1/24 Tiffie canopy

[hendie]

Injection moulding is a black art: it is not just connect all the equipment and switch it on. A complex injection moulding tool is not a miracle with a starter button.

Injection molding is not a "black art" as you call it. At least not when done properly. There are plenty tools and processes to allow you to define the operational window of the process and the mold. Of course, a good process will never compensate for a bad mold, and vice versa.

It all depends upon how much you want to spend up front. i.e. Spend the money up front and validate your mold and process, thereby ensuring that: provided your operators run within the validated window, you will get good parts. Don't spend the money and it's all guesswork.

Thousands of companies are doing it every day and making good product. Look around you and you will see plenty of injection molded components that are thinner, more complex, and with greater optical quality.

Without knowing anything about Airfix or their molding shop, I can only guess that there was no mold flow analysis, and/or their process is not validated or optimized.

How many times have we seen business going abroad because it's cheaper, only to find, yes, there was an obvious reason why it was cheaper.

[noelh]

How many times have we seen business going abroad because it's cheaper, only to find, yes, there was an obvious reason why it was cheaper.

There's truth in that. I worked for a huge and famous computer company for seven years. One day they decided to shut our plant down and move the whole operation to Singapore to save money, not that we were well paid or anything. I was happy and took my big redundancy check. Other moved to other divisions in the company. One told me later the move to Singapore was quickly regretted and serious consideration was given to re-opening our plant. But they just shut down the Singapore plant too and moved on again. I got a certain pleasure from hearing that.

[georgeusa]

I have read the complaints about Airfix and the canopy issue on this and other threads. I am currently building the kit. I went overboard and will suffer for it from SWMBO at some point in time and own three kits. All of them had cracked canopies. I have received very prompt replies from Airfix indicating there is a problem and replacements will be shipped. The kit taken as a whole is wonderfully made, designed and executed. (At least through the engine part of the process; that's as far as I have gotten.) The quality control on the kit parts seems up to standards and I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with the canopy. I think AIrfix realizes they have a problem with the canopy. With hindsight, they now realize they should have suffered a bit more with the complaints about the kit issuance being delayed and gotten the canopy issue correct rather than release it when they did and try to cope with any complaints. To fix this issue will take some time. I would imagine to properly fix it a new mold will have to be developed and the canopy will have to be just a tad thicker. They goofed. Once they goofed, they tried to make it right with the existing limited means of trying to rectify the matter. With hindsight, probably should have just said, new, correct canopies will require this process and it will take this amount of time.

However, to act like this kit is horrendous and the quality control on it is awful is also a disservice. So far, I am quite enjoying the build of this kit and it is a really good kit. To be honest, the kit is way above what I normally expect from Airfix. Airfix made a mistake and they are paying for it, but some of the reactions to Airfix's mistake are way out of proportion. If you really hate the kit because of the canopy, I will pay your shipping costs to me and will not complain about a cracked, distorted canopy.

[hendie]

Very well put George.

The main thing that gets me is that from what I can gather, Airfix seem to be trying to reposition themselves as a world class producer of quality kits. Great, it's good to see someone aiming for the top, and I am all for that.

However, surely if that were the case, in that position, they should have been on top of the situation and this issue should never have happened. - Where was their QA throughout the development? What is their sampling plan - do they have one?

And the replacements issue is just rubbing salt in the wound. - Another thing that should never have happened.

It appears that there are a few people in the chain who aren't doing their jobs, and/or there is a distinct lack of communication in the organization. You cannot be top of the tree in 95% of your product if the other 5% is also needed to make it complete.

You can take the view that okay, it's only a few kits, or it's only one part out of xx total parts in the kit. Reputation is much bigger than just a few kits, and Airfix just don't seem to be doing themselves any favors in that respect. People are people and they tend to remember the bad things before the good things.

From what I have read about Airfix in the past few months, if I were going to spend a sizable amount of cash on one of their products, I don't think I would want to part with the cash before I had seen the contents.

[Edgar]

- Where was their QA throughout the development? It appears that there are a few people in the chain who aren't doing their jobs, and/or there is a distinct lack of communication in the organization. You cannot be top of the tree in 95% of your product if the other 5% is also needed to make it complete.

If you actually take the trouble to look (and I mean look) at the sprue, you'll see a small distortion where an entry point, for a flow of plastic has been blanked off, so their inefficient QA obviously did find a problem, and thought they'd fixed it. And one part, out of 509, is not 5%; it isn't even close. Talk to anyone in the trade (I have,) and you'll be told that clear parts are always the most difficult to get right.

From what I have read about Airfix in the past few months, if I were going to spend a sizable amount of cash on one of their products, I don't think I would want to part with the cash before I had seen the contents.

What, exactly, have you read? How many kits have been reported as being not worth the money? I obviously read different press reports from you, since I haven't seen anything.

[hendie]

If you actually take the trouble to look (and I mean look) at the sprue, you'll see a small distortion where an entry point, for a flow of plastic has been blanked off, so their inefficient QA obviously did find a problem, and thought they'd fixed it. And one part, out of 509, is not 5%; it isn't even close.

By "sprue" I take it you mean the runner system. The sprue is actually the channel which feeds the runner system from the injection nozzle. The sprue is generally removed from the runner system after ejection from the machine and used as regrind (where permitted). This photo explains the terminology pretty clearly... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mold_cavity.jpg

Unless someone posts a really good photo of said part/runner/gate, it's highly unlikely I will ever set eyes on the part. Tiffies or whatever they're called are not really my thing.

If their inefficient QA thought they had fixed a problem, and didn't check afterwards to confirm it... their inefficient QA deserves to looking for other employment, he's obviously not doing a very good job in his current position.

You are absolutely correct, one part out of 509 is nowhere near 5%, not even close.

I was making a very general (e.g. broad, sweeping etc.) statement around the fact that if you are aiming for the top, you can't afford to let little things slip through. It takes a long time to build a reputation, and it can disappear almost overnight if it's not looked after properly. Maybe I should have clarified my statement a bit more.

The fact that Airfix let through such a defect in the first place was surprising. The fact that they compounded the issue by sending out replacement parts which were in essence no better is even more surprising. It just seems that they are not handling the issue very well at all, or really don't understand the issue. Maybe some of the people who have spent a hundred pounds or thereabouts of their money on the kit can comment.

If it were my money, I wouldn't be very happy, but again, that's just my opinion.

Talk to anyone in the trade (I have,) and you'll be told that clear parts are always the most difficult to get right.

Funnily enough, I am in the trade. If the appropriate work has been done up front, clear parts are no more difficult than any other part. That's the value of doing the work up front - if your analysis and/or validation highlights issues - you fix it before you get to production, as we are all well aware that once it gets there, it's a darn sight more expensive to rectify.

What, exactly, have you read? How many kits have been reported as being not worth the money? I obviously read different press reports from you, since I haven't seen anything.

Pretty much nothing really, some posts on this forum, some posts on that forum. But it does seem that pretty much every forum has a few threads on the canopy issue.

I don't think I said anything about kits not being worth the money... wait... just checked my post - pretty sure I didn't say anything of the sort.

What I did say was:

From what I have read about Airfix in the past few months, if I were going to spend a sizable amount of cash on one of their products, I don't think I would want to part with the cash before I had seen the contents.

....which was merely the expression of a personal opinion (mine), nothing more, nothing less. That was_not_the_same as saying something was not worth the money. I simply stated I wanted to inspect the contents before handing over my money. It's my money and I can do what I want with it.

[Edgar]

So, to paraphrase, you haven't got the kit, will not be getting the kit (it's actually called "Hawker Typhoon IB",) but feel qualified to comment on a part, without seeing it.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Edgar

[hendie]

I guess that pretty much sums it up.

Isn't that what we do here? I thought that was what forums are for? y'know - open conversation, meetings of the minds, exchange of ideas etc.

[keefr22]

If their inefficient QA thought they had fixed a problem, and didn't check afterwards to confirm it... their inefficient QA deserves to looking for other employment, he's obviously not doing a very good job in his current position.

And the worst part is, the inefficient QC have done the same thing before - witness the multi page thread on the 72nd scale Lightning canopies problem in the Cold War forum. Strangely familiar tale - flawed canopies being replaced by even worse examples and 'customer service' that can't read e-mails & reply with almost unintelligible answers.

But then - is it actually inefficient QC, or is it the bean counters running the operation. Surely even the most inefficient QC would have been on alert for clear parts problems after the Lightning fiasco, so is it a case of the accountants saying "no, we can't delay the release of our new wonderkit, send it to market - the vast majority of punters won't notice & we can fob off the minority of trouble makers on modelling forums by keeping sending them 'replacements' until they get fed up & go away & buy a vacform replacement! They'll still buy our next kit" After all, I still haven't had 'perfect' replacements for my three Lightning canopies, but I will get a couple of F6's, and did buy a Blenheim - that also has flawed clear parts. And if I had room I'd get a Typhoon - so who's the mug in all this....?

[Mike]

I'm sitting here shaking my head a little at the excitement that a cracked and/or distorted part can engender, and the feeling from reading some posts that Airfix have done it on purpose just to spite you. I think both sides of the "argument" if that's the word for it need to take a step back, and breathe for a minute. Airfix are aware of the problem, and they have said that a solution will be forthcoming. For those that have contacted them very early on, they might have received a good, bad or indifferent replacement because at the time there was no alternative.

How many of us I wonder are actually having our builds held up by this issue that needs sorting yesterday? Not many, I'd imagine, as we're all inveterate hoarders of tonnes of kits. Give Airfix some time, and I'm sure they will sort it out to (almost) everyone's satisfaction. Afterall, adjusting a mould, testing and then re-running a batch of sprues isn't the work of an evening - it takes time, and then has to travel from India to the UK before it can be re-checked, and finally distributed between the spares people and the boxes in the warehouses around the country with possibly faulty canopies. It's a logistical nightmare.

At the moment, hearing people talking of not buying Airfix again over this, and how their QC is non-existent, it's like a remake of Chicken Likin and the sky falling down. I don't mean to ruffle feathers (geddit?), but let's be a bit more objective about it, please!

[Griffter]

Good post Mike.

People seem to have no patience these days... in our hobby, I thought that was the one thing we should all have lots of.

[keefr22]

Trouble is Mike, my cynical post was in response to what now seems to me to be a fairly cynical attitude on the part of Airfix's management. They were aware of the problems with the Lightning canopies in early March, & posts on that thread show that people had made them aware of similar problems with their new mould kits even before that. There have been numerous replies from Airfix as to 'we're aware of the problem, we'll fix it ASAP & in the meantime here are some (useless) replacements for your parts'. I'm still waiting for 'good' (I'm not expecting perfect!) replacements for my Lightning canopies. And yes, I have a build stalled whilst I wait. Now I know I could crash mould my own but I've got enough other things to be getting on with, & also at the moment the principle of it is stopping me being bothered to do so.

I'll still buy Airfix kits cos they do the things I want. As I mentioned I bought a Blenheim as soon as it came out & have a Gnat on pre-order. I'll probably cave in & get a Dornier too. But I'm now expecting to get problems with the clear parts (proved correct with the Blenheim) & this does take some of the gloss of what are otherwise becoming excellent products from Airfix.

[Mike]

Hornby have just confirmed by email that they've adjusted the tooling to fix the problem, and have ordered LOTS of spares for anyone that contacts them to request one. Phone them on 01843 233525 or email [email protected]

Here's the whole relevant part of the email, which I've been told is ok to post publically:

The canopy was designed to be super thin in line with what modellers prefer to see. There were some issues at manufacture – however by adjusting the tooling settings we have fixed the problem. In order to prevent delays in releasing the kit, we ordered plenty of spare parts and are sending them to everyone who requests one. Anyone with a cracked canopy should contact customer services on 01843 233525 [email protected]

[Mike]

Good post Mike.

People seem to have no patience these days... in our hobby, I thought that was the one thing we should all have lots of.

Thanks We are terrible at waiting for new releases and fixes to problems - perhaps we use up all our patience dealing with the minutae of our builds?

Trouble is Mike, my cynical post was in response to what now seems to me to be a fairly cynical attitude on the part of Airfix's management.

You're too cynical Keef I don't think there's a cynical attitude at all. Production difficulties happen, and they're making effort to sort it out, and learn as they go. You can't really ask for much more, as we're all fallible

[Caution Wake Turbulence]

With respect, Mike, that doesn't seem to address the issue of the distortion, nor really add much to the response they've been sending out previously. Or am I missing something? I haven't seen anything from Airfix that specifically addresses that issue.

Cheers,

Andrew

[Work In Progress]

My replacement canopy has no distortion. It seems implausible that I am the only person in that situation.

[noelh]

Airfix made a mistake and they are paying for it, but some of the reactions to Airfix's mistake are way out of proportion. If you really hate the kit because of the canopy,

That's a disproportionate reaction. Nobody hates this kit. Nobody has said they hate this kit.

But I do think I'm entitled to be irritated right now I have three unusable canopies and no other transparencies. The way things are going I'm likely to soon have another unusable canopy and I can only hope they send the other missing parts. If any of us buy any consumer product and find a fault we are entitled to a refund or replacement. What you don't expect is an equally faulty replacement or a failure to supply the parts at all.

That's poor customer service any way you cut it. It is not disproportionate to point the finger at this point. If it was just me it would be a case of 'so what'. But at this point it's clear virtually everyone who spent their money on this kit has had the same problem. But not a word from Airfix as to how or when they're going resolve it. Instead they seem to have kept the head down and rely on people posting to forums like this to defend them.

A simple press release or note on their website would suffice!

Edited August 12, 2014 by noelh

[keefr22]

You're too cynical Keef I don't think there's a cynical attitude at all. Production difficulties happen, and they're making effort to sort it out, and learn as they go. You can't really ask for much more, as we're all fallible

We'll have to disagree then Mike! I'm aware of production difficulties - I worked for a number of years in Production Control followed by a few more in QC. The difference with the company I worked for was that if they were aware of a production problem giving QC issues in a current release product then they wouldn't release a new product to market with the same (or very similar) problem - they'd sort it first! Airifx have now released a number of kits with the same or similar problems in clear parts - I've seen problems in Lancaster, Vampire, Lightning & Blenheim canopies personally & now read of similar ones in the new Superkit. So they're aware of the problems in one release, keep saying they're working to fix them, send out shoddy replacements that they know aren't any good - and then release a kit with a retail price close on £100 with the same problem & repeat the same 'customer service' all over again. and that's not cynical?!

I've said before that I will keep buying Airfix - they are about the only manufacturers kits I've bought this year - but I really do dislike their current attitude to 'customer satisfaction'.

[Edgar]

But at this point it's clear virtually everyone who spent their money on this kit has had the same problem. But not a word from Airfix as to how or when they're going resolve it. Instead they seem to have kept the head down and rely on people posting to forums like this to defend them.

A simple press release or note on their website would suffice!

Have you actually read post 63?

I waited until yesterday to report a duff canopy to Hornby: I've just had the following E-mail:-

"We have today despatched a canopy.

Very sorry you have experienced problems with the product A19002.

The problem with the Q sprue, is not common to all the kits.

The sprue feed was changed to eliminate this problem.

There is a very slight dimple in the canopy, we have been informed when product is completed

Will not be visible."

Edited August 13, 2014 by Edgar

[Caution Wake Turbulence]

That seems to be saying they haven't really fixed the distortion...(improved maybe?)... perhaps you can report back when you receive your replacement, Edgar?

Thanks,

Andrew

[Rabbit Leader]

I've just received my replacement canopy and like others here - no crack, however more distortions.

The sprue feed is exactly the same as the original, and I'm not convinced with the above comment that "the distortions will not be visible once completed".

They may not be visible to your mum, dad, son, daughter, cat, dog etc.. however your modelling mates eyes will be drawn to it like some type of cosmic ray.

And worst of all "I" will know its there.

I am not ranting - just stating what I have just received. I will wait until I read that this problem has been illuminated altogether or a AM replacement canopy hits the market.

Cheers.. Dave (oh... good news - just got an email to say that my missing Spitfire Clear sprue has been sent as well).

[cossack52]

reported my cracked canopy to humbrol;received an e mail this afternoon;it says my replacement canopy has a dimple,and its not possible to produce without the dimple,but it won't be visible on the finished model!how does that square with the humbrol statement that they've cured the problem and have ordered a whole lot of spares to send out to us typhoon purchasers?!!

Edited August 13, 2014 by cossack52

[Jimmy C]

I'd be interested to see the actual words used by Airfix in their email to you [cossack52] re: dimple in the replacement canopy; I believe a formal (written) admission of a product defect, with no proposed rectification, would effectively provide grounds for refund/compensation under the SoGA... I'm not sure if Airfix would want to open themselves up to such a potentially large and costly action but I stand to be corrected...

[andyrowe]

I'm with Keefr22 on this one. Here is the list of my Airfix kits that have 'flow' lines through the canopies/clear parts -

A02033 Spitfire Mk.22

A02062 Messerschmitt Bf 109E-7/Trop

A04053 Swordfish Mk.1

A02058 Vampire T.11

A08001 Lancaster BII

A03003 Harrier GR1

A04054 Lightning F.2A

A01010 Hurricane Mk.I

A05119 Spifire PR.XIX

A12007 Javelin FAW.9/9R

A09101 Lynx AH-7

And, of course, my 24th Tiffie clear parts have the same defects, even after 2 replacements. I have contacted Hornby Customer Care with a lengthy email about the problem (again) and have not had a reply. Surprise, surprise. Currently, I have not received any clear part replacements that were an improvement over the ones that I originally complained about.

[georgeusa]

Ummmm, just a little observation here. Andyrowe lists a considerable number of Airfix kits with clear parts/canopy problems. Others have mentioned the clear parts/canopy issue is not restricted to this kit. I didn't grow up on Airfix kits like most of the people here. In fact, I didn't really purchase my first Airfix kit until about 5 years ago. (Revell, Monogram, LIndberg, AMT, that's what I grew up with.) So I really don't have a history with them. The ones I have purchased, for the most part are okay. Okay fit, okay detail, okay shape, okay decals, just okay. I really don't have an expectation I will be blown away by the contents of an Airfix kit. My expectations are it will be okay. Here is where I am heading. When I buy a Mach II kit, I expect it will fit poorly, lots of bad words, lots of sanding, lots of filling. But, I expect it. It seems as if Airfix has had problems getting clear parts/canopy done and there have always been issues as to thickness, clarity, fit and distortion. If this is a trend and known ongoing issue with this company and has been for years/decades, why is everyone so surprised when this kit also has an issue? Just because it costs a lot? Look at Trumpeter. When you buy one of their kits, you expect ease of construction. Now, accuracy, that is another matter. With every new release from Trumpeter, the main issue is how accurate is it? Sometimes good, sometimes okay, sometimes, are they looking at the same aircraft I am?

I drive a large SUV. For the last 20 years I have always owned an SUV. I expect it to be able to carry a large amount of crap that I always seem to be packing in the back. When I buy a new one, I hope the gas mileage is decent. But, when it isn't and is just what is to be expected with an SUV, I don't go into a tizzy about how lousy the MPG is. So, as one who is fairly fresh to Airfix kits, my experience has been their clear parts/canopy is their weak link. Sometimes I get an aftermarket replacement, sometimes no. But, I have never opened one of their kits with the expectation to be wowed by how thin, clear and great their clear parts are. I just hope a coat of Future will make them useable.

I expect to get a replacement canopy from Airfix that will not have a crack. If it has less distortion, it will be a bonus. Heck, I've been in different aircraft, including military, where the canopies and windows were distorted and not clear. Overall, I still stand by my opinion this is a pretty good kit and well worth its cost. And, I'm enjoying building it.