All the stupid bf109 questions here

[JackG]

@quangster  I've checked my reference book, and there is no mention of the nose cannon being removed from the G-6 when the under wing cannon were added.  There is included a photo of the instrument panel, captioned as 'five-gun' version of the G-6.

 

regards,

Jack

[Vesa Jussila]

2 hours ago, quangster said:

Dear modeller friends,

I’m currently backdating a G-14 to an earlier G-6/R-6 with the MG 151/20 underwing gunpods.
I suppose the G-6/R-6 was not fitted with the motorkanone and would like to know what I should do with the motorgun cover provided in the cockpit.
 Should I leave it on or should I remove it? A picture of a G-6 cockpit without the motorgun would help me enormously.

Thank you all for your input.

Cheers,

Quang

 

When you are referring to Motorkanon are you talking about 30mm gun? At least in FAF was using combination 3x20mm gun. 

[quangster]

1 hour ago, Vesa Jussila said:

 

When you are referring to Motorkanon are you talking about 30mm gun? At least in FAF was using combination 3x20mm gun. 

Yes a 30mm gun. The plane already have the two MG 151/20 underwing pods.
 

 

2 hours ago, JackG said:

@quangster  I've checked my reference book, and there is no mention of the nose cannon being removed from the G-6 when the under wing cannon were added.  There is included a photo of the instrument panel, captioned as 'five-gun' version of the G-6.

 

regards,

Jack

I didn’t know there was a five-gun version of the G-6. If there was, it did make sense that they’d keep the cover even if it was unused.

 

Thank you very much ,gents for your input.

Cheers,

Quang

 

[Vesa Jussila]

22 minutes ago, quangster said:

I didn’t know there was a five-gun version

 

I think this is 3x20mm + 2x13mm machine gun.

And if I remember correctly 30mm cover in cockpit was different. More knowledgeable will correct.

[JackG]

Seems to be a misunderstanding,  but no, it is not a five gun factory version of the G-6, it is the total number as a result of adding the Rüstsatz VI kit comprised of under wing gondolas.   Incidentally this mod could either be two MG 151/20, or two MK 108 cannons.

Edited November 9, 2022 by JackG

[quangster]

 

15 minutes ago, Vesa Jussila said:

 

I think this is 3x20mm + 2x13mm machine gun.

And if I remember correctly 30mm cover in cockpit was different. More knowledgeable will correct.

In fact I’m using the 1/32 Zoukei Mura Bf109 G-14/U4 as the donor kit. The 30mm MK 108 cannon is provided together with its cover in the cockpit.

 

3 minutes ago, JackG said:

Seems to be a misunderstanding,  but no, it is not a five gun factory version of the G-6, it is the total number as a result of adding the Rüstsatz VI kit comprised of under wing gondolas.   Incidentally this mod could either be two MG 151/20, or two MK 108 cannons.

Incidentally I understood you rightly. What I meant was: I didn’t know the G-6 could carry 5 guns at the same time.

[JackG]

Yes, the Rüstsatz kits were designed to be used by the whole line of Gustavs to increase performance and combat capability.   There were three levels of these modifications, ranging from simple field work to those that required more changes done to the aircraft to accept the kits.  For the third level, this category required changes performed at the factory. and this included MK 108 cannons mentioned earlier.  For the G-6, this heavier cannon would only be found on the U4 version.

[quangster]

Thank you @JackG  I think I’m beginning to get the picture.

If I understand correctly, a G-6 sporting the MK 108 cannon would invariably start its life with the denomination U4. It would have the cannon, ammunition box and cover installed at the factory.

 

What I would like to know is this:

In the case of a G-6 leaving the factory without the cannon installed, would it still have the accessories pertaining to the bigger gun like the ammunition box and cover or did these accessories came standard with the cockpit ‘furniture’? 

In short, has anyone seen a picture of a G-6 cockpit WITHOUT the cannon ammunition box and cover?

[JackG]

A nose cannon was standard for all Gustavs, that being the 20mm MG 151/20.   Unfortunately it is beyond the scope of the particular book I have been referencing, to describe how the interior changed with the 30mm MK 108 cannon used in it's place.

[quangster]

5 hours ago, JackG said:

A nose cannon was standard for all Gustavs, that being the 20mm MG 151/20.  

 That’s what I needed to know. The picture’s clear now. Thank you Jack and Vesa for being such a great help 🙏

Kind regards,

Quang

[Tim R-T-C]

So here's a dumb question. Does anyone have a good, verifiable, profile and/or photo of a Bf-109C-1!

 

I'm building the AMG kit which comes with some unsourced black and white profiles, including this one that I was tempted by, but can't find any other details about

 

 

I've also seen some profiles of an almost all blue scheme based in Norway 1940, but these do seem to be alternately labelled as C or D models. If anyone knows for sure if some of these were C types, I'd be very happy!

 

Many thanks

[Graham Boak]

The Norwegian ones are usually referred to as Ds, which were more common.  Those particular ones were night fighters.  The high demarcation scheme with the blue coming well up the fuselage sides followed the low demarcation as in the drawing.

 

The C, as I understand it, was intended to have the engine-mounted cannon but this was not ready for service use until the F version.  So only a handful of Cs were built,  Personally, I can't tell B/C/D apart so am no help to you there.  I assume the marking is correct for the unit: otherwise there appears to be nothing objectionable about the scheme.

[JackG]

The linked profile art has a number of elements that do require additional information, because right now they do not make sense (to me anyways).   Having said that, Murphy's law will have someone come along and give the profile a green light.

 

Compare markings to timeline from wiki.  As I. Gruppe the aircraft did not carry a Gruppe marking.  This changed when JG20 became part of JG/51.   Photos show use of the wavy bar (the alternate choice of the vertical bar of III. Gruppe).

 

I. Group

Formed on July 15, 1939 in Döberitz with:

Newly created Stab I./JG 20

1./JG 20 newly created

2./JG 20 newly created

3./JG 20 was formed on November 5, 1939in Brandenburg - Briest.

 

-> July 4, 1940, I./JG 20 is renamed III./JG 51 with:

Stab I./JG 20 becomes Stab III./JG 51

1./JG 20 becomes 7./JG 51

2./JG 20 becomes 8./JG 51

3./JG 20 becomes 9./JG 51

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/JG20.html

[SafetyDad]

On 03/01/2023 at 08:04, Tim R-T-C said:

So here's a dumb question. Does anyone have a good, verifiable, profile and/or photo of a Bf-109C-1!

 

I'm building the AMG kit which comes with some unsourced black and white profiles, including this one that I was tempted by, but can't find any other details about

 

I've also seen some profiles of an almost all blue scheme based in Norway 1940, but these do seem to be alternately labelled as C or D models. If anyone knows for sure if some of these were C types, I'd be very happy!

 

Many thanks

 

A little outside my usual area but here we go...

 

Mombeek, Smith & Creek in Jagdwaffe Vol 1 Section 2 describe how five 109C-1s were sent to Spain with the Legion Condor. 

 

They state that these were coded 6@46 to 6@50. They also post two pics and a profile (apparently only the two pictures exist of 109Cs in Spain). The two pictures show aircraft coded 6@49 and 6@47 - these are finished overall in a single colour on the upper surfaces. I could make a case for this being grey, but the profile shows green (plus this is not an area I know much about - others here may be able to pitch in?). Other profiles in the book with similar colours are captioned as Medium Green 62 above with 65 below. 

 

 

from here

 

 

Pics intentionally distorted slightly and posted in low resolution to discourage any further replication. Posted purely for the purpose of research/discussion.  

 

HTH

 

SD

 

 

[SafetyDad]

@Tim R-T-C

 

This looks like your profile in terms of markings (but differs significantly in detail). I can hear @Troy Smith breaking into song  about profiles just now...

 

 

from here

 

 

Again, posted purely for discussion

 

SD

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

Mombeek, Smith & Creek in Jagdwaffe Vol 1 Section 2 describe how five 109C-1s were sent to Spain with the Legion Condor. 

 

They state that these were coded 6@46 to 6@50. They also post two pics and a profile (apparently only the two pictures exist of 109Cs in Spain). The two pictures show aircraft coded 6@49 and 6@47 - these are finished overall in a single colour on the upper surfaces. I could make a case for this being grey, but the profile shows green (plus this is not an area I know much about - others here may be able to pitch in?). Other profiles in the book with similar colours are captioned as Medium Green 62 above with 65 below. 

 

On 03/01/2023 at 08:04, Tim R-T-C said:

Does anyone have a good, verifiable, profile and/or photo of a Bf-109C-1!

The problem with the C is identifying it.   Unless you can see the Werk Nummer,  or have records that such and such of JG.x was a C, they are  identical externally to a D, so unless the cowling iff and you can Jum0 210G-1 engine the ID is down to records or WNr...

Mermet and Ehrengardt Messerschmitt bf109 book says only 58  C were built,  WNr 1720 - 1777.

 

The only one easy to identify is the Bf109C-3, as it the only one with cannon in the wings.  I think there are two or three photos

 

In the book below, which is the most comprehensive book on the Bf109 in Spain,  with 235 photos, and in depth research, has this on the Bf109C in Spain, that there is no proof that any C models were sent, and would have been a spare parts and logistics nightmare as the engine systems not like any other Jumo engined Bf109.

 

the book says that from photographic information 42 B models were sent, coded 6*17 to 6*58, and  28  D models sent were coded 6*59 - 6*86, 

 

 The Jagdwaffe picture posted by @SafetyDad says the Spanish C models were code 6*46 - 6*50.

 

On page 51 of the book, there is photos of a crashed 6*48, saying it's a B as you can see the external power socket below the cockpit, moved back on the C/D models, and the pic below that has 6*49 in flight with no wing MG showing.

 

I don't have the Jagdwaffe SCW book, does it have anything on the Bf109A in it?   If not then I'd treat it with caution as relying on older incomplete/inaccurate information.

 

https://www.hyperscale.com/2019/reviews/books/germaneaglesspanishskiesbookreviewbg_1.htm

 

 

The book is stunning, and if early 109's and the SCW are you thing, it's pretty much essential, it also goes into detail on the paint schemes used, as well as confirming at least some Bf109 B had an engine mounted MG17 as well. 

 

HTH

[Jochen Barett]

Interesting to see two dark(ish) shades on the flap (and maybe even on the wing) of a plane painted in an "all uppers 70" scheme.

 

[SafetyDad]

5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I don't have the Jagdwaffe SCW book, does it have anything on the Bf109A in it?   If not then I'd treat it with caution as relying on older incomplete/inaccurate information.

 

A quick skim through the volume on the Spanish Civil War reveals no mention of the 109A that I can see - there's a section on the arrival of the Bf109 in the Spanish theatre which focuses upon early B models (with 2 bladed wooden props), plus mention of a couple of prototypes being used in theatre.

 

As I said above, this is not my usual fare  - I'm more acquainted with the late war Luftwaffe, The book does mention that the major difference with the 109C was the fuel-injected Junkers engine. Perhaps not too far removed from other variants to mean a major logistics issue if it was used in the Spanish theatre? I don't know, just thinking out loud...

 

HTH

 

SD

[Graham Boak]

There has been a lot of contradictory information about the Bf.109s in Spain.  I would look in Lynn Ritger's book on the early Bf.109s before the older Jagdwaffe series.  However the grey/green colour will have been RLM 63, which starts as a light green but weathers to a light grey. 

 

The Jagdwaffe volume 1 belatedly resurrects the old myth about early Luftwaffe Bf.109s being a single green on the uppersurfaces.  This was disproven in the 1970s when investigation of higher-quality photos (or just higher quality reproduction of the old ones) showed that these were in 70/71.   If you look closely at the photos of other Bf.109s in the Jagwaffe series (generally poor quality reproductions) you can often make out areas lighter and darker that correspond to the lighter and darker areas of the camouflage.  There is some debatable evidence that a small number of early Bf.109Es appeared in a single green uppersurface during the time when experiments were being carried out with camouflage, usually employing RLM 02.

 

Just to confuse matters, export Bf.109s were delivered with a single dark green uppersurfaces, Ds to the Swiss, Es to the Swiss, Yugoslavs and Romanians.  Romanian Bf.109Es are usually shown in modelling profiles in two greens...  Life's like that.

 

 

[Troy Smith]

35 minutes ago, SafetyDad said:

reveals no mention of the 109A that I can see - there's a section on the arrival of the Bf109 in the Spanish theatre which focuses upon early B models (with 2 bladed wooden props), plus mention of a couple of prototypes being used in theatre.

The Bf109A was one of those 'lost' things,  there were 14 sent to Spain were numbered  6*3 to 6*16,  6*1 was the Bf109V4, 6*2 was the Bf109V3, as well as 42 B models were sent, coded 6*17 to 6*58, and  28  D models sent were coded 6*59 - 6*86, 

Most of the A models have been called B models in older books,  the Mermet and Ehrengardt Messerschmitt bf109 book says the Bf109A only differed from the B-0 in not having provision for an engine mounted MG 17,  so identifying them requires knowing the codes.

43 minutes ago, SafetyDad said:

As I said above, this is not my usual fare  - I'm more acquainted with the late war Luftwaffe, The book does mention that the major difference with the 109C was the fuel-injected Junkers engine. Perhaps not too far removed from other variants to mean a major logistics issue if it was used in the Spanish theatre? I don't know, just thinking out loud...

 

I posted this above

" the book below, which is the most comprehensive book on the Bf109 in Spain,  with 235 photos, and in depth research, has this on the Bf109C in Spain, that there is no proof that any C models were sent, and would have been a spare parts and logistics nightmare as the engine systems not like any other Jumo engined Bf109."

Maybe some were sent there to check how the systems performed, but the sort of thing liable to be noted for the added complexity.

 

I'd also add while this may not be your usual fare, it's well worth looking for, as it's a fascinating book, and plenty of model possibilities for various schemes, silberwiess, then RLM70/71/65, a modified RLM 70/81/65, with the 70 being overpainted,  one that maybe 61/6/63 uppers, and the 63/65....

 

Or perhaps just another rabbit hole you don't need to go down

 

[SafetyDad]

5 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Or perhaps just another rabbit hole you don't need to go down

 

 

Indeed!       

 

I found this

 

so now I don't feel so bad!

 

SD (reading and learning, but still confused!)

 

Thanks Troy for the input. And Graham - I wasn't aware that the Jagdwaffe volumes (at least these ones) were suspect in terms of info

[Troy Smith]

36 minutes ago, SafetyDad said:

SD (reading and learning, but still confused!)

The info I quoted on colours is the current last word.  

 

Also note

and the link to this

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/a-little-help-from-the-bf109-guys-t239891.html

with this from David Johnston

"I am the author. I have been collecting photos of LC Bf 109s for several decades and have wanted to write something, but without new information I saw no point in rehashing Ries and Ring. A friend in Germany led me to records of LK 88 for the period 1936-mid-1937. It was responsible for assembling and testing new aircraft as they arrived in Spain. The daily and weekly records contain a wealth of information about the prototypes and the Bf 109 As that arrived in early 1937. They answer quite a few questions but leave others unanswered. Hopefully more records can be found to close some of the remaining gaps, but I hope that this information and previously unpublished photos will spur further research."

"The LK 88 records confirm that the seams were puttied and sanded smooth. They also contain many other tidbits about equipment and teething troubles that the prototypes and A models went through."

 

There is an old thread here, pre "silberweiss" 

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/early-bf-109-spanish-civil-war-t186474.html

 

these photo

of 6*19,  shows well the puttied seams and the silberweiss paint.  

 

this is the earlier form of the code display

 

Decent pic selection here

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109D/Condor.html

 

 

As we are talking about the early 109's  this a crashed B, 6*43

 

note the THREE MG 17's on the wing,  showing the use of the engine mounted MG on some B models.

 

If this sort of thing is of interest, then get the German Eagles in Spanish Skies,  I was every impressed when I got a copy.

 

 

[JackG]

2 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

 - I wasn't aware that the Jagdwaffe volumes (at least these ones) were suspect in terms of info

 

Yes, I recall the four books dealing with the Battle of Britain also contain errors.   Apparently corrections were sent to the publisher, but never made it to the printing stage.

[Tim R-T-C]

Many thanks for the interesting discussion, glad to know that I'm not just being exceptionally dumb over these early models.

 

Amusingly my kit, the AMG release, has four different cowlings for B, C and D variants which are so nearly identical that it hardly seems worthwhile. IIRC the Armory kit just had you use filler on certain bumps at the front of the cowling to turn the B into a C or D.

 

12 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

@Tim R-T-C

 

This looks like your profile in terms of markings (but differs significantly in detail). I can hear @Troy Smith breaking into song  about profiles just now...

 

 

 

Excellent, this confirms at least that the plane really existed, even if the authors of that book can't tell if its a C or D.

 

I personally do like the all monotone green schemes, like on the Swiss examples, but I think I'll stick to the more likely 70/71 splinter combo.

[kitchentable]

Hi

I'm probably going to regret doing this, but.... I have not seen any of you mention the reference books "Radinger and Schick" (which covers Bf`109A - E over 130 pages) and "Richard A Frank's" (who writes about Bf109 Early Series V1 to E-9 in 230 pages).   Have you not referred to them because they are historically known to be off the pace and so not helpful on 109A and 109B?   As a layman I can say that both works try to hit head-on the mystery of As and Bs.  Whether they contribute anything useful is not for me to say.   The Franks book was made into a second edition in 2022.

Phil