Tornado GR1A/4A fuel tank options

[SleeperService]

During the First Gulf War the GR1As flew with the Hindenbergers under each wing and the smaller tanks under the fuselage IIRC?

Was this fit used subsequently by grey/green Tonkas at all and for a bonus point Would the IFR be fitted?

Finally would the other pylons outer wing and/or center line be loaded as well.

This has been prompted by my getting an Airfix GR4 to cannibalize for a What If? Build and a desire to do something different with the new Revell kit.

[Jabba]

The Tornado GR1As did fly with 4 tanks, but from the pictures that I can find they were all of the smaller variety. I have found pictures of post war GR1As carrying 3 or 4 tanks including one from 13 Sqn with white camo. Yes they do have the IFR fitted.

[Richard E]

My memory may be failing but I think there was a 13 Squadron Tornado GR Mk1A in the static at Fairford in 1993 (the year the MiG29s crashed) fitted with two 2,200 litre and two 1,500 litre drop tanks. When I asked the crew how much runway they needed to take off, their answer was "all of it".

Got it - helpful link respecting Airliners.net's copyright rules:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Panavia-Tornado-GR1A/0340620/&sid=85a2a296527f4c46f5d13ce6b0f948cc

Edited September 11, 2014 by Richard E

[SleeperService]

Thanks to both of you.

That's me set up now and another squadron to cross off the to-do list.

Cheers

[spike7451]

Hindenberger (or Big Jugs as we in the RAF called them) were NOT carried by the GR1 before the first gulf war & the GR1A/GR4A can't carry the centerline pylon as it interfears with the linescan pod fitted under the jet.(NEVER hear them called Hindenberger in my time on Tornado's as an armourer)

IFR probes were fitted to most RAFG jets as far as I can recall & the outer pylons can only carry BOZ 107 pod on the right outer pylon & Skyshadow on left outer resectivly,as the release units fitted to those stations are only a light duty type.

[Jabba]

There are some good pictures of Gulf War Tornado GR1As on dstorm.eu.

[feifeitim]

The BOZ 107 was often carried on both outer pylons as the Skyshadow pods were not always available. Having the outboard pylons loaded improved the wing loading and increased the G limits permitted.

In the 10 years I flew the Tornado, I never flew with a mix of 2250l and 1500l tanks. It was either the 2250l or 2 or 3 1500l tanks with the third 1500l tank carried on the right shoulder pylon.

[spike7451]

The BOZ 107 was often carried on both outer pylons as the Skyshadow pods were not always available. Having the outboard pylons loaded improved the wing loading and increased the G limits permitted.

In the 10 years I flew the Tornado, I never flew with a mix of 2250l and 1500l tanks. It was either the 2250l or 2 or 3 1500l tanks with the third 1500l tank carried on the right shoulder pylon.

To add a lot of the BOZ-107's that were carried on the left (port) outer were dummy pods,which were recognizable as the flare cartridge opening at the back was blanked over & the was a blue band around the front of the pod (blue refers to drill,inert or practice stores.

[Richard E]

More knowledgeable contributors can probably confirm this theory, I suspect that this was not a typical peace time fit. I have seen some references to it only being used during the first Gulf War for urgent missions where no tanker support was available and the smaller 1,500 litre tanks were dropped once they had been exhausted.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Richard E

[spike7451]

More knowledgeable contributors can probably confirm this theory, I suspect that this was not a typical peace time fit. I have seen some references to it only being used during the first Gulf War for urgent missions where no tanker support was available and the smaller 1,500 litre tanks were dropped once they had been exhausted.

IIRC,we did practice a 3 tank fit with a WE-177 on the port shoulder pylon,guess the jet would need as much fuel as possible for the fast dash to the target & the way back,but it was the smaller drops we fitted,I think the only time they were fitted was on long detatchemnts for red flag/maple flag ect.

[SleeperService]

So Richard E's linked piccie apart.... Am I right in thinking that;

The two Big Jug plus 2 Little Jugs is a rare fit and only during and after GW One

Used for long distance deployments with IFR fitted, I assume spike is referring to Trans Atlantic Crossings

Mainly used by RAFG

Tanks carried on fuselage shoulder pylons, no centre line pylon fitted to GR.1A/4A

Outer pylon BOZ (right wing) and Sky Shadow (left wing) or two BOZ (left wing one a dummy)

Sorry if I seem a bit thick but I'm mainly an armour model maker and am spreading my wings so to speak. Thank You All so much for the input so far!

[Jabba]

I have had a look through all my books on the Gulf conflict. In them it show both GR1 and GR1As that are fitted with the big fuel tanks, but only these and no other fuel tanks. The GR1s have also got weapons fitted but the GR1As have nothing under the fuselage. There are pictures of GR1As that have fuel tanks under the wings and under the fuselage, but these are all of the smaller variety. I am not sure if there are 1 or 2 tanks fitted under the fuselage as I cannot see from the picture. There are also pictures of GR1s with 3 or 4 fuel tanks fitted again all of the smaller type and these were taken as the aircraft flew out to and back from the region. I cannot find any pictures of either GR1 or GR1A aircraft fitted with the big tanks and the small tanks at the same time, and that is also after looking through my books on Tornados. Hope this is of some help.

[Plumber]

I was at Dhahran with 31 Sqdn during GW1. A few weeks after we arrived four 13 Sdqn jets pitched up and started flying. While we were flying with 2250's (big tanks) the recce jets ALWAYS flew with 4x1500's,never 2250's. They must have been AAR'ed on-route becuase they were usually away for 6+ hours while ' Scud- Hunting'. Barring u/s jets all 4 launched every night. When asked by us ground-crew where they were going, all we got told by the aircrew was 'bandit country'.

Happy days

Scoots

[SleeperService]

Well, Thank You for checking that for me Jabba my Tornado book collection is exactly zero (but I have plenty on the Sherman!)

A friend who I've been asking pertinent questions of sent me THIS LINK from the II (AC) Association page which shows the ultra-rare fit. With a great mix of finishes. He thought they carried 4 off small tanks as well so Thanks for the confirmation Scoots.

With all the help from you lovely people I'll be getting another Revell Tonka at the Sutton Coldfield show tomorrow. These Flying Machines do grow on you don't they??

BM apart is there a good reference book on the beast?

Edited September 13, 2014 by SleeperService

[Jabba]

There was one book/magazine that I did not look in last night and found just after I posted my last. This was the RAF yearbook from 1991, which was a Gulf War special, and in this it has a section on the GR1As. Now in this it says that for the very first and some other missions the aircraft were fitted with the big tanks under the wings and the smaller tanks under the fuselage. The reason why this was so is because unlike the GR1s which had about 24hr notice of a mission the GR1As might get 3 to 4 hrs of a mission and in this time they were not able to arrange in flight re-fuelling. There are however no pictures of GR1As in this publication with this tank configuration, but it does show a couple of GR1s with this configuration arriving at RAF Bruggen after they flew back direct from the Gulf region.

[scotthldr]

As said the Big Jugs weren't carried until after Desert Storm but they did carry 3 x 1500ltr tanks one under each wing and the third on the Starboard shoulder pylon. If I remember correctly wasn't the Big Jug fit initially for the GR1B, but eventually rolled out fleet wide?

[SleeperService]

Your dedication to my cause is immense and deeply appreciated. I've just bagged a copy on the auction site we all know.

I gather that the Big Jug was a fighter tank first then used by the GR versions during and after GW1.

[Richard E]

A very interesting thread.

The larger 2,200 litre drop tanks were originally used by the Tornado F Mk.3 but were used operationally by the Tornado GR Mk.1 force during and the first Gulf War, however I think they were tested by the SAOEU (Strike Aircraft Operational Evaluation Unit) in the late eighties.

There was one book/magazine that I did not look in last night and found just after I posted my last. This was the RAF yearbook from 1991, which was a Gulf War special, and in this it has a section on the GR1As. Now in this it says that for the very first and some other missions the aircraft were fitted with the big tanks under the wings and the smaller tanks under the fuselage. The reason why this was so is because unlike the GR1s which had about 24hr notice of a mission the GR1As might get 3 to 4 hrs of a mission and in this time they were not able to arrange in flight re-fuelling. There are however no pictures of GR1As in this publication with this tank configuration, but it does show a couple of GR1s with this configuration arriving at RAF Bruggen after they flew back direct from the Gulf region.

That's what I checked as well - the article does contain a number of pictures of the GR Mk.1As fitted with four 1,500 litre tanks which appears to have been the normal operational fit; it also looks like this may have been used as a ferry fit when the Mk.1 Tornados deploying to and from the Gulf.

I've also found quite a few pictures of Tornado F Mk.3s carrying two of the smaller 1,500 litre tanks.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Richard E

[feifeitim]

I always preferred flying with the 1500l tanks and outboard stores as the G limits were much greater than flying with 2250l tanks. On the GR, the G limits IIRC with 2250l tanks and no outboard stores in 25 wing were just 2.5G with fuel in the tanks to 2.75G without - not particularly useful. I'd have thought that the F3 had somewhat similar limits, perhaps not so useful for a fighter methinks! (Hope this doesn't start a GR vs F3 debate!!!). With outboard stores, the G limits with 2250l tanks were greater, but not much!

Tanks were never fitted to the outboard pylons. Again, IIRC, these were for lighter weight stores. As previously mentioned, I think the picture above is a standard, "look what I can carry" publicity picture.

2250l tanks could not be carried under the fuselage - they were too big. Also the wing sweep was limited to 63 degrees when carrying them on the wings, because at 67 they would interfere with the tailerons.

[Richard E]

I always preferred flying with the 1500l tanks and outboard stores as the G limits were much greater than flying with 2250l tanks. On the GR, the G limits IIRC with 2250l tanks and no outboard stores in 25 wing were just 2.5G with fuel in the tanks to 2.75G without - not particularly useful. I'd have thought that the F3 had somewhat similar limits, perhaps not so useful for a fighter methinks! (Hope this doesn't start a GR vs F3 debate!!!). With outboard stores, the G limits with 2250l tanks were greater, but not much!.

The 2,250 litre tanks were probably designed to give the Tornado F Mk.3 the maximum possible endurance whilst loitering over the North Sea waiting for the hoards od Soviet bombers to appear over the horizon before sending four Skyflash or AIM-120 in their direction then heading back home as quickly as possible.

[spike7451]

For one the size would mean you couldn't load them using a Wendy & they'd be physically impossible to load with the hernai bars.

And Big Jugs are what we call the larger 2250 tanks,I never heard them called 'Hindenberger' in my time in the RAF,so that term looks like it may have been 'invented' by the hobby & stuck.

I always preferred flying with the 1500l tanks and outboard stores as the G limits were much greater than flying with 2250l tanks. On the GR, the G limits IIRC with 2250l tanks and no outboard stores in 25 wing were just 2.5G with fuel in the tanks to 2.75G without - not particularly useful. I'd have thought that the F3 had somewhat similar limits, perhaps not so useful for a fighter methinks! (Hope this doesn't start a GR vs F3 debate!!!). With outboard stores, the G limits with 2250l tanks were greater, but not much!

Tanks were never fitted to the outboard pylons. Again, IIRC, these were for lighter weight stores. As previously mentioned, I think the picture above is a standard, "look what I can carry" publicity picture.

2250l tanks could not be carried under the fuselage - they were too big. Also the wing sweep was limited to 63 degrees when carrying them on the wings, because at 67 they would interfere with the tailerons.

[Dave Fleming]

The 2,250 litre tanks were probably designed to give the Tornado F Mk.3 the maximum possible endurance whilst loitering over the North Sea waiting for the hoards od Soviet bombers to appear over the horizon before sending four Skyflash or AIM-120 in their direction then heading back home as quickly as possible.

That's exactly what they were designed for, and the larger size was designed into the wing sweep mechanism for the F3. When they started carrying them on the Gr1, a physical stop had to be fitted to stop the wing sweep.

There was originally a third tank for the Tornado - a smaller, 'supersonic' one but it was never used passed the prototypes. It did make it into a few of the early kits though!