is the full text - let the argument begin (anyone got photos of a Ju88 marked 7A + FM ?)

Enemy Aircraft - JU. 88 No 7 AFM.

Examination of camouflage scheme

D Summary

Attention is called to the existence on this enemy aircraft (stamped June, 1940) of a scheme of camouflage

apparently copied in several particulars from British aircraft, The underfaces are painted a uniform duck-egg bluish-green

colour identical with the Sky colour of British aircraft. Until this aircraft was seen, German aircraft undersurfaces

examined were painted light blue, and this colour has been overpainted with the new colour. The under surfaces have a

banded camouflage pattern, obtained by overpainting bands of a lighter green on the original uniform dark green.

Report

All the upper surfaces of the wings, nacelles, fuselage, tail-planes and elevators, spinners and vertical surfaces of the fuselage, fin and

rudder, are painted in a banded camouflage scheme obtained by overpainting, in 6 ft wide bands of lighter green, the original uniform

dark green of the upper surfaces. The form of the bands resemble the British scheme, but the outlines are rectilinear instead of irregularly curved.

The lighter green colour is similar to, though rather darker than the British Dark Green aeroplane colour. The darker green colour is similar to

though darker than, the British Extra Dark Sea Green. The colour contrast between the two shades of green, is quite small.

The line of demarcation on the fuselage, between the Sky colour and the green camouflage colours, is approximately at the same position as defined on the

British air diagrams, ie at the point where a 60° tangent with the horizontal meets the fuselage.

As the standard uppers should be RLM 70/71, in a rectilinear scheme.... sounds like the reporter was not up on his Luftwaffe camo, which is a good description of a standard splinter camo, as shown below.

I have not heard of any BoB era bombers with single colour uppers.

Shows up well the problems using RAE reports.

Is 7A + FM the actual code, or just a report number?

[Aeronut]

7A + FM is aircraft's squadron code, its the way Farnborough identified captured / crashed German aircraft rather than using a Werke number.

[Stew Dapple]

As the standard uppers should be RLM 70/71, in a rectilinear scheme.... sounds like the reporter was not up on his Luftwaffe camo, which is a good description of a standard splinter camo, as shown below.

I have not heard of any BoB era bombers with single colour uppers.

Shows up well the problems using RAE reports.

I don't think it's correct to say that the reporter was not up on his Luftwaffe camouflage, "The underfaces are painted a uniform duck-egg bluish-green colour identical with the Sky colour of British aircraft. Until this aircraft was seen, German aircraft undersurfaces examined were painted light blue..." - certainly implies he seen the underside colour of a German aircraft before, why assume he does not know what he is talking about with the topside colours?

I have not heard of a single-colour uppersurface on German bombers either, but he is not describing a single colour anyway, but two colours with banding resembling the British pattern but with a straight edge - the emphasis being on the pattern, not the edge which as you note was straight-edged on German aircraft anyway.

It's not a terribly well written report I grant you, but it should not be dismissed out of hand because of some ambiguity over what was meant in the description of the uppersurface camouflage.

Cheers,

Stew

[Stonar]

The above is exactly what I was urging caution for.

I agree that the description of the upper surface camouflage sounds a lot like a standard 70/71 scheme. Rectilinear outlines of two green colours of low contrast is almost exactly how I would describe such a scheme. It must be possible that the author of the report was inexperienced and unfamiliar with Luftwaffe camouflage.

The lower surface had obviously been repainted in a colour resembling Sky as the original 'light blue' (RLM 65) was visible in places.

Cheers

Steve

[Edgar]

Remember that Farnborough were responsible for mixing, and issuing colour cards of, the colours used by British aircraft; bearing that in mind, it actually seems to be a very clear report, by a Farnborough employee (back to his head office,) of the colours that the Germans were now using, compared to what had been seen previously.

Since the Air Ministry would already be fully aware of the efficiency of Sky, at medium altitudes, this report could lead Farnborough to lead experiments on other colours for the upper surfaces, by day and night, which is what they did; they eventually led to green/grey for daytime fighters and green/light grey for nightfighters, replacing the old schemes.

[Super Aereo]

7A + FM was the Ju 88 A-1 Wn. 362 from 4(F)/121 that force-landed ad Oakington on 19 September 1940. The aircraft was consequently taken to Farnborough for examination.

Existing images appear to show a standard splinter camouflage on the upper surfaces, (see pages 459-461 of Luftwaffe Crash Archive Vol.4).

[Stonar]

7A + FM was the Ju 88 A-1 Wn. 362 from 4(F)/121 that force-landed ad Oakington on 19 September 1940. The aircraft was consequently taken to Farnborough for examination.

Existing images appear to show a standard splinter camouflage on the upper surfaces, (see pages 459-461 of Luftwaffe Crash Archive Vol.4).

I agree, as usual the scheme is hard to see on many photos, but is evident in the close up of the area behind the canopy.

Conjecture about what the report's author had or had not seen might not be useful, but remember that all the crashed Luftwaffe aircraft which he might have seen, including many that would not sport a 70/71 splinter scheme upper camouflage, would have RLM 65 undersides. It is entirely possible that he had seen 'light blue' under sides but not the 70/71 splinter.

Cheers

Steve

[Super Aereo]

(...) It is entirely possible that he had seen 'light blue' under sides but not the 70/71 splinter.

It is also possible that a small contrast between two different batches of RLM65 might have looked like an approximation of Sky over the "normal" colour.

This is not to say that experimental colours might not have been issued and used.

Flavio

[Stonar]

Well, I'd expect an RAE employee to be familiar with the British colour Sky which had been introduced some five months earlier. Sky was very different from RLM 65 and the report does use the words 'identical with the Sky colour of British aircraft'. Heaven only knows what was actually applied.

The German 70/71 scheme had been in use since before the war, so can hardly have been news to the Farnborough paint boffins in November 1940. I happen to think that the author of the report must have been unfamiliar with the scheme and got a bit carried away with his 'discovery'. Again, we'll never know.

Cheers

Steve

[leyreynolds]

If memory serves, there was (is?) an On Target Special on the BoB which discussed non-standard colour schemes.

[Troy Smith]

Well, I'd expect an RAE employee to be familiar with the British colour Sky which had been introduced some five months earlier. Sky was very different from RLM 65 and the report does use the words 'identical with the Sky colour of British aircraft'. Heaven only knows what was actually applied.

The German 70/71 scheme had been in use since before the war, so can hardly have been news to the Farnborough paint boffins in November 1940. I happen to think that the author of the report must have been unfamiliar with the scheme and got a bit carried away with his 'discovery'. Again, we'll never know.

Cheers

Steve

One point re 'Sky' bear in mind there was confusion about what colour it was when first introduced, along with filed mixes, and there is also 'Sky Blue' which is not that dissimilar to RLM 65, which was also apparently used as a 'sky' substitute.

The fact the chap think that German planes had one green colour uppersurfaces and what sounds like the standard splinter scheme is something new , to him at least, means perhaps he was not really that aware of Luftwaffe paint schemes, and the RAE had plenty of German bombers to examine by this point.

[Edgar]

The only confusion, regarding Sky, was with the airfields/Squadrons who were supposed to use it, since they only had a name and vocabulary numbers (therefore should not have been confused with Sky Blue, which had a different set of numbers) with which to work.
Farnborough were perfectly well aware of what Sky/Camotint was, since they'd helped Cotton with the painting and preparation of his Blenheims in 1939, also his Spitfires long before the Battle of Britain. They would also have had to ensure that it was of the right material for use on aircraft, and would have been tasked with the job of supplying colour samples to the paint manufacturers who were to produce the paint.
They would not have sent out any "odd bod" to inspect a German aircraft, but someone well versed in colour, complete with a set of master colour samples, kept back for the purpose. If he said that the colour on the Ju-88 was identical (not "an approximation") to Sky, it was because he laid a sample on it and compared the two; do you really believe that his references ( to the greens being slightly darker than our Dark Green and Extra Dark Sea Green) were made without use of colour samples, and relied on memory?

[jimmaas]

Regarding the report on the upper surface colors for Ju-88 7A+FM, there may be a good reason for drawing attention to the colors as unusual - maybe they were not 70/71. I pulled out my copy of British Aviation Colours and also Michael Ullmann's Luftwaffe Colours 1935-1945 to compare color chips. The report found that:

"The lighter green colour is similar to, though rather darker than the British Dark Green aeroplane colour. The darker green colour is similar to though darker than, the British Extra Dark Sea Green. The colour contrast between the two shades of green, is quite small."

On Ullman's (supplement) chip chart, RLM 72 has a bit of olive and would not be inconsistent with a dark RAF Dark Green. Similarly, RLM 73 is a much purer green and at least to my eyes looks like it is in the same family as Extra Dark Sea Green. And the low contrast is typical of the RLM 72/73 combination. So the observer, perhaps used to typical 70/71 aircraft, may have been seeing the maritime colors.

[Stew Dapple]

Hi Jim,

It's a shame that we will probably never know, because that is an interesting idea; it certainly seems odd that the writer of the report singled out both the upper and lower colour schemes for specific colour matches rather than noting it simply as being in the standard scheme.

To state - or to guess - that the reason for this is that the writer had never seen a German aircraft, or a splinter camouflage scheme before is a bit patronising to say the least and to suggest that in late October 1940 there was still confusion about what colour 'Sky' was doesn't really seem feasible to me given the RAE's involvement with its development.

... but like I said, it's a shame that we will never know for sure.

Cheers,

Stew

[Graham Boak]

Re maritime colours: supposedly the Ju88s were delivered in 70/71 and were not seen in the maritime colours, unusual though that may seem. Particularly as many early Ju88s saw service in the Coastal flights rather than all going to the bomber units. However, as this one was from a bomber unit (yes?) there seems double reason to doubt that it was 72/73. Particularly as 71 is often described as being close to RAF Dark Green, matching the report, whereas the maritime colours are usually considered to be somewhat greyer. If we are to accept the man's comment on the underside, it seems perverse to deny it on the uppersurface.

However, RAE Farnborough had many specialists who would be interested in investigating a Ju88. By no means all of them would have been au fait with the subtleties of German or British camouflage. Perhaps we should find out just who it was made this report, and what his affiliation was, before being too dogmatic about what he may or may not have had in his pockets.