max lloyd Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 I got one. Re the spiral to the spinner (obviously not just common to the 109). I believe it was used as standard by the late war period, so was presumably officially sanctioned. But why ?- it can't have been particularly effective for identification purposes. Was it just cos' it looked good - an explanation which sounds a bit 'un-Germanic'. Or 'elf and safety device for the ground crews? Anyone know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 A often quoted theory is the spiral would put off allied gunners. If you see film of 109's it's quite hypnotic. eg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k-02t15M3A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max lloyd Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Yes, I can see that - I was becoming a bit sleepy and suggestible. But all the same, seems unlikely to have put off air gunners at distance or at range. I'm sure also there are examples of bomber types - He 177, Ju 87, He 111? with the spirals (perhaps to put off the AA gunners?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 The spinner spiral was an identification marking plain and simple. This is made quite clear in various documents from the time. I can give more detail when I get home tomorrow evening. This white spiral applied to the spinner(s) of fighter aircraft ( it was on twins like the Me 210/410 too) may have developed from similar markings, spirals or bands, mentioned above on other types. These were quite often in Staffel colours. Cheers Steve 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango98 Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) As Steve has correctly noted above (and also supported by original Luftwaffe documentation) they were simply an identification/recognition feature - nothing more and nothing less. The following is taken from the Ghost Bombers site run by my friend and colleague Nick Beale; the relevant sections concerning spinner spirals are highlighted in bold text: CX/MSS/T303/86 From Gruppe West Ferrying Geschwader 1 (Roman) II B ((No.)) 151 on 9/9 to Second (West) Ferrying Geschwader Mannheim/Sandhofen and Third (West) Ferrying Geschwader 1 Wiesbaden/Erbenheim: Subject: recognition marking of a/c in accordance with order No. 1249 of GABOF ((OKL)) Ops. Staff IA Flak (Robinson) dated 3/9. The above is cancelled and the recognition marking of a/c will be as follows: 1) In areas of Luftflotten 1 and 4, of MS (+) Command Southeast and GEHUZ ((GAF General in Hungary)): A) Fighters, Heavy fighters and recce a/c: a dead white spiral on the propellor boss. Bombers and communications a/c as in A). Underside of engines yellow. 2) In areas of GAMOT, GAMOZ and GAMWU ((Luftflotten 2, 3 and 5)): A) Fighters, g/a a/c, heavy fighters and recce a/c as A) All other a/c no special markings. 3) In area of GADNA ((Luftflotte Reich)) (Excluding Hungary) A) Fighters, g/a a/c, heavy fighters as A) CX/MSS/T92/31 VL 6122 From IA on 10/2. To avoid confusion with enemy a/c, C-in-C GAF has issued the following instructions to all fighter and heavy fighter units. 1) That in principle no changes may be made in the camouflage paint as delivered from the factory (except for smoothing, polishing etc.) 2) In the case of those units operating in defence of the Reich, the stipulated band round the fuselage £ Bauchbinde £ will remain as the marking of the individual Geschwader. 3) In principle all Kommodore and Kommandeure of units operating in defence of the Reich to fly with white fins and rudders. 4) All fighter a/c of Luftflotte 3 and Reich are to have a black and white spiral painted on the spinner. Size one and a half spirals turning in the same direction as the spinner. Width ⅕ of the diameter of the spinner. 5) The marking with a series of numbers within the Staffel remains as before. NOTE: Paras. 1) and 5) of the above were included in similar orders for AOC GAF Finland (MSS/T89/141). HTH Cheers Dave Edited September 4, 2014 by tango98 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max lloyd Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Stoner and Tango98 thanks for clearing this up. Interesting that some modern commercial jets have adopted something similar. Thanks all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 (edited) As posted by Dave above there were a series of signals about the new recognition markings intercepted by allied intelligence. Some Luftwaffe units were unsure who should apply the marking and a clarification was issued on 20th July ('44). I've found it on my PC so I might as well post it now 'With effect from today, the recognition markings of our own aircraft in the Western Area (Germany, France and Italy) will change as follows. 1(a) Fighters, including twin engine fighters, ground attack and reconnaissance aircraft are to have a black and white spiral painted on their spinners. 1(b ) All other operational aircraft, no special recognition markings. 2(a) Captured aircraft, if flown operationally, to be marked as per 1(a) above.' My italics. Cheers Steve Edited September 5, 2014 by Stonar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malc2 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 (edited) Do any period pictures exist of this aircraft? Or any documentation? http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt183/Chinamalc2009/100_7796_zps625d4388.jpg Im sorry I do not know who made this model. Regards, Malc. Edited September 5, 2014 by Malc2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango98 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Malcolm, A photo does exist of a 109E in N.Africa with one of the wings finished in the "European" splinter but I don't remember where it was published. Maybe Stonar (Steve) or one of the other members may remember. Sorry I can't be of more help. Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 (edited) I have a recollection of seeing a photograph something like that, but where I can't remember. I'm sure it has been published. I'll have a look but can't promise anything. The way a Bf 109 is constructed makes this an easier thing to accomplish than some might imagine. A wing can be removed/replaced with the aircraft on its undercarriage. Steve Edited September 5, 2014 by Stonar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tank152 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Do any period pictures exist of this aircraft? Or any documentation? Hi, yes Bf109E-7 S9+DR, III/ZG1 There is a profile plus a series of 4 pics showing this aircraft in Vol4 section2 of Luftwaffe Colours. Titled "The Mediterranean 1942-1943" No doubt it can be found in other publications. Tim. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malc2 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Wow, fast response, thanks, Dave, Steve and Tim. Amazon have Jagdwaffe: The Mediterranean 1942-1943, Luftwaffe Colours, Vol. 4, Section 2, ...... at £107! Cheers, Malc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tank152 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 (edited) No problem Malc, hopefully someone on here will be able to provide you with a scan out of the book, I don't own a scanner or I'd have done it. The aircraft is also listed in "Luftwaffe Codes, Markings & Units 1939-1945" Barry C. Rosch, Schiffer. As an aside the S9 code was originally by Erpr.Grp210 which was renamed SKG210 in April 1941 and then renamed ZG1 in January 1942, all Gruppes flew both the Bf110 and Bf109. Just found these pics. Edited September 6, 2014 by tank152 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 I've got the book (in fact I've got the whole series which are my favourite source for Luftwaffe profiles). Is it against copyright to scan and post photos from the book? If not then I will happily scan and post. Duncan B 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elger Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 What colour is the antenna wire (above the fuselage)? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Multi stranded steel cable, so a sort of steel colour. I use Humbrol 56 on 0.5 Kg monofilament at 1/32 scale. Cheers Steve 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPReggie Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Here is a stupid 109 question. I am currently working on Revell's 109G-6 in 1/32, building the late model. The kit comes with the rear seat armouring in a clear piece as can be seen second from bottom right in this pic from a local review of the kit. I have the Eduard masks set, the instructions can be seen here. http://www.eduard.com/store/out/media/JX151.pdf You will see that the mask instructions include a mask to put on the clear rear armouring piece prior to spraying to leave it clear. HOWEVER - the mask set only includes 1 mask, not one for each side. Obviously only covering one side will not leave this section clear. So the question is, was this section of the armour behind the pilot's seat completely see through - so it is an oversight by Eduard, and I will have to make a second mask for the rear section in order to maintain see-through/clear option. My initial google search is not bringing much up - unless my search term is bad. The best image I have found can be seen here - it looks completely clear but the image isn't great. Please could someone with the knowledge fill me in? Thanks guys. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 If you are referring to the armoured headrest often known as "Galland Panzer" then yes, the upper section was see-through. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPReggie Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 If you are referring to the armoured headrest often known as "Galland Panzer" then yes, the upper section was see-through. Thank you, I was pretty sure it was, just confusing that Eduard only included a mask for one side of the thing. Oh well...Thanks for the heads up 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hook Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 I think the reason for locking the slats closed was to avoid asymmetric activation during tight turns, leading to a spoiling of target tracking and the guns solution. As an aside, on the A-4F's of the Blue Angels the slats were locked shut as well for those very reason. Fearful that they might open asymetrically during close formation flying in tight turns, the wing leading-edge slats were bolted shut. http://www.joebaugher.com/usattack/newa4_7.html Cheers, Andre 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelfreak Posted October 26, 2014 Author Share Posted October 26, 2014 That's interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennings Heilig Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Experienced pilots don't need the slats for landing. Huh??? Your level of experience has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the wing stalls or not. Anything that increases low speed stability and controllability with no other down side is always a welcome thing on any airplane, regardless of your experience. The reason the F-86 went from a slatted to an unslatted and quickly back to a slatted wing was the alarming increase in low speed crashes after the slats were deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelfreak Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 I've got the book (in fact I've got the whole series which are my favourite source for Luftwaffe profiles). Is it against copyright to scan and post photos from the book? If not then I will happily scan and post. Duncan B Cool I would really like to see those I build a lot of German WW11 Planes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flag_overlord Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Sorry to go back to the Airfix starter set queries, I've managed to find the full-size photograph: http://www.asisbiz.com/Battles/camouflage/images/Bf-109E-I.JG20-(o+-Hofe-WNr1490-France-1940.jpg http://www.asisbiz.com/Battles/camouflage/images/Bf-109E-III.JG51-(o+-Hofe-WNr-1490-France-1940.jpg 2 different references to the unit, but seems to be the same photograph. Can I ask a few questions as I've got one of these (although I'm more of a SciFi modeller) and was planning to do it in the Humbrol RLM colours: 1. Was there a decision as to whether the paint scheme was 70/71 or 02/71? The webpage seems to suggest it would be 02/71 as the photograph was taken in 1940? 2. The photograph shows a swastika on the tailfin which isn't in the kit, and other (bigger) Messerschmitts have more decalling details on the side. Does anyone know who would do a good swastika decal in 1:72, and whether it's worth getting the smaller detailing decals in this scale? 3. Can anyone advise me on correct colours for the pilot uniform as I'm not great on visual colour matching? Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Sorry to go back to the Airfix starter set queries, I've managed to find the full-size photograph: http://www.asisbiz.com/Battles/camouflage/images/Bf-109E-I.JG20-(o+-Hofe-WNr1490-France-1940.jpg http://www.asisbiz.com/Battles/camouflage/images/Bf-109E-III.JG51-(o+-Hofe-WNr-1490-France-1940.jpg 2 different references to the unit, but seems to be the same photograph. Can I ask a few questions as I've got one of these (although I'm more of a SciFi modeller) and was planning to do it in the Humbrol RLM colours: 1. Was there a decision as to whether the paint scheme was 70/71 or 02/71? The webpage seems to suggest it would be 02/71 as the photograph was taken in 1940? 2. The photograph shows a swastika on the tailfin which isn't in the kit, and other (bigger) Messerschmitts have more decalling details on the side. Does anyone know who would do a good swastika decal in 1:72, and whether it's worth getting the smaller detailing decals in this scale? 3. Can anyone advise me on correct colours for the pilot uniform as I'm not great on visual colour matching? Many thanks the perils of scans from book of ww2 colour pics..... Given the reasonably high contrast of the colours on nose and tailplane, 02/71 seems more likely, and current research thinking is this came in earlier than thought. Join here and ask if you want to know more http://www.luftwaffe-research-group.org/ Swastikas, there are specialist sheets, as for the stencils? eg xtradcals swastikas, or techmod http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/TM72101 Hmm, how close up do you look at your models. want to go to town, techmod do a set https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/TM72055 though you might regret this Pilot's uniform? As in standing about or seated in cockpit? Luftwaffe uniform is blue-grey but a lot pilots wore leather flying jackets. If you trawl thorugh asisbiz you'll find plenty of pilot pics. or this? HTH T 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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