Scottish Independent Air Force/Navy/Army

[Albeback52]

I'm going to start a long term project on this theme. I have a few ideas about how such an air force/navy/army (in the context of its flying assets) would look & the types it might feasibly operate. I'm working on the assumption that the UK government is refusing point blank to sell any equipment to it's newly independent neighbour. Needlless to say, availability of kits will also be a deciding factor. I'm starting from scratch here so, here are my thoughts. ;

Training wing equipped with Pilatus PC-7/Beechcraft T-6 Texan

Helicopter wing equipped with the Eurocopter NH-90 TTH (also employed in Naval version)

VIP Flight - Falcon 900/Bombardier CRJ/Airbus A-319

Transport wing With either C-130J And/or C-27 Spartan

Tanker flight (undecided)

Combat wing with SAAB JAS-39 Gripen

Advanced trainer (undecided)

Army Aviation wing equipped with AH-64 Apache & (as yet unspecified) utility type

I also have one each of the Trumpeter 1/350 Independence and Freedom class Littoral combat ships.These will become the INS Sir John Moore & INS Robert the Bruce (what else!!) . I'm going to paint these in a splinter camouflage pattern similar to the Norwegian Navy Skjold class corvettes.

Anyway, this is purely a fun project so, PLEASE ,PLEASE keep politics firmly OUT of this regardless of your points of view on the subject of independence for Scotland!! I know this is purely speculative but, I have tried to keep the list of types practical. Any alternative suggestions for equipment are very welcome. Now, the major stumbling block will of course be national insignia but, that's my problem. I'm sure something will turn up!

Allan

Edited September 12, 2014 by Albeback52

[Black Knight]

Interesting.

I'd go for a Tucano in the training. As the Tucano is built in Belfast and the Scots have an affinity with N.I.

[tc2324]

For the Tanker role, possibly a couple of Airbus A310 MRTT`s. These could obviously support any other transport option as well.

Think the Tucano suggestion is spot on for the advanced trainer and I`d suggest the Grob Tutor in the Basic trainer role.

Pretty sure this hasn`t helped you at all when it comes to kit availability....?

[Graham Boak]

Fighters will be Typhoons, as part of the split. Ditto Hawks and C-130s. I suspect they'll see no need for tankers, hiring/sharing if needed.

Don't look for anything "new" outside the current RAF as cost would be extravagant. Maybe 10 years down the line or something that is nearing obsolescence anyway.

[Black Knight]

The Scots could start building anew the S.A. Bulldog as an ab initio trainer.

[Paul J]

My thoughts on insignia would be a blue disc with the white St.Andrews cross for wings and fuselage. Fin flash could be the yellow with red Lion saltire. I have been thinking about this for quite a while and thought that maybe retired Jaguars and Harriers(exRAF)could be brought back on line!

[Enzo the Magnificent]

There could be three different camouflage schemes: the Highland scheme, the Lowlands scheme and the Islands scheme. The last one could be a decent maritime scheme.

[Enzo the Magnificent]

There could be three different camouflage schemes: the Highland scheme, the Lowlands scheme and the Islands scheme.

Highland scheme: a splinter pattern of medium and dark greys with random dark green patches.

Lowland scheme: similar to the 80s RAF overall camouflage scheme, but using dark and medium greens.

Islands scheme: a wraparound version of the second world war FAA scheme.

Whaddaya think?

[Black Knight]

There could be three different camouflage schemes: the Highland scheme, the Lowlands scheme and the Islands scheme. The last one could be a decent maritime scheme.

aye, but its hard to find the tartan paint in acrylic these days.

[DAG058]

Really looking forward to this one!

[John]

I think Typhoons would be traded back to BAe and replaced with Gripens.

There will definitely have to be a maritime recce/resource protection component. CASA 235?

I suspect the Hawk 100/200 would also be on inventory.

I'd tend to see a European slant on purchases of helicopters, trainers and transport types.

National markings a blue and white roundel (like WWII RAAF) and a saltire on the fin. The blue would be Pantone 300.

J

[bzn20]

There are 2 VC-10's that won't take much to get them back up and all the spares that aren't on ebay, And Ebay for panels,gauges,PSU's,MCP's and periscopes and sponsored by Dimple Whiskey.

The New Scotland navy have already got the Royal Yacht Britannia renamed NSNS Robbie Burns.

The Tartan is from the old BA tea cloth fin stickers.

2 quad bikes to patrol Hadrians Wall,

1000 pipers to get rid of anyone else.

Anything else is just scare mongering.

Edited September 12, 2014 by bzn20

[SleeperService]

Just a thought but why a separate helicopter wing?

Army wing with Apache, Blackhawk and NH90. Naval NH90 operated by the New Scottish Navy.

That would help Scotland's international relations by getting the Yanks onside early. Blackhawks supplied as rent for US Base transition period.

[JohnT]

My thoughts on insignia would be a blue disc with the white St.Andrews cross for wings and fuselage. Fin flash could be the yellow with red Lion saltire.!

I think that's the obvious starting point but fear an unforeseen problem. That style of disc and cross immediately reminds me of the Spanish National markings during and after the civil war there. Not sure that's a good association. Also the fin flash would depend on the constitutional position of the monarch being a royal standard. Apart from that bout of pedantry on my part a good call out on a whiff though.

Would the pilots helmets and visors be tinted a la Mel in Braveheart though and will the airframe and cockpit be modified to have Kilt suppressor on ejection and the capacity for underwing hard points to carry "irun" (bru) bombs?

[Graham Boak]

Re Gripens for Eurofighter: spending huge sums of money swapping something free for an inferior product? Doesn't sound very Scottish to me! What choice might have been made starting from a blank slate is one thing, but that's not the state of things as they are.

I don't think the Spanish Nationalist connotations would be seen as relevant, quite apart from being the reverse tones. The flag of St Andrew is carried by the Russian Navy, which might be seen as more contemporary a problem. If you're stuck with roundels then blue and white would do, old Aussie style, but a rectangle with cross would work perfectly well.

bzn20: I'll point out that Hadrian's wall is well inside England for much of its path: a better border between Saxon and Celt would be the Antonine Wall but I don't see much real chance of that. However, England should insist on the return of Lothian as a minimum.

[dadgaddad]

The scheme would be a simple one as you would only need one colour. Pure Dead Brilliant White.

Edited September 13, 2014 by dadgaddad

[Enzo the Magnificent]

but a rectangle with cross would work perfectly well.

But people might think the aircraft belongs to 151 Sqn.

[Tiger331]

Fighters will be Typhoons, as part of the split. Ditto Hawks and C-130s. I suspect they'll see no need for tankers, hiring/sharing if needed.

Don't look for anything "new" outside the current RAF as cost would be extravagant. Maybe 10 years down the line or something that is nearing obsolescence anyway.

Given an outline annual defense budget of only £2.5 bn, and what appears to be a lack of 'appetite' to take on extremely costly weapons systems, I suspect Typhoon will be out of the equation….the support costs for Typhoon are enormous and the necessity to maintain a robust maritime presence and a properly equipped Army, albeit without armour, will preclude anything more than a token force of advanced combat aircraft; the laws of diminishing returns come into play which is why the RNZAF very reluctantly gave up their combat aircraft some time ago.

Agree the rest……Gripen sometime in the future once the funding is available could be a distinct possibility.

The current Czech Air Force ORBAT is probably the one closest to that which Scotland could field.

[Enzo the Magnificent]

Given an outline annual defense budget of only £2.5 bn, and what appears to be a lack of 'appetite' to take on extremely costly weapons systems, I suspect Typhoon will be out of the equation

All the indications are that an independent Scottish government would not be very interested in projecting global power. The naval forces would probably be more like the US Coastguard. That would mean there was no real requirement for camouflage on the naval helicopters. Given their major SAR role, camouflage might even be a disadvantage. So could we see some spectacular high visibility schemes on Scottish helicopters?

[Albeback52]

There are 2 VC-10's that won't take much to get them back up and all the spares that aren't on ebay, And Ebay for panels,gauges,PSU's,MCP's and periscopes and sponsored by Dimple Whiskey.

The New Scotland navy have already got the Royal Yacht Britannia renamed NSNS Robbie Burns.

The Tartan is from the old BA tea cloth fin stickers.

2 quad bikes to patrol Hadrians Wall,

1000 pipers to get rid of anyone else.

Anything else is just scare mongering.

I think that's the obvious starting point but fear an unforeseen problem. That style of disc and cross immediately reminds me of the Spanish National markings during and after the civil war there. Not sure that's a good association. Also the fin flash would depend on the constitutional position of the monarch being a royal standard. Apart from that bout of pedantry on my part a good call out on a whiff though.

Would the pilots helmets and visors be tinted a la Mel in Braveheart though and will the airframe and cockpit be modified to have Kilt suppressor on ejection and the capacity for underwing hard points to carry "irun" (bru) bombs?

:lol: Thanks folks. Love it!!

Enzo - Good ideas.

To everyone else who has contributed thus far - my sincere thanks.

ps - Graham, please remember you are dealing with Scots here. We'll SELL Lothian back to you! (minus Edinburgh of course!!)

Allan

[bzn20]

I think they'd follow the Republic of Ireland model. Easy for Salmond......Cut and paste from wikiP then email to head of SMOD

MacAir Force

Main article: Air Corps (Ireland)

Irish Air Corps AgustaWestland AW139 helicopter

The Irish Air Corps is the air component of the Defence Forces. The Air Corps HQ is at Casement (Baldonnel) Aerodrome. The Air Corps is the smallest of the branches of the Defence Forces, with approximately 939 personnel, and its primary roles are defined as:

1. Support of the Army...........................They'll never walk alone.....ARMY! ARMY!
2. Support of the Naval Service.............They'll never swim alone NAVY! NAVY!
3. Aid to the Civil Power

There are two secondary roles:

1. Aid to Civil Community
2. Aid to Government departments

The Air Corps is tasked with the traditional air force role of defending Irish airspace however its capability to do so is severely limited. The Air Corps provide support to the Army and Naval Service, together with non-military air services such as air ambulance, VIP transport, and search and rescue (in support of Coast Guard search and rescue efforts). The Air Corps' helicopters are the only helicopters within the State capable of flying at night in mountain terrain using Night Vision Goggles.

The Air Corps' two CASA CN-235 maritime patrol aircraft^[18] are equipped with detection systems and assist the Naval Service in patrolling Irish territorial waters and EEZ. These aircraft are also used for HALO (High-Altitude, Low-Opening) parachuting by the elite Army Ranger Wing. The Air Corps has six AgustaWestland AW139 utility helicopters capable of being armed with FN MAG machine guns. These advanced helicopters can be flown using Night Vision Goggle and used in support of the ARW, Naval Service and Gardaí operations. Seven Pilatus PC-9 turboprop aircraft equipped with rocket pods and machine guns, two Eurocopter EC135 light utility helicopters, which can be used as sniper platforms by the Army Ranger Wing, are used for training pilots and air ambulance missions. There are also a number of auxiliary aircraft

MacNavy

The Naval Service maintains a complement of about 1,144 personnel, and is tasked with patrolling Irish territorial waters as well as the Irish Conservation Box a large area of sea in which fishing is restricted to preserve numbers. The Naval Service is tasked with enforcing this EU protected area and thus serves the EU as well as Ireland.^[19] The Naval Service, together with the Air Corps and Customs, have intercepted a number of vessels carrying narcotics to and from Ireland.^[20]

The Naval Service has eight offshore patrol vessels which are operated in support of the service's main roles, inflatable seagoing craft, and training vessels. The Naval Service maintains highly trained armed boarding parties that can seize a vessel if necessary, and a special unit of frogmen called the Naval Service Diving Section. While the Naval Service does not have any heavy warships, all of the naval vessels have enough firepower to enforce their policing roles.

The primary role is defined as "National Security", with secondary roles which include:^[19]

1. Fishery Protection and Salmon farms
2. Aid to the Civil Power
3. Drug Interdiction and
4. Maritime Safety
5. Diving Operations
6. Pollution Control
7. Overseas Mission Support
8. Scare mongering

[upnorth]

I hardly see an independent Scottish air force holding onto an air combat ability.

It would probably end up like what's been going on in the Baltic nations. the domestic military has transport, helicopter and some light combat ability and the major air defense is done through a rotation of other NATO nations.

In some cases, it really makes no economic sense for some nations to have a full air combat ability. Slovenia no longer has a fighter force, Hungary has a substantially downsized one and I've heard Slovakia might be heading the same way.

If you look at Scotland geographically, they are really only exposed on the western side. they have a good sized NATO cushion in all other directions. Presuming a free Scotland would join NATO, it would make more sense for them to concentrate their air assets on patrol, transport, SAR and light combat/training roles while having other NATO nation rotate fighters in and out for air defense.

As for equipment; I would imagine a fairly Eurocentric inventory:

Trainer possibilities:

I suspect the Shorts Tucano would be the prime contender; however, should they join NATO, you might just see trainees shipped off to Canada for training on the Beech T-6 and Hawk Mk.155 aircraft under the NATO training system.

As for bringing the SA Bulldog back, I hardly think it's likely. The Zlín Z-242 might be a better option and they might even be able to produce it domestically.

Conversely, NATO or not, you might see them strike a deal for a civilian contractor to carry out the training. That seems to be a popular trend over the last decade or so.

Transport possibilities:

If I was the betting sort, I'd put money on the CASA 295, it can be done up in both transport and patrol variants

For lighter stuff, the Let L-410 Turbolet is still a contender these days with a big support network in place for it

For the VIP end of things; Airbus A319 or A320 for bigger delegations, Bombardier Challenger or RJ series for smaller

For helicopters:

I'd say the Merlin for transport/VIP/SAR work, but I wouldn't rule out the Mil Mi-171 either as a possibility.

I could also see a range of Eurocopter models in place for lighter duties.

Light combat:

The Hawk would probably be the front runner, but I wouldn't rule out the Aero L-39 Albatros (New Generation variant is under development), the Aero L-159 ALCA or the Macchi MB.339 series.

I think under any independent Scotland scenario, groups like the Coast Guard and Customs Service would come to greater importance in territorial protection and would probably work quite closely with the military or dividing some duties on a regional basis.

For example, the military could have SAR responsibilities on the mainland and points south while the Coast Guard could have SAR jurisdiction out on the islands and in the north.

Between a military, Coast Gurad and Customs Service; an independent Scotland might be able to land themselves a sweet deal on a fleet of CASA 295 MPA variants and possibly create a common pool of them to share responsibilities between the three services.

[heloman1]

Scottish Av, Single Pioneers re-engineered in carbon Fibre as drones, SA Bulldogs aircrew training/COIN, SA Twin Pioneers as transport/Ground attack, with Alex Salmond not-so-smart bombs under the wings...

Colin

[GordonD]

Speaking of the SA Bulldog, what about this scheme? The aircraft was owned by the 15th Duke of Hamilton, who died in 2010 - he used to fly it at airshows including the one at East Fortune.

[robvulcan]

I wonder how long it will be before this topic gets locked.

Good look though as I know your likely serious about this a d your Whifs are always cool.

How about alphajet for the advanced trainer

Cheers Rob