Mark Proulx Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Got some photos of a Corsair III, JS 675. I know the Corsair III a designator for the Brewster builds, but is this aircraft in effect a II only re-designated by the manufacturer? Are there any visible differences externally between a II and III? Thoughts on colors for the Brewster builds? Thanks for any help... Mark Proulx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFlint Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Brewster machines were painted in the Tri-color scheme and most were NOT used operationally apparently bad quality control kept most of them out of combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Bell Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Hi Mark, Beyond the serials, there's no easy way to distinguish Corsair IIs from Corsair IIIs. I've got one shot of a Brit Corsair with 531 on the nose and I'm still not sure if it's JS531 (Corsair III) or JT531 (Corsair II). Both types were delivered in FAA camouflage using Army Dark Olive Drab, ANA Sea Gray, and duPont 71-021 Sky (which is a debate all by itself). The outer wing panels for both companies were manufactured and painted by Briggs. Brit Corsairs used three different wing tips: the original US Navy tip, a short tip, and a "short short" tip, squarer than the original short tip. Mk Is came with the Navy tip, but several were rebuilt with the short tip by Andover Kent at Roosevelt Field, NY. (Most were not reconfigured.) Briggs had trouble slowing production to install the short tip at their factories, so 73 of the first Corsair IIIs (JS469 thru JS542, minus JS519) arrived with the US Navy wings. Service Bulletin 544, issued 24 May 1944, directed field units to cut off the American-style wing tips and install the new, squared "short short" tips. I assume some of this work was completed by Andover Kent, but the record there is a bit hazy. Eventually, Briggs began delivering wings with the short tips, which appeared on Corsair IIIs JS519, JS543 thru JS888, and JT963 thru JT972, as well as all Corsair IIs. The same SB 544 directed field units to remove the short wing tips and replace them with the "short short" wing tips. If you've got a raised cockpit Corsair in Brit camouflage with short tips, it's an unmodified II or III; if it has US Navy tips, its an unmodified III, if it has short short, squared tips, it's a modified II or III. If it's configured with twin pylons beneath the fuselage, it is a later II (F4U-1D) - Brewster never made any F3A-1Ds. It appears all of Goodyear's Corsair IVs were delivered with the short short tips, but those aircraft are easily distinguished by the Glossy Sea Blue camouflage scheme. Cheers, Dana (I'll have drawings of the short and short short tips in the second of my two Corsair books, hopefully out by Christmas.) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iang Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) Dana, I'm looking forward to your Corsair books. Some FAA Corsair III seem to have been delivered in a finish similar to the USN tri-colour scheme? Here's an Air Ministry photo of JS491, which shows this to good effect. A quick look through my photos shows JS479 in the same scheme, but JS882 in a bold FAA disruptive scheme. Mark referred to JS675, which I have a photo of marked as lVll, taking off from an RN escort carrier and this is in a very low contrast scheme similar to Mk IIs. The differences between JS882 and JS675 may just be film type, but perhaps earlier JSxxx Corsairs were differently finished? I'd be interested in your views. I can send you these photos if you need them. Ian Edited October 28, 2014 by iang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Bell Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) Hi Ian, Nice image - I'd completely forgotten that this came up long ago. At the time, I'd assumed that one or two Navy Corsairs had been diverted to the UK for evaluation, but clearly that's not the case. Nearly all the Brewster records are missing from the Archives - it seems the legal issues from the F3A contract cancellation meant that the Navy's lawyers had to pull all the files. Brewster Corsairs were fine, but the company was very slow to produce aircraft, and even slower to effect line changes. Frustrated that Brewster hadn't delivered a single British Corsair, on 7 January 1944 the US Navy ordered Brewster to switch completely to Corsair III production beginning with aircraft 175 (BuNo 04689, JS-469). I wonder if the sudden change meant that Brewster was forced to divert aircraft being built for the US Navy to the FAA? Your serials covered the 11th (JS479) and 23rd (JS491) Brewster Corsairs built for the UK - possibly only the first diverted aircraft wore the US Navy scheme before Brewster could switch to the FAA scheme. I wish I could find the Navy's missing Brewster records - you've piqued my interest, and now I'd love to learn the backstory to this camouflage & markings anomaly. Cheers, Dana Edited October 28, 2014 by Dana Bell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennings Heilig Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Brewster machines were painted in the Tri-colour scheme and most were NOT used operationally apparently bad quality control kept most of them out of combat. Guess again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Proulx Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Dana and others... Thanks for taking the time to assist me with my question. I am finding that there appears to be lots of controversy about many aspects of the FAA Corsair! Looks like lots yet to learn. Would you guys suggest any "must have" reference books? Mark Proulx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Bell Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Hi Mark, There are a number of great Corsair books out there - I've got a soft spot for the MDF/SAM book by Joe Hegedus and Rafe Morrissey. Tonight I'm closing the last two pages of my own Bridcage book -- it should go to the printers on Monday next. About a month later, we should be done with the book on raised cockpit -1s -- with any luck, both will be available this year. I've turned up a pile of new technical details to keep modelers and illustrators busy for a while... Cheers, Dana (First day on the site and I'm already hawking my books!!!) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Dana and others... Thanks for taking the time to assist me with my question. I am finding that there appears to be lots of controversy about many aspects of the FAA Corsair! Looks like lots yet to learn. Would you guys suggest any "must have" reference books? Mark Proulx Mark, I have lots of FAA images and over 70 Corsair books. Are you at home this week? I may take Friday off so I will have a long weekend. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Here is a link to JS479 http://s297.photobucket.com/user/DCRanger_photos/media/JS4792.jpg.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrp Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 The only book dedicated to FAA Corsairs is "Corsair KD431 The Time Capsule Fighter " by Dave Morris. Dave is Curator of aircraft at the FAA Museum at Yeovilton. He has done extensive research on this particular airframe and provides a good overview of FAA Corsairs. I assume Dana is referring to the British aircraft modification center, which was set up by Blackburn Aircraft at Rosevelt Field NY. This facility was set up in early 1943 to modify US built aircraft prior to them being shipped to the UK or Far East. A number of modifications were done on the Corsairs at this time, including clipping the wing tips I had always assumed that there were a least 3 types of clipped wing on FAA Corsairs. Glad to hear this confirmed by a prominent researcher/ author .it would be interesting to see the complete list of modifications done to FAA Cosairs that passed through Rosevelt Field. Mark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookenbacher Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 with any luck, both will be available this year Dana Bell is here! (Sorry I got a little excited there - I've been reading your books since childhood.) Also, thanks for the heads up on the Dave Morris book Mark. It seems a bit thin on the ground now, do you happen to know a good source for more copies? JD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Eisenman Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Brewster machines were painted in the Tri-colour scheme and most were NOT used operationally apparently bad quality control kept most of them out of combat. Some that slipped through. On my HD. Source I know not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) An observation - none of those photos of mk IIIs seem to have the small intake on the fuselage sides that was fitted to most Corsair IIs and IVs. And anyone any ideas on the circular 'porthole' on JS479? I seem to recall David Morris' book mentioned that KD431 had Brewster built tailplanes that had originally been finished in Temperate Sea Scheme (or equivalent) colours. and Three wing tips types ahhhhhh!! Edited October 29, 2014 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Eisenman Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) and Three wing tips types ahhhhhh!! Then there were those Birdcage Corsair Is at Brunswick ME training facility that had their wings switched out (replacement due to damage?) to "cut-tips". As to JS479, what are those rivets around the canopy frame? [/url] Edited October 29, 2014 by Steven Eisenman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Bell Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Hi Dave and Dad, I don't know about thecanopy rivets - perhaps snaps for a canvas cover? Really no idea though. The two portholes aree the intakes for the cockpit carbon monoxide flushing system; the reversed scoop below and aft of the intakes is the CO exhaust. Cheers, Dana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby57 Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) The two portholes aree the intakes for the cockpit carbon monoxide flushing system; the reversed scoop below and aft of the intakes is the CO exhaust. Thanks Dana, trying to remember if that was what the two air scoops either side of the fuselage I mentioned earlier were for - they were in roughly the same place. Regarding the 'rivets' round the canopy, they could just be 'chop here' marks as shown on KD431 Did all Brewster built aircraft have the paddle bladed prop? I have a photo on my HD which is labelled as a mk III, but it has the early narrow prop (and is in a contrasty TSS scheme) - I suspect it's an early mk II Edited October 29, 2014 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iang Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure that the 'portholes' are related to the fuselage side air scoops. They are in the same position, but early JSxxx FAA Corsairs don't appear to have the air scoops fitted. Even later ones don't always have them. JS675 doesn't have scoops, but in some photos of '8N' that Steven posted, which I believe are of JS785, they are do seem to be visible. Jennings would be able to confirm this. Relatively few Corsair III made it to front-line service. I don't know how many were on Victorious with BEIF, but there can't have been many as I have the majority of serials of Victorious' squadrons at the end of 1944 and they are all Mk Il (with the exception of JS785). Illustrious received a small number at this time (four from memory) and I have the serials from the Admiralty records. In total I reckon an upper-bound might be eight or so on the fleet carriers at one time or another at the end of 1944 - probably fewer. The only one of these that there seems to be a photographic record of is JS785 from Victorious that Fundekals have found and this one seems to have the scoops fitted. While we are on air scoops, Mk IIs don't always seem to have the ventral scoop on the bottom of the fuselage. I have a photo of an upturned BIEF Corsair on Illustrious without a ventral air scoop (unless, of course it is actually one of the few Mk llls on Illustrious!), while all Mk lVs with the BPF seem to have both the side and ventral scoops. Any thoughts? Edited October 30, 2014 by iang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 That suggests the side scoops were a modification based on service experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Bell Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Evening, Gents, I'm still trying to wrap the last two pages of the first book (which is about the Birdcage versions of the -1s). I've got a ton of material on the CO removal systems, including closeup photos showing the scoops directly over those holes in the fuselage. The carbon monoxode problem took some time to understand, so the vents and scoops weren't added right away. When I can start working on the second book (raised cockpit versions of the -1), I'm pretty sure I'll be able to nail down exactly when the scoops were added. BTW, I don't remember seeing any notes on the side vents being installed without the scoop -- but I haven't really spent any quality time sorting the many conflicting documents. I have normally avoided writing about exported aircraft in this series, simplt because I've not felt the US Archives provided enough information to present an accurate story. Fortunately, the Corsair files are stuffed with explanations about Corsairs for the FAA and the RNZAF. While I can't answer every question (I'm still wrestling with the radio installations), I think I've got enough to do the Brit and Kiwi Corsairs justice. I just haven't had the time to smooth it all out yet... As for service histories of the various models, the much-maligned Brewster aircraft were as good as any others, but there weren't very many of them. Only 430 of the 735 F3As became Corsair IIIs. Since each manufacturer used slightly different detail components, the Brewsters may have been concentrated where supply lines were less likely to cross. Cheers, Dana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 So looking forward to your book Dana. I just received in the mail, Kagero's Volume II (#56) on the Corsair. It looks a lot like there other Coraair books (#26 & #52). No pictures I haven't seen before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) And anyone any ideas on the circular 'porthole' on JS479?Fairly sure that is the CO system before the scoops were added. I am thinking this may have been one of the test prototypes for the system. Edited October 31, 2014 by Scooby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 As to JS479, what are those rivets around the canopy frame? [/url] They are not rivets, they are yellow cut lines for firefighters to chop the canopy off if it were jammed. This detail is well documented in the KD431 book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I think I remember reading in the KD431 book that when the Brewster production line was closed down there were quite a lot of spare parts such as wings, tailplanes etc and hese were faRmed out to other manufacturers which is how a Mk.III tailplane ended up on a Mk.IV. Speaking of the book,.....the Fleet Air Arm Museum gift shop at Yeovilton will probably have copies? They do mail order. Cheers Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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