Etiennedup Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 For those of you interested......I have obtained a much better version of the colour image I had on my flickr site. See here https://www.flickr.com/photos/8270787@N07/5563260449/in/photolist-4E39zU-4Rmja5-df2UkW-67x854-9tBavB-5jn3Ph Cheers, Etienne. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f4h1phantom Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 Many thanks Etienne! Your flickr collection is amazing. Best wishes, Jorge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Eisenman Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) I know I'm going to catch it for this, and have a good discussion of light, shadows and munsell.... BUT... The gear door looks to be a distinctly different colour from the colour on the underside of the wing, andf there appears to be a different colour on the fuselage than on the underside of the wing... Or is the underside of the wing different because of some unidentified staining or the ZC showing? But it is all abouty my one year old iMac 27 inch montor...I know... Edited November 17, 2014 by Steven Eisenman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etiennedup Posted November 17, 2014 Author Share Posted November 17, 2014 No problem with your monitor dad.........there is a difference. Let's see what the 'guru's come up with.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moaning dolphin Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) I know I'm going to catch it for this, and have a good discussion of light, shadows and munsell.... BUT... The gear door looks to be a distinctly different colour from the colour on the underside of the wing, andf there appears to be a different colour on the fuselage than on the underside of the wing... Or is the underside of the wing different because of some unidentified staining or the ZC showing? But it is all abouty my one year old iMac 27 inch montor...I know... I think the issue with the undercarriage door could be due to the sun. I think it may be bleaching that, whilst the rest is in the shadow. The upper wing is also full of colour and heavily faded. I am more fascinated by the rig of the ground crew, a fine, smart body of men! but not sure what they are doing. If they are pushing the aircraft should they guy in front be hanging off the u/c door? If I was a crew chief seeing that I would throw something large at him lol! The other 2 seem to be holding the wing back, I'm wondering if this was 'staged' for the benefits of the duty fot? On closer inspection, it does look a different shade, or is that alot of staining on the leading edge? Edited November 17, 2014 by moaning dolphin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85sqn Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 Great photo, really shows alot of colour variation and sun bleaching. Rust on the wheels from the decks etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 The yellow on the leading edge appears to be the primer showing through, and making the colour appear yellower. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben_m Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 I agree with Graham, you can see the primer clearly in the top side colour. The zinc chromate is closer in colour to the underside, so not as obvious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 Note on the plane behind, the difference in shade of the overpainted underwing roundel, fresh sky or just use of white? as the roundel centre looks the same as the outer ring it looks white? Not being a BEIF expert is this possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iang Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) I believe that is 1844 Squadron 6F:FN383 on Indomitable during Operation Lentil in early January 1945. Obviously if could be 5F, but I believe that 1839 Squadron used a repeat of the individual letter on the engine cowl at deck level, to aid aircraft handlers, rather than identifying the aircraft on the gear cover, which was 1844 Squadron's practice. I'm a still a bit uncertain of this because there are not that many images to go on from this period. If it is FN383, it had been on charge with 1844 Squadron since 1943, which helps explain its well worn appearance. At first I thought the picture was colourised, as I have a contemporary black and white print of the same image, from the photographs and papers of S/Lt George Knot (1844 Squadron pilot). But on the reverse of George Knot's print, which is an Admiralty photo, it states that it is a colour image, passed by the censor on 22.1.45. The fact that this print is in his album also lends weight to it being an 1844 squadron aircraft. It shows how much is missed when the world is seen through black and white images: Edited November 17, 2014 by iang 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 It also appears as if they painted the Dark Slate Grey over seablue ... that's not EDSG, much too blue for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 You can see the EDSG on the outer wing - it has partially worn off near the root. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 You're right Graham. But what shows underneath looks definitely like the USN seablue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben_m Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I would be cautious about interpreting the dark areas on the wing as having a strong blue component, as the shadow areas under the drop tank, under the person in the cockpit's arm, and under the fuselage show a very strong blue bias, as if some digital manipulation to recover shadow areas (and return colour to shadows) has been carried out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 You're right Graham. But what shows underneath looks definitely like the USN seablue AFAIK the FAA had Hellcats delivered painted by Grumman in British specified colours. I have never heard of Hellcat's being delivered in USN colours and being repainted. Later deliveries were made in overall Glossy Sea Blue and not repainted. If Ian G is right I believe that is 1844 Squadron 6F:FN383 on Indomitable during Operation Lentil in early January 1945. then you could check it's history. Now, I have personally seen a fraction on the data Ian has, and he's not just making a guess,this based on A LOT of data. He'd be the chap to say if there was ever any evidence of Hellcat's being delivered to the FAA in the tri-colour scheme and being repainted. WW2 colour photos are not the best guide to colour, and while this is an upgraded, who knows what had been done to the colour reproduction. And this is a well weathered example, and in US made paint, which may well fade in a different way to British made paint, and this has been in the tropical sun. Finally, if you mean the 'blue' splatter's at the base of the folded wing part, look at the blob on the roundel. It's oil or water, now look at the sky, it may well just be picking up a blue tone from that. Note the changed colour of the Dark Slate Grey under the oil stains as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iang Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) You're right Graham. But what shows underneath looks definitely like the USN seablue It is just colour shift seen in prints from colour film of this period (Google blue colour shift if you are interested in the chemistry of why this happens) and/or digital over-correction from the analog print. There is documentary evidence that Grumman used colours that were a very good match for the MAP Temperate Sea Scheme. IG Edited November 18, 2014 by iang 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Just compare the colour on the wingtip (EDSG) to its opposite end close to the folding line,where the EDSG has chipped off. that is clearly sea blue, you can even see the remnants of EDSG in that area. Same on the fuselage side that above the leading edge. If the colour had shifted to blue overall the wing tip would not display faded EDSG. I am tired of hearing it must not be cause it cannot and all ... I look at pictures without prejudices and without having paint regulations taped to my glasses. I see what I see ... What do we know about the fore-history of this AC and how it was painted before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 If it is a colour film effect - anyone remember reddish-purple Bf109Fs? - that has affected the EDSG then it will not appear on areas of camouflage that were painted DSlateG. So look at a plan of the camouflage pattern and make a judgement based on evidence? That's a very vivid blue in the shadow of the wing under the cockpit - somehow this seems unlikely to be a patch of Gloss Sea Blue so this is certainly some evidence of film deterioration. Further, the inner wing leading edge is worn through to the yellow primer but there is no sign of any blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 If it is a colour film effect - anyone remember reddish-purple Bf109Fs? - that has affected the EDSG then it will not appear on areas of camouflage that were painted DSlateG. So look at a plan of the camouflage pattern and make a judgement based on evidence? That's a very vivid blue in the shadow of the wing under the cockpit - somehow this seems unlikely to be a patch of Gloss Sea Blue so this is certainly some evidence of film deterioration. Further, the inner wing leading edge is worn through to the yellow primer but there is no sign of any blue. I did not mean that part but the area in front of that that is in the sunlight ... like I said the wingtip IS clearly in the right shade of faded EDSG so you cannot explain the deep blue portions with a color film effect. The blue part on the wing has exactly the same lighting conditions and angle as the wing tip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iang Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) I am tired of hearing it must not be cause it cannot and all ... I look at pictures without prejudices and without having paint regulations taped to my glasses. I see what I see ... Equally, I'm tired of interpretations of 70 year old colour photos where colours are interpreted literally without consideration of colour shift, possible digital enhancement or, for that matter, variations in the representation of colour on individual monitors. What you see on your monitor might not actually be an accurate representation of the paint colours applied to the aircraft. It's that simple really. Edited November 18, 2014 by iang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 The emp-errors have no clothes but they always order that we see them with the finest outfit. Why don't you try to address the points I made instead of coming up with the usual truism? The color photo here is not of the worst quality and therefore relative statements about the colours can actually be made with a high degree of certainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Equally, I'm tired of interpretations of 70 year old colour photos where colours are interpreted literally without consideration of colour shift, possible digital enhancement or, for that matter, variations in the representation of colour on individual monitors. What you see on your monitor might not actually be an accurate representation of the paint colours applied to the aircraft. It's that simple really. Agree, but I think the images do carry a lot of important information. It reveals fade patterns and staining. One point I would like to make in regards to the gear door that looks lighter, it may have been repainted. It could have been damaged, replaced, or even the aircraft may have changed Squadrons and the coodes changed, which would have required a repaint of the door only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilh Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Regarding the lighter coloured gear door. If we assume that photo is not posed, its perhaps a reasonable assumption that someone damaged the small gear door when dragging the aircraft around by it, and when repaired it was repainted with whatever blue colour they had to hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 "whatever blue colour they had to hand" Sorry but this does seem to be one of the classic comments that completely disregard the realities of both aviation and wartime service life. Just how many different blue colours do you think they had to hand on an escort carrier out in the Indian Ocean? Remember to rule out any that were not specifically aircraft paints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudioN Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) Gentlemen, as always, discussions about colour and its interpretation tend to heat up. For what it's worth, let me add my viewpoint. 1) although exceptions do exist (and, from a modelling viewpoint, are interesting) I do not expect them to be very common 2) colour regulations were adhered to, as far as possible. While looking at pictures through regulations may sound too narrow-minded, I think it can be taken as a good starting point 3) I try to avoid matching colours (or grey levels) across different pictures and, even on the same picture, I am extremely careful about comparing surfaces with different lighting (e.g., shade versus direct sunlight, or different inclination of the surface) This is, I believe, plain common sense which we all agree about. Considering this, I usually try to decide whether the simplest explanation fits the image. This, again, is the common way to deal with any research matter. Of course, the simplest explanation may be the most boring, i.e., the aircraft is finished according to colour regulations in force at the time. My comments on the Hellcat. First, I definitely think the photo is posed. Those five guys are doing nothing! The one sitting in the cockpit should be looking at where the aircraft is heading… on the deck, not in the sky. Two are pretending they are pushing it… on the leading edge of a vertically folded wing. Pushing the wing trailing edge at the unfolded centre section sounds easier, but they wouldn't fit in the picture. Anyway, the other guy may shortly be inserting wheel chocks, thus stopping the beast. The last one is pulling the 10,000 lbs aircraft by a wheel well door, something that might prompt his crew-chief to throw him overboard, thus following the fate of his mate that had already tried doing the same with the front door. This had to be replaced and repainted, obviously in a non-standard colour (let's say, Sky Blue -- everybody knows that Indomitable picked up for her stores some Sky Blue, left over when the RAF switched to Azure Blue in the desert. The Admiralty requested it because it could be handy, one never knows… ) More seriously, I think this is a beautifully weathered EDSG/DGS/Sky machine, that would be challenging to model. My points: 1) most parts of the aircraft in undersurface colour appear a rather neutral light blue, with the exception of the wing leading edge, that is in direct sunlight. This may just be the effect of shadow, possibly helped by colour aging in the picture 2) the wheel well front door is angled upwards and reflects sunlight on a small part of the wing undersurface (photographers purposely use this trick to obtain indirect lighting). Like the wing leading edge, this part appears a more greenish/yellowish hue. Sky seems a reasonable colour, and I think chipping, that reveals the zinc chromate primer, is a satisfactory explanation for other yellowish areas. 3) the wing roundel, that we know was blue, appears a sort of dark grey, except in one area, where staining returns it to blue. I think this is one of the ways blue hues fade - chalking. Note there are other stain marks further outboard, on a Dark Slate Grey band, and they also change the colour. 4) Extra Dark Sea Grey, that has a bluish hue, is much affected by chalking, as well as by other effects (on the fuselage, hot exhaust gases have seemingly turned the lower fuselage into a lighter grey). These colour changes can be further altered, not only by oil (?) stains, but also in several other ways. The darker area on the wing (high up, and closer to the wing trailing edge) is right behind the machine guns access panels, i.e., a place where hands and boots frequently rub the paint, which may explain the darker grey up there. 5) are darker ares traces of US Sea Blue? In my opinion, this is unlikely. I do not recall ever reading about repaints of Hellcats from Sea Blue to EDSG/DSG/Sky and I think the timeframe would not fit. I also tend to discount the blue area that appears in the picture under the elbow of the man in the cockpit. That part of the image is in strong shade and I wouldn't trust the colour. Of course, this is just what I consider the less unlikely analysis of one picture and I have tried to explain why. Anybody may disagree and see other things. Cheers Claudio Edited November 21, 2014 by ClaudioN 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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