All the stupid bf109 questions here

[Ingo Ritz]

TallBlondJohn,

 

What colour would the gun troughs be - red?

 

The gun troughs on some early machines was painted with a heat resistant gray paint.   Some researchers when looking at black and white photos mistakenly identified the gray paint as yellow and incorrectly assumed it for tactical or decorative purposes. 

 

and the big one - what is going on under the forward tactical marking?

 

I believe that this is just a shadow of the person standing by the aircraft, and is consistent with the shadow under the tail plane.

 

 

[TallBlondJohn]

Regular gun troughs - check. But I'm certain that's not a shadow - the edge is too hard and straight, and the white edging of the marking does not dim.

 

If it is the old scheme its a strange place to stop, half way across the chevron. Maybe they are in the actual process of re-painting - which would explain the ground crew and recording the event with a picture. But I think the hose wielded by the bald chap is just refueling.

[JackG]

Larger image for closer study...

 

 

It does appear to be shadow of the ground person performing the refueling.  The white outline of the tactical  marking may standout the way it is because the photo has had it's contrast dialed up, or maybe some wartime photo touch up that reintroduced the white?

 

regards,

Jack

 

[dov]

Hallo

The barrels of light weapons and heavy machine guns were burnished in the German armor.

This is a chemical surface treatment process. It aims to protect the surface from corrosion.

Due to the effects of heat and the effects of the weather and mechanical effects, any other type of surface protection is not possible.

This surface is always slightly flat.

Not dull flat. The surface can also be polished and oiled.

This is just a question of care.

Color black with a brown tint.

Depends on the age of the burnishing bath used.

Same process untill today at the Austrian army.

Happy modelling

[kitchentable]

Hello

My next project is the 1/48th Airfix Bf-109.   I have the Club Members version (captured and Japanese markings), but I want to build it as a Battle of Britain E-3.   Can I seek opinions as to:

i/ markings for a nice typical E-3 BoB with available decals and a consensus on the paint scheme

ii/ any recommended -109 books that cover the history of the Emil as well as modelling the Emil

iii/ any after-market items that come recommended.   I have bought the gun barrels already from Aber.

 

I have read this thread: lots of interest but I couldn't find anything that addressed my rather simple questions.

Phil

 

[Black Knight]

A. you can use the kit to make an E3

Use the blunt spinner with the hole in the front.

Use the E4 canopy. Most E3 were retro fitted with the E4 canopy during 1940. Depending on the actual aircraft you may or may not need the head armour

Do not use any parts for things like the drop tank under the belly. The E3 could not carry that

B. There are a quadzillion decal sets for 109E3s.

Visit Hannants to see; https://www.hannants.co.uk/search/index.php?adv=1&product_category_id=&product_division_id=&manufacturer_id=&product_type_id=all_decals&code=&scale_id=955&keyword_search=messerschmitt+109e&setPerPage=100&stock=1&sort=price&search_direction=asc&restore_search=&save_search_active=yes&save_search_name=&save_search=

 

Also look on Wings Palette; http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/32/2

Look for a scheme which takes your fancy.

 

B. Books, there are loads.

Haynes does a 'Owners Manual'; https://www.amazon.co.uk/Messerschmitt-Bf109-Manual-Onwards-Marks/dp/1844256421

An old book I like and use is an old Airfix Guide; 'Classic Aircraft No.2 Messerschmitt 109' but this book can be quite expensive now.

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30090368736&searchurl=an%3Droy%2Bcross%2Band%2Bgerald%2Bscarborough%26sortby%3D17&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title4

 

C. You can throw as much aftermarket on to the kit as you want.

I do think replacement exhausts look better; https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/QB48375?result-token=hZZw1

and if you are not for putting the pilot in, seatbelts; https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/ED49002?result-token=ivhEB

 

 

[Troy Smith]

39 minutes ago, kitchentable said:

but I want to build it as a Battle of Britain E-3.   Can I seek opinions as to:

i/ markings for a nice typical E-3 BoB with available decals and a consensus on the paint scheme

You can build the kit as an E-1, or E-3 or E-4 ,  there a loads of well documented BoB E models.  there isn't really a 'typical' BoB scheme,  they varied a lot between units, and during the battle, as in the adding mottle, adding white/yellow nose/rudders/wingtips, .  Most of the Luftwaffe fighter units were involved,    that's a lot of 109s.   

There is handy primer on camo and markings  here 

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/camo/bob/bob_camo.htm

 

By @tango98 /Dave Wadman,  who was one of the authors of the Classic Publications BoB camo and markings series

 

 See Asisbiz link below as well.

 

 Someone would probably swap club decals for another scheme.

 

 

39 minutes ago, kitchentable said:

ii/ any recommended -109 books that cover the history of the Emil as well as modelling the Emil

Multiple books.  Depends on what you want, and how much you want to spend.  Honestly,  you can find enough builds online you don't need a book. 

the SAM Modellers Datafile on the early  109's is by Lynn Ritger, who knows his subject, may be worthwhile, as has a load of walkround images and drawings.

http://misc.kitreview.com/bookreviews/modellersdatafile9bookreviewbg_1.htm

 

If you want to drown in Bf109 E scheme, Wingleader were/are doing a promotion of buy 2 get 1 free, and they have 3 photo books on BoB Bf109E units https://www.wingleader.co.uk/series/wingleader-photo-archive

the codes was FB342,  which if it still work would get you all 3 photos books for £40 plus £3 post

 

If you just want a load of photos, there are 100's here 

https://www.asisbiz.com/Bf-109E.html

Captions are not always correct, but will give you a good idea of possible BoB schemes.

 

39 minutes ago, kitchentable said:

iii/ any after-market items that come recommended.   I have bought the gun barrels already from Aber.

If you use the square canopy, the centre section needs replacing,  Airfix used the Bf109E at Hendon, and that had the centre section replaced with one off a G model post war.  

The prop blades are a bit skinny.       The UC sits a bit high, there is a simple fix for this by Lynn Ritger, I'll see if I can find it.

3 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Also look on Wings Palette; http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/32/2

Look for a scheme which takes your fancy.

Profiles. And this place just uses any it finds, however old or discredited.    Not to be trusted, but you can cross reference with Asisbiz which does have a load of photos.

3 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

 

B. Books, there are loads.

 

An old book I like and use is an old Airfix Guide; 'Classic Aircraft No.2 Messerschmitt 109' but this book can be quite expensive now.

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30090368736&searchurl=an%3Droy%2Bcross%2Band%2Bgerald%2Bscarborough%26sortby%3D17&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title4

I very recently got the PSL book,  though I had from the library in my youth, and as pdf as well.    One of the better in there series, but still dated,  it was published nearly 50 years ago though, and  is maybe the first book really aimed at the modeller.       

 

Not meant as put down of @Black Knight, just a bit of background on the book,    

 

HTH

[kitchentable]

Thank you to everyone.   With a subject like a 109 there is almost too much going on.   Hannants has about 800 items in 1/48.   There seems to be no Eduard (or other) PE set for the Airfix model though, which is annoying.   Is there any experience of using a set meant for another manufacturer,   On the windscreen/canopy point, I would like to read something that is near definitive on the subject.   Any ideas for the article that does the best job at doing that?   The Airfix kit actually has three different windscreens included,

Phil

[Jochen Barett]

15 minutes ago, kitchentable said:

Thank you to everyone.   With a subject like a 109 there is almost too much going on.   Hannants has about 800 items in 1/48.   There seems to be no Eduard (or other) PE set for the Airfix model though, which is annoying.   Is there any experience of using a set meant for another manufacturer,   On the windscreen/canopy point, I would like to read something that is near definitive on the subject.   Any ideas for the article that does the best job at doing that?   The Airfix kit actually has three different windscreens included,

Phil

The only easy day was yesterday.

 

Take a look at pics including "fancy profiles" https://www.google.com/search?q=bf+109+battle+of+britain+paint+schemes , study stories of aces, erase all your memories of "Battle of Britain" movie pictures, make your choice and try to find the evidence 😉

 

(and build a model that looks OKish or at least plausible)

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, kitchentable said:

There seems to be no Eduard (or other) PE set for the Airfix model though, which is annoying.   Is there any experience of using a set meant for another manufacturer, 

Always a risk. there are generic luftwaffe seat belts.   You don't need much more if building with the canopy shut.

Eduard did a set

https://www.eduard.com/eduard/photo-etched-parts/photo-etched-set/aircraft/1-48/bf-109e-4-s-a-1-48.html

 

OOP though.  

 

2 hours ago, kitchentable said:

 On the windscreen/canopy point, I would like to read something that is near definitive on the subject.   Any ideas for the article that does the best job at doing that?   The Airfix kit actually has three different windscreens included,

one windscreen is for the early curved canopy.

 

the other two windscreens are the standard one for the square canopy, and one with a hole for Galland's telescopic sight.  The front an back parts are fine,  it's the square centre section is wrong. 

 

Airfix used the Hendon 109E as a reference. 

 

the Hendon Bf109 was captured, and tested as  DG200 , and at some point lost the centre canopy, as seen here

 

 

This was replaced post war with one from a Bf109G.,

 

The G canopy was notably 'beefed up' as some models were pressurised, and has solid bars in the centre.

 

   Hendon 109

 

and one from a Russian lake

 

no centre bar, less heavy framing.

from

https://www.net-maquettes.com/pictures/messerschmitt-bf-109e/

which has lots of useful detail

 

If you are looking at AM and new decals etc for the Airfix kit, you maybe better off just getting a different/better kit.  

 

the Wingsy kit looks to be very good, with small easy to fix issues.  

https://www.hyperscale.com/2021/reviews/kits/wingsyd508reviewbg_1.htm

 

 The Eduard bf109E is noted for being slightly too big,  maybe noticeable next to another kit,  not on it's own, and these come as profipacks with multiple decals,  etch and masks which may fit your requirements.

 

HTH

 

 

[SafetyDad]

@kitchentable - here you go, Bf 109 canopies in detail...

 

 

from here

 

 

an older reference granted, but helpful in this case.

 

Also here, where @Troy Smith provides more evidence

 

HTH

 

 

SD

[kitchentable]

Thanks again.  I have decided to build an early E-3 and use the decals from Techmod for a JG3 aircraft in September 1939.   I can use the E-3 windscreen without worrying whether it had been modified to an E-4 type windscreen.  I appreciate the info about the incorrect opening portion of the canopy in the Airfix kit, so I had best get a vacform for that.   I looked at the instructions for the out of production Eduard PE set, (thanks Troy).  That set would have been fantastic and I would love to find one.  As a substitute I see Hannants are selling 3-D Printed cockpit sets on decal paper from Quinta.   I am intrigued and may give that a go.   Phil

[jackroadkill]

@kitchentable, I adapted (by careful filing) the Eduard instrument panel that is intended for the Tamiya Bf109E to fit my Airfix  Emil with very little difficulty.

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, kitchentable said:

 I can use the E-3 windscreen without worrying whether it had been modified to an E-4 type windscreen. 

The image from the 109 Gallery book, while very good for the different types,  is wrong in as much as you saw many variations and replacement canopies.  There is not a E-1 /E-3/E-4 canopy,  just different canopies.

  It would be a good bet that a 1939 canopy is the early rounded type,  but unless you really fancy scheme X for whatever reason,  a more pragmatic approach to accuracy  is to pick a well documented scheme.   Asisbiz is useful for finding photos.

1 hour ago, kitchentable said:

I appreciate the info about the incorrect opening portion of the canopy in the Airfix kit, so I had best get a vacform for that. 

It's only wrong for the square type canopy, the rounded early type is fine AFAIK, though a vac can be useful if open for more scale effect.

 

1 hour ago, kitchentable said:

As a substitute I see Hannants are selling 3-D Printed cockpit sets on decal paper from Quinta.   I am intrigued and may give that a go.

They are very impressive.   One point, if not building an open canopy, it's worth dry fitting the canopy and seeing how much is really visible clearly.  Seat straps usually are, but a lot of other detail can be hard to make out. 

The Airfix pit is reasonable, and can be easily given a bit zing with some wires and sprue levers etc  and a careful paint job.      It very easy to get carried away with the idea you 'need' AM.   Some of it is great,  but have a look at what's in the kit, look at some cockpit photos and take it from there.  

AM companies of course want you to think that you need the added bells and whistles. 

The final point,  we have got used to fantastic builds with macro photography of tiny details.    That in real life you be hard pressed to see without a powerful penlight and magnifying glass.    

Not trying to put you off,  just some thoughts on effort/cost/time vs end result,  Of course if you do a build on here and put up the photos then those details are then not 'lost' in the  WIP photos .... 

I'm not turning up images for the 1939 JG3 plane, take its this one

 

 

while there are colour photos of this white 13.....

 

 

 

 

 

oodles of detail and pretty natty scheme as well.

 

HTH

 

[Hook]

16 hours ago, jackroadkill said:

@kitchentable, I adapted (by careful filing) the Eduard instrument panel that is intended for the Tamiya Bf109E to fit my Airfix  Emil with very little difficulty.

In addition, I was able to adapt spare 1/72nd Special Hobby instrument panels to the Airfix 109E with little effort. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

 

[kitchentable]

Thanks for the further encouragement,   I am tempted by building White 13 because it is more classic BoB -109E.   I presume not enough is known about the aircraft to say whether it was built as an E-3 or E-4, albeit it clearly has the early canopy associated with the E-3?   I might be sorted on the canopy, but I am still unsighted on the guns.   I read that E-3s were delivered with MG-FF wing cannon and E-4s with MG-FF/M.   Is there any visual difference either between the barrels or the fairings for the two types of FF?  One final question, where is the airfield in the shots of White 13?

Phil

[Troy Smith]

35 minutes ago, kitchentable said:

Thanks for the further encouragement,   I am tempted by building White 13 because it is more classic BoB -109E.   I presume not enough is known about the aircraft to say whether it was built as an E-3 or E-4,

It is very likely this is known, given the pilot, Walter Blume,  aircraft identity, unit, location and date are known,  but I don't have it.   Given the canopy i'd say an early E-3,  but perhaps @G.R.Morrison  @tango98 or @SafetyDad  may have this in their files. 

 

I stuck 'Walter Blume JG 26" into google

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archive/index.php?t-11173.html

 

which got a date and location then using those

 

https://www.battle-of-britain.org.uk/history/august-1940-day-by-day

scroll down to 18 aug

 

"Bf 109E-4 of 7/JG26 shot down by Flying Officer A.F. Eckford and Pilot Officer K. Pniak of 32 Squadron during combat over Canterbury at 17.30.  Aircraft crashed at Elmstead Court, Barham and Oberlt W. Blume captured."

 

I don't know if this is the same Walter Blume, or if aircraft lost is the one in the photos.    But there has been a lot of very detailed research on this over the years, and someone will know. 

 

If it is you could do a 32 Sq Hurricane to match.....

35 minutes ago, kitchentable said:

albeit it clearly has the early canopy associated with the E-3? 

As i have said, the canopy is not tied to the subtype.   

35 minutes ago, kitchentable said:

 I might be sorted on the canopy, but I am still unsighted on the guns.   I read that E-3s were delivered with MG-FF wing cannon and E-4s with MG-FF/M.   Is there any visual difference either between the barrels or the fairings for the two types of FF? 

AFAIK, externally, no.  

35 minutes ago, kitchentable said:

One final question, where is the airfield in the shots of White 13?

Phil

the site says Caffiers, (if you hover a pointer over the image it says this)

They are famous images, probably taken for Signal magazine. 

 

HTH

 

[G.R.Morrison]

Mr. Smith,

Sorry for the delay in responding, drove 100+ miles in an ice storm today -- slow going, but witnessed only one off the road after a too-fast turn.  Late return, then spoke with daughter (at uni in England), THEN email replies.

 

Bf 109E-3 / Bf 109E-4?  Some years ago Don Caldwell told me all of JG 26s Bf 109E were listed in their documentation as "E-4" before (and during) the Battle of Britain.  I do not have a record of the Werknummer of Blume's "weiße 13" -- but early Luftwaffe records do not contain details that were included later.  Quite often losses were listed only as "Bf 109" without mention of sub-type, nor Werknummer.

 

Blume's "home field" was indeed Caffiers, where the III/JG 26 was based between 21.July - 10.Nov. 1940, after which they transferred to Abbeville-Drucat.   Blume was repatriated in October 1943, flew further ops with the I/JG 27 (where he eventually became Gruppenkommandeur), and claimed 8 Viermots.  He died in July 1965.

 

As you already know, the earlier rounded-top canopy is not an indicator for 'E-1' nor 'E-3', but this idea seems embedded in modelers' consciousness, reinforced by kit labelling.  There were some pilots that preferred the earlier canopy style.  Herbert Ihlefeld (of the I(J)/LG 2, and later the I/JG 77) had several (such as Priller's former 6./JG 51 machine, WNr.5057), including an E-7 (WNr.6095) with this earlier type.  Horst Carganico had that style canopy retrofitted on one of his Bf 109F-4s, WNr.10256 (lost 22.July 1942 near Motowski Bay, he managing to evade capture and walk back from behind Soviet lines).

 

GRM

[SafetyDad]

On 24/12/2021 at 23:28, Troy Smith said:

The image from the 109 Gallery book, while very good for the different types,  is wrong in as much as you saw many variations and replacement canopies.  There is not a E-1 /E-3/E-4 canopy,  just different canopies.

 

HTH

 

 

That's new info to me, and very helpful (I tend to have more of a focus on late-war aircraft). 

Thanks!

 

SD

[kitchentable]

Hi

Reaching back a couple of weeks I gained your group advice on modelling an early Emil.   Thank you again.   The decals have now arrived, plus some reference books, and I am homing in my list of other items to buy.   I'm not yet swayed on buying resin control surfaces because the Airfix parts look as good, but I will revisit that decision at the right time.   Where I want some help is at the business end.   Is there a 1/48th DB601 that is recommended and available?  Associated with the motor, I am not sure of some details.  Specifically, with the top cowling removed, is the exhaust manifold visible, and does each cylinder have its own manifold?  All photos I can find are from ground level and they do not look down enough.   Common sense tells me there must have been air gaps around each manifold part, but I cant visualise what it looks like.   Also, are there any clear photos of the top cowling open and propped?  I want to model it like that but I cant work out at what points the hinge line was fixed to the airframe. 

Thanks in advance for any help proffered/

Phil

[JackG]

The Emil cowl wasn't hinged like the later F and G models, but instead has a number of latches on both sides.   The entire top section (and/or bottom) is completely removed in order to perform maintenance.

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Black Knight]

6 hours ago, kitchentable said:

. . . Specifically, with the top cowling removed, is the exhaust manifold visible, and does each cylinder have its own manifold?  All photos I can find are from ground level and they do not look down enough.   Common sense tells me there must have been air gaps around each manifold part, but I cant visualise what it looks like. . . . 

Each cylinder has a folded and welded steel exhaust outlet bolted to the engine. There is no gap. If you look carefully you can see the three threaded studs, two top and one bottom, on each exhaust port, the oval holes

[alt-92]

10 hours ago, kitchentable said:

 Is there a 1/48th DB601 that is recommended and available?

Aires (4093) and CMK (CMKA4059) did a DB601A for Emils. 

[Crimea River]

Eduard make one in the Brassin series but it's pricey. Here's a picture showing the exhaust stub attachment:

 

[kitchentable]

Thank you for the flurry of help.   It is Crimea's rendering of the Eduard DB601 that answers my first detail question.   Assuming it is accurate (!), it shows each exhaust manifold stub is separate and there are gaps between each manifold.  Immediately above the exhaust stubs there is a opening flap that seems to give access to the injectors.   Mike G's photos have the flap open in one and closed in the other.   The way Airfix presented the motor is a simple representation of the upper part of the block sat on a solid plinth, hence all the detail around the injectors and exhaust stubs is missing.  With your help I believe I am adequately clear on it now.   Buying the Eduard Brassin motor will be a decision to make!

I appreciate being made clear on the basic point that Emil's had one piece upper cowlings.  That solves that problem!   Was this teased off forward over the mg barrels, or were the barrels detached before the upper cowling?

Many thanks again

Phil