Pocher Alfa Romeo Spider

[Codger]

Very keen to follow your progress on this. These (heating, bending) are skills I don't think I have. Never tried it on large parts such as these. I'm OK with cutting, joining and filling.

Your plan sounds good; hope you get the desired results.

[Jamme]

Fantastic progress and build.

Congrats,

Jamme

[roymattblack]

Whilst awaiting the new ‘nose’ (the car – not me…) I decided to tackle the oddly placed tread plates and wing (fender) angles.

If built ‘OOB’, the tread plates look about 3mm-4mm too low down below the car doors, and the wings don’t clear the wheels sufficiently, or with a nice smooth profile. This is all subjective of course, and is only noticeable if you look at pictures of the real cars.
However, I thought I’d try to rectify it a bit.

First off, I heated the ‘bends’ at the ends of the tread plates and bent the wings down by about 5mm.
This effectively meant the tread plates now need to be about 3mm-4mm higher up on the body sides, for the wings to clear the wheels. Just the ticket.

However, by bending the wings down, it also means the fixing points on each end are further apart, and no longer line up with the chassis mounts.

That meant heating the curved wings themselves (fronts only) and putting a greater curve into them, without letting the outer edges bend down, over the wheels.

After a bit of juggling and careful work – I burnt my fingers a good few times – I ended up with the driver’s side footplate/wings fitting much more how I wanted them.
Most noticeable was the profile and clearance over the front wheel.
Compared to the un-altered (as yet) other side there’s a marked difference.

New side fixing points had to be drilled and screwed, but so far – looking good.

Passenger side next…

Both sides sorted, and MUCH better looking although if you haven’t seen the model unchanged, you won’t see any difference.

One thing that has emerged from the trial fitting of bodywork though, is that the rear shock absorbers don’t fit in any way under the wings without being pushed out at a stupid angle.
The rear shocks will need dismantling, the mounts altering and the fitting bracket re-shaping to move them further out from the chassis frames, and the insides of the wings.

All part of the ‘Pocher experience’ – and as I’ve said before, it’s also what makes these kits such a fun project if you enjoy sorting out problems.
Nothing about these kits is insurmountable as long as you enjoy what you’re doing.

And as our good friend the Codger has said in his build, none of these posts or comments is intended to put people off these kits.
Exactly the opposite.

If you’re even tempted – get a Pocher classic. You’ll tear your hair out, you’ll curse at times, but you’ll love it.

Roy.

1ST PICTURE:

AS IS - OOB:

Tread plate around 10mm from door bottom and front wing close to wheel.

2ND PICTURE:

AFTER THE HAIR DRYER TREATMENT:

Tread plate around 6mm from door bottom and front wing higher, and 'lifted' at the outside, more like the actual cars.

Edited October 16, 2014 by roymattblack

[Codger]

Excellent! Most noticeable is the the radiator top is as low or lower than the fender top-very sexy. The whole car got lowered into itself making it look smaller like the 1:1.

Can't believe you did that holding a heat gun with one hand. I'd wind-up with taffy stuck to my hands!

[noeyedears]

i feel your pain on shrinking parts. im doing an accurate armour resin model, its an old one, ten years, and the lower hull just doesnt fit the upper hull anymore. i had to cut the front off and put in 1mm shim, god knows how ill fill the gaps around the sides. small stuff compared to your problems, i know.

ive seen a few pocher kit on fleabay recently, including a rather spiffing tractor unit (ie lorry cab) but the price!! some kits are on for near a grand!!

[roymattblack]

.......... I've seen a few pocher kit on fleabay recently, including a rather spiffing tractor unit (ie lorry cab) but the price!! some kits are on for near a grand!!

Yes, some are mega-bucks, but the other thing to remember is that every day, there are less and less of these kits out there.

I'm not suggesting it's good to pay a grand (or more) on a kit, but there is no doubt that in years to come, people will say 'I can remember seeing one of those on ebay - it was only £1,000'.......

[roymattblack]

Not a great deal of ‘visible’ work here as I’ve spent an age getting various body panels to fit and line up. As previously mentioned the Alfa’s are known to be the worst of the Pocher kits for bodywork.

This kit - like other Pochers - has the body parts moulded in the 'correct' colours so you don't have to paint it.

Mind you, I can't imagine anyone buying one of these somewhat expensive kits, and NOT painting it. Having said that, there was recently a built Rolls Phantom for sale on Ebay as 'professionally built'....

All the body was unpainted plastic colour, even the grey plastic wings that were supposed to be polished metal.

Mine is of course being painted.

Test fitting all the body parts first.

With the main tub fixed to the body – new mounting holes had to be drilled as they are quite a way out on the kit – the outer running boards and wings (fenders) were likewise fitted with new mountings, extra mountings, and screws.
With these parts fitted it was time to test fit the radiator shroud. (The nose)
Not a hope.

The fronts of the wings have a sweeping panel that goes in front of the nose and as supplied, these parts were far too high up, preventing the nose sitting down on the chassis, and also too far back and pressing hard against the radiator, meaning the nose actually had nowhere to go anyway.
These parts were trimmed to shape accordingly and after that, the nose fitted nice and tight in the correct place.

Next was the bonnet (hood) to be attended to.
Like the Rolls Royce, this is made up of two top panels and two side panels, all hinged together with steel hinges.
Again like the Rolls, the top panels don’t have enough ‘twist’ in them, meaning that when they sit nice at the windscreen end, the shape doesn’t match at the front.
After a good deal of very careful hot water, hairdryer and twisting, the parts were made to fit.

Then came the side panels.
As supplied, one fits very well and one doesn’t. The passenger side panel has an incorrect slope at the top and is also about 3mm too long. All easily rectified though.

Eventually the hinges were fitted – after a good deal of alteration to the locating points – and then the bonnet tested for fit. Pretty good, and about as good as any others I’ve seen built up but as I keep repeating, the Alfa body is pretty poor in many places so I doubt I could get it much better without risking damage to the parts.

Next came the doors.

These are actually hilarious!
They don’t fit in any direction, being about 3mm too big all round, and also, about 2mm too thick.
A LOT of trimming, filing and sanding was needed on each door to get them to sit well in the body apertures.
The door hinges are a known VERY weak point on the model as they don’t actually fit anywhere, and the fixing points on the doors is miniscule. This will be a case of once built, leave the doors alone.

After even more sanding, filling imperfections, more sanding and three coats of primer, the body parts were further wet sanded with 1200 grit and dried.

I found some nice cream and blue paints I liked in good old Halfords so acquired a rattle can of each.
The nice thing about models of this size is that rattle cans work really well, laying on a good coat of paint which can be nicely flatted down.

Three top coats were added, the last being polished out with micromesh and then allowed to dry for about 4 days in the top of the airing cupboard. (Lovely and warm)

Two coats of 2K were then applied, and the parts left for the next few weeks to harden so the wheels and seats will be attended to in this time.
One of the things I like about these 2K clear coats is that they respond very well to polishing if you’re after that new ‘toffee apple’ shine, but left pretty much as it dries, it has a lovely lustre, but isn’t overly shiny. These old cars were polished, but they never had the gloss of modern paints so I will leave mine as it dries out.

The pictures show the body before, during and after paintwork although the final 'shine' doesn't show too well using flash.....

Roy.

Edited October 21, 2014 by roymattblack

[elderly]

, I can't imagine anyone buying one of these somewhat expensive kits, and NOT painting it]

:embarrassed&ashamedsmilie:

[shood23]

The colours of the body and the wings does go very well against each other and your workmanship is top notch well done

Shaun

[Codger]

A well-written treatise on the flaws and corrections to this classic kit-thanks on behalf of current or future builders of the Spyder Roy. This is copy and paste stuff and thanks for taking the time to elucidate.

You did a lot of sorting in a relatively short time. I know figuring out the next move is always the hard part with these. That would also explain all those dead wine bottles whose corpses are now used as paint stands.

Ironically, I'm just beginning the Rolls coach panels and, though not as bad as the Alfa, no two are alike. Strange vertical sink marks top to bottom on the large doors and cowl and lots of thick flash.

Oh well, that's how Pocher Nuts have fun right??

[foxfriend]

Interesting to see that Codger has pointed out the sink marks on the Rolls doors. On a lot of original cars of this era that I have seen and retrimmed, you saw a lot of this, particularly on doors. The reason for this is because the main frame of the cars was made of Ash wood, then the metal skin was shapped over the frame, and then it was literally nailed to the frame through the metal skin! This type of mark is the shape of some of the wood that you could see in places on the face of the metal skin.

This begs the question, is this a mistake or not by Pocher?

Larry.

[Codger]

Not to detract from Roy's thread but that is fascinating news from Larry.

It begs the question; do you leave stuff like this and present your model this way for accuracy or correct it to make flawless coachwork?

[foxfriend]

Once again Roy, this is looking stunning. The colours are absolutely perfect, and the blue carpet looks loads better. Like the look of the MkII Jag on the shelf as well. Is it the Tamiya one?

[noeyedears]

Not to detract from Roy's thread but that is fascinating news from Larry.

It begs the question; do you leave stuff like this and present your model this way for accuracy or correct it to make flawless coachwork?

Id have to say correct it. To have a blemish like that, even if it was( very doubtfully) designed in, would spoil it.

[roymattblack]

As our Mr C points out in his thread too.....

These Pocher kits need 'tweaking' to get them right.

........ ---- But that's all part of the FUN....

Roy.

[roymattblack]

Whilst waiting for the paint to harden on the bodywork I’ve gone back to the seats.

My leather skin arrived – I chose Cobalt blue – and as usual, the skin is superb – and HUGE!
I've posted a pic of the skin laying on the floor with a DVD box next to it to give an idea of size.
I actually need about 1/6 of the skin.....

I made a start on the seats in a similar way to our co-Pocherbuilder 'Foxfriend’ who very kindly sent me detailed drawings and explanations of how he made his Rolls Royce seats from Balsa wood covered in leather.
The difference here though is that the Alfa seats have far more curves and ‘shapes’ than the Rolls seats and after a few attempts at carving and sanding the Balsa parts, I decided to go back to using the plastic seats I had already cut up. After all, they are already the correct shape and size.

The leather was cut oversize and each part carefully glued into the seat flutes before moving on to the next part. Great care is needed here as I use Cyano for this job as it bonds so quickly to leather.
It is skin!

The seat part was then turned over, the overlapping leather trimmed and each part was pulled tightly around the edges and glued to the back face of the seat panel.
In this way all the seat parts were eventually covered in blue leather.
Reassembly of the seat could now start.

The seat bases were covered in leather and had a stiff plasticard ‘liner’ made up that protruded 2-3mm above the upper edge. This located neatly inside the actual seat squabs – the bit you sit on – and the whole thing was fixed together using Evo-Stik Serious glue.

The seat backs were then fixed in place using strips of blue leather so that should there be even a tiny gap anywhere, only blue leather will be seen.
The whole seat was clamped together and left to dry, using spare leather as a pad between the clamps and the actual seat leather to prevent any marks.

The exhaust system was assembled next and was fitted to the car. All very straight forward.
I applied light weathering to the exhaust, particularly at the manifold end.
As previously explained, my car is going to be a nicely looked after, but frequently used car.
I’m not trying to make it look ‘old’ like our friend the Codger is doing – brilliantly, I might add – with his Rolls Royce.
My Alfa is going to look how it did in the ‘30’s, but with regular use.

Wheels next - groan - all 6 of them!

Roy.

Edited October 24, 2014 by roymattblack

[shood23]

Roy you should leave the car as it is in the bottom it looks exquisite

Shaun

[Codger]

Shood makes a good point-sinful to cover that all up. I should know; I'm sinning heavily myself.

Beautifully done.

[noeyedears]

super seats! you free to come round and re-cover my three piece?

[vinnie the panda]

I'll be watching this build with interest!

In the meantime here's a totally gratuitous and off topic photo of Philippe Entancelin's

1931 Alfa 8C sharing a pit garage at Donington in 2008, with my rather later one.

I spent the entire day when not out on the circuit, drooling over it.

I have resisted putting up a photo of my guitar.

I used to freelance with a bodyshop restoring Giuila's here in Lincolnshire, lovely cars to work on, as long as you have a sandblaster...lol

[roymattblack]

A couple of lovely cars there - and many thanks all you guys for the nice compliments.
I hope my waffle makes reasonably interesting/useful reading.

Moving on with the model though....

Now the wheels.

One of the first things I did regarding the wheels was to ‘correct’ the shape of the knock-off wheel nuts.

On the kit parts, the ‘ears’ are almost triangular and look nothing like the actual part.
There are correct upgrade parts available to replace the Pocher part, but at around £80 for a set of four I thought I’d have a go at modifying my own.

The first task was to file the ears into a more accurate straight sided shape. Not too difficult but it left me with a few small blisters from clamping the parts tightly with a pair of pliers in one hand, and holding a file in the other.
The picture below shown one wheel nut altered against the remaining three.

Another missing element on the kit parts it the ‘Alfa’ script in the centre, and a circular ring around the word.
Admittedly, the upgrade part has this nicely embossed into the centre but I went the simple route, sourced the logo on the web and printed my own wheel centres on clear decal film. These were then applied to the centre of the knock-offs.

Not perfect, but still far better than the kit supplied parts, and they didn’t cost me £80.
Effectively that’s £80 in the bank for the Pocher Fiat in the future.

Two things going on at once now.

I decided to add the radiator shell, light brackets and grille to the car as I think it might help with the wing (fender) fitting later on if this part is already in place. We shall see.

The miniscule badge needed painting first as it is only plain etched brass as supplied.
A minute brush, bright light and a large glass of plonk were needed but the end result was nice.

The bodywork paint and top coat are nicely dry after hibernating in a box in the airing cupboard for nearly 2 weeks. Time to look at the interior again.

As the seats were butchered to make them look better, they now need fitting back inside the body.
There are no fixing points for this as the seats were a moulded part of the main cockpit and I had to cut them free.
The only solution was to make some suitable mounting points on the body so the seats have somewhere to ‘sit’ and be fixed to.
This was done by cutting out some strips of 2.5mm plasticard and gluing them along the inside edge of the door step, so that the seat bottom has something to sit on.
Then wide plastic strips were cut and glued to the inside faces of the seat bottoms, so that they hung below the seats by around 10mm. These could then be fixed to the plasticard strips inside the door step. Once everything was in place, the seats located nicely back inside the body tub but now looked like the proper separate seats they are supposed to be, instead of part of the body with leather stuck to it, which is how the kit works. The upper seat back roll fitted nice and tight against the body.
Any tiny gaps letting light through were covered on the inside of the body with 10mm wide strips of blue leather over the ‘joins’

I’ve seen umpteen built Spiders and the kit seats never really look convincing, however well they are covered. My seats may not be perfect either but at least they now look like proper seats inside the car.

Next was to cover the dash roll. That’s the bit on the front edge of the body, facing into the cockpit.
There was no way I wanted to get glue on my nice fresh paint so a thin strip of ‘Mammoth’ D/S tape was applied to the body and the newly cut blue leather piece was fixed to it.
The leather was then pulled under the dash and glued down with Cyano.

Done.

Doors and interior trim next.....

Roy.

Edited October 28, 2014 by roymattblack

[Will Vale]

That badge is splendid, I'm glad I'm not the only person who uses alcohol to damp out vibrations of the painting hand

Will

[noeyedears]

nice job on the badge. that sort of thing gives me nightmares with my eyesight.

[Codger]

A great tutorial for future builders Roy-except few have your skills........

[roymattblack]

Many thanks for the kind words.

However.... DISASTER !!!!!

I just checked the doors against the body and the colour doesn't match any longer !!!

When I first painted the parts, the colour match was excellent. All body parts were painted at the same time and in the same way.

A few days later, the 2K was applied. All still matched.

Now, 10 days down the line and the doors are FAR darker than the body !

Heaven only knows why as I've never had this happen with 2K before.

I've tried a bit of polishing but all that has done is make the doors shinier than the body but still just as dark.

The bullet has been bitten and the doors lightly rubbed back and re-primed.

Colour coats tomorrow and then we'll see.

Frustratingly this now holds up further body work.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.....

Roy.