neilh Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I've committed to build a white ( or maybe white over sky - that's another decision to make) Sea Hurricane with D Day stripes for our club display at Scale Modelworld this November. After a false start using the wrong Italeri kit ( Thanks Troy for sorting me out on that one) I have now grafted the hook section from the Italeri Mk I on to the fuselage of the Italeri Mk IIc. I'm close to the painting stage now but seeing as I had already applied some of the decals before I realized I was building the wrong Mark, I have to source some from spares or our club decal bank. My question is this though. Most of the profiles, decal sheets and kits showing " Niki/ Nicki only show the EDSG stripes on the fuselage and no red codes. There is another photo often mentioned, but not yet found by me of another Sea Hurrican from the same Squadron marked "7-O" crashed on deck, which apparently has stripes on the wings, so if I was to model this one as I can probably source 7 and O, were there stripes on the rear fuselage as per "Niki" and on top and underside of the wings as per usual D Day stripes? If they were on the fuselage, were the code letters still visible? It seems a real puzzle that "Niki" had just fuselage stripes and no codes, when most striped aircraft had the upper wing and upper fuselage stripes removed after D Day. The other question I have is that from previous threads it seems the spinner in the Italeri kit is not very good ( quote " vile") . Anyone know if any of the 3 Quickboost spinners available are ant better? Any help is much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Hi Neil Right, D-Day stripes were progressively removed, first from the uppers, then from under the wings, and under fuselage were retained for a long time. Variation could and did occur. [Full rear fuselage stripes were reintroduced in the 2nd TAF late in 1944 as recocgnition measure BTW.] The stripes should be black, not EDSG. This looks to be the right one for a IIC, long rotol Bullet http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/QB48446 But hard to tell from the photo. Having now got the Italeri IIC, the spinner is oversized and mishaped. left to right Ark, Hasegawa. Italeri The best match to the Bentley plans is the Hasegawa. Note the Italeri is too big at the base, too long, but get the curve wrong and is too narrow at the tip. And the blade openings It also has a line of false rivets. How they get it this wrong..... Freightdog do a Hurricane rocket set for the Italeri kit, and that has a compromise spinner, compromise in as much as it fits the Italeri back plate [too big] but is a corrected shape. EDIT - looking at this build,http://forum.ipmsireland.com/topic/8356356/1/ and then more carefully at the Italeri nose vs Bentley and Hasegawa, the Italeri Engine front is just too big, by about 1.5mm, making the spinner back plate too big, and so making it more complex to fix. Boy, is the italeri kit depressing. here's the real thing, not even the Hase kit get it quite right... EDIT More on 835 Sq Hurricanes http://web.archive.org/web/20030202224021/http:/www.navismagazine.com/demo/nicki/story_of_nicki.htm http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3774-sea-hurricane-nicki/ Most of the profiles, decal sheets and kits showing " Niki/ Nicki only show the EDSG stripes on the fuselage and no red codes. But not actual photos! Misinformation has an amzing ability to get copied about until in becomes 'fact' Here's some photos from the above 7-O [i think] 7-N also note NF672 is called “Nicki”. My records indicate that 7N was the identifier of NF691. NF672 was labeled 7K and was the aircraft I was flying when I shot down a Junkers 290 in March of 1944.” the famous photo But, looking at the photo of 7-O and 7-N, there looks to be very little difference in tone between the white uppers and the underside, so they may well be overall white, and the above shot? a more extensive repaint of white when the upper stripes were removed? Or just do one of these pre-D-Day and not worry about the stripes? Right, I need more coffee and to think on this more.... T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Hi Curiosity is getting me, and the search for knowledge as always ... I always thought the carrier stripe line was yellow, yet it appears to be a very similar colour to the sea hurricanes. Any thoughts, is the interpretation of white sea hurricanes just from these photos ? or is there written orders ? If it is just from photos, if the carrier line is yellow, then the photo colours are 'distorted ' could the sea hurricanes even be all over sky or light grey ? Or the white/sky refered to in the first post. I must remember that 'curiosity killed the cat' :-) Cheers Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Hi Curiosity is getting me, and the search for knowledge as always ... I always thought the carrier stripe line was yellow, yet it appears to be a very similar colour to the sea hurricanes. Any thoughts, is the interpretation of white sea hurricanes just from these photos ? or is there written orders ? If it is just from photos, if the carrier line is yellow, then the photo colours are 'distorted ' could the sea hurricanes even be all over sky or light grey ? Or the white/sky refered to in the first post. I must remember that 'curiosity killed the cat' :-) Cheers Jerry Jerry i don't know, but looking at this, Taken on Ortho film, so the yellow ring appears black, I'd say the deck marking is white. But, we need a proper FAA authority for more on this. Note, in the linked article on 'Nicki' Even though camouflage was standardized under Admiralty rules, the suggestion of the Commander Flying, Edgar Bibby, DSO, that the Hurricanes be painted off-white met with universal approval amongst the fighter pilots. The Captain of Nairana, Captain Taylor, agreed with the argument that white, as opposed to regulation gray and blue, would hide the planes against the white of the clouds in the Atlantic but thought that Admiralty should be consulted and a formal request for the change should be made. Bibby, following the courage of his convictions, didn’t wait. One day the Hurricanes were gray and blue, the next day they were white: “…and their subsequent successes undoubtedly owed much to their camouflage, for on more than one occasion they were able to close right in on their target without being seen”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilh Posted September 20, 2014 Author Share Posted September 20, 2014 Thanks for the advice re the spinner. The Italeri kits are truly awful to build. This is now a "duty" build and not much fun at all. Why not do one pre D Day - problem with that is that the club table theme is going to be covering the period from D Day to Paris , and so any aircraft on it should have some sort of stripes. I guess I could just pick a code like "7-O" because there is no record of that one crashing pre D Day and then add upper and lower wing stripes, and the full fuselage stripes , making out the code letters as per the Typhoon I built recently for the same theme display. Given there seem to be only photos showing underwing stripes and the order were to apply them as a complete set to begin with, its a reasonable assumption that this interpretation might be correct. I guess the use of EDSG for the stripes is also a rumour that has become a fact then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 At what date was the overpainting with white? Did the aircraft ever carry full DDay stripes AND White uppersurfaces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 At what date was the overpainting with white? Did the aircraft ever carry full DDay stripes AND White uppersurfaces? from the lnked articles here - http://web.archive.org/web/20030202224021/http:/www.navismagazine.com/demo/nicki/story_of_nicki.htm I get the impression the white overall was applied in early 1944. confirmed by this NOTE According to Lt.Commander Allen Burgham: “NF 700 was the aircraft whose back I broke by hitting the rundown with the tail wheel on March 2, 1944. (SEE PHOTO BELOW) So overall white by beginning of March 1944. No info on where HMS Nairana was around D-Day though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 hi Hms nairana appears to be on the Clyde 3rd to 12th june 44 then sails to gib. http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-05CVE-Nairana.htm Cheers Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Thanks for the advice re the spinner. The Italeri kits are truly awful to build. This is now a "duty" build and not much fun at all. Why not do one pre D Day - problem with that is that the club table theme is going to be covering the period from D Day to Paris , and so any aircraft on it should have some sort of stripes. I guess I could just pick a code like "7-O" because there is no record of that one crashing pre D Day and then add upper and lower wing stripes, and the full fuselage stripes , making out the code letters as per the Typhoon I built recently for the same theme display. Given there seem to be only photos showing underwing stripes and the order were to apply them as a complete set to begin with, its a reasonable assumption that this interpretation might be correct. I guess the use of EDSG for the stripes is also a rumour that has become a fact then? Jerry has linked that HMS Nairana was at Clyde 3rd-12th June, so the Hurricanes would have got full AEAF stripes then. If 7-N /NF691 was still flying at D-Day, I'd pick this and do it with full stripes, and if you wish print up the gist of this discussion as the reasoning. The EDSG stripes i think is from the Aeromaster decals. As Hurricane with D-day stripes are not a common thing...I did a search. http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53752 Hawker Hurricane Mark IIC Air Despatch Letter Service) returns to England with the Mail. Hurricane Mark IIC LF380FI-D of No 83 Operational Training Unit on the ground at Peplow Shropshire Finally, here - http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/ESCORT/Galleries/STRIKER_Gllery_2.htm has some sea Hurricanes around D-Day without stripes if dates are correct, and Wildcat's listed as having full set in october? Note site has 'right click' disabled, there is a way round this....can't remember at the mo this is not too helpful. http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-05CVE-Striker.htm PS one final thought, is there are proof or precedent for the sq codes being red on the 835 sq planes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilh Posted September 22, 2014 Author Share Posted September 22, 2014 Hi Troy, not aware of any firm evidence that the codes were red. Red seems to have been a common colour for RNAS aircraft ( Fulmar and Spitfire examples come to mind). They could be black but looking ta the photo of NH700, the "7" looks too light to be black, and does seem to match the red centre of the roundel. Interpreting B & W photos is fraught with danger but I do think they are too light to be black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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