SaintsPhil Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) My GB addiction continues! I wasn't going to join another this year but then the Mustang one came along, now I've fallen off the wagon I might as well carry on! I'm going to use the Academy kit in 1/48 Extra bits Markings to be reposted once I decide on a scheme! I won't be starting until week after next at the very earliest Phil Edited August 1, 2014 by SaintsPhil 2
Mozzy19 Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Good to see a different airforce featured. I built this kit out the box for the Korean War GB and thoroughly enjoyed it. Sean
Moggy Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Hi Saints Phil! Great taste in F-86 (Your Peruvian F-86!). However the FAP got their F-86 with the F-40 longer wing with the front flaps... May be converted with plastic card, saw and chutzpah Cheers Moggy - (digger of latin american aeroplanes)
SaintsPhil Posted July 31, 2014 Author Posted July 31, 2014 Hi Saints Phil! Great taste in F-86 (Your Peruvian F-86!). However the FAP got their F-86 with the F-40 longer wing with the front flaps... May be converted with plastic card, saw and chutzpah Cheers Moggy - (digger of latin american aeroplanes) You sure about that? Everything I've read states they we're ex USAF -25s!
Julien Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Yep my refs say -25's though one pic I have shows slatted wings. They did later on get some attrition replaces direct from Davis Monthan which may have been -40's but there is no record I can find of what they were. Julien
Panoz Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) They were F-86F-25 some of which were originally built with the early narrow wing with LE slats. Your kit has the 6-3 "hard" wing with the small fences. Can't find any photos of any with that type of wings but then again I don't have that many photos of FAP Sabres. First time I hear about them fitted with the -40 wing. More info to follow. Edited July 31, 2014 by Panoz 1
Panoz Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Yep my refs say -25's though one pic I have shows slatted wings. They did later on get some attrition replaces direct from Davis Monthan which may have been -40's but there is no record I can find of what they were. Julien True. There are no serial numbers for the later examples; not even in Latin American websites (believe me I've looked). In any case there is no record of them being subsequently fitted with the -40 wing(as many early F-86 were) and you can't really tell from photos... Just FYI F-86F-25s were originally built with the narrow slatted wing and then the 6-3 "hard" wing. Change over to the hard wing was with the 171st F-86F-25 (51-13341). Available serial numbers of FAP aircraft show at least 8 aircraft with the hard wing (51-13491, 13494/13495, 13499, 13501/13503, 13505). Unfortunately I don't a list showing relation of USAF to FAP serials. What do the decal instructions say?
Julien Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 In any case there is no record of them being subsequently fitted with the -40 wing(as many early F-86 were) and you can't really tell from photos... Exactly! Only photos I have seen have been the narrow slatted wing. Now saying that someone will come forward with a new pic!!
Panoz Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) I can't find any photos of "hard" wing Peruvian Sabres. So there is a possibility that were infact retrofitted with the F-40 wings before delivery. In any case your kit is no good. But if that's any consolation most of FAP F-86 models I've seen on the web have the "hard" wing. Edited July 31, 2014 by Panoz
SaintsPhil Posted July 31, 2014 Author Posted July 31, 2014 Ok thanks chaps! Looks like I might be on for a rethink then which is a shame! Am I right in thinking this kit is good for an RAF MK4?....
Panoz Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Ok thanks chaps! Looks like I might be on for a rethink then which is a shame! Am I right in thinking this kit is good for an RAF MK4?.... Yes. You can also do Greek, Turkish, Yugoslav, Italian and staying with Latin America Honduran.
SaintsPhil Posted July 31, 2014 Author Posted July 31, 2014 Hmmm decisions decisions, I think I have some RAF decals but some of those others sound interesting too....got a week off to decide! Thanks for setting me straight chaps!
Julien Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 You could just remove the fence and scribe the slat in. Ok won't be a narrow chord but most people wont know. Julien
gingerbob Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 If it is a question of spotting the -40 wing, there's some wing beyond the slat, which should be readily apparent from cooperative angles. If trying to discern between slatted "narrow" wing and slatted 6-3 wing, I think the best indication is where it hits the panel (ammo?) on the fuselage. bob 1
Panoz Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 If it is a question of spotting the -40 wing, there's some wing beyond the slat, which should be readily apparent from cooperative angles. If trying to discern between slatted "narrow" wing and slatted 6-3 wing, I think the best indication is where it hits the panel (ammo?) on the fuselage. bob Many thanks. So based on that it appears that FAP Sabres had the -40 wing.
Moggy Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) Photo-clues on F-40 wing: wingtip does not show the aileron (aileron does not stretch into the 12-inch plug). About the F- type and wing correlation: (Checked for facts in a few books on the subject ) Almost all countries that received (mostly second hand) F-86 from the US after 1954 had their wings replaced to the "export" wing of the F-40 type. That is a slatted 6-3 wing with a 12 inch tip extension. Jennings Heilig did a wonderful diagram with all the wing types; right now I can't find it! Peru, Argentina, Venezuela and Bolivia got second-hand, re-winged ex-USAF Sabres with the F-40 wing. I have the pictures to prove it Colombia bought six Canadair Mk.6 new and received three second-hand Spanish (via US MAP) with the slated wing. The only Latin American country to fly F-86 with the 6-3 hard wing was indeed Honduras; they bought ten Yugoslav CL-13 mk.4 (F-86E(M) themselves ex-RAF), exported in crates to the US, made ready to fly in Fort Lauderdale (Florida) under cover of the CIA and later flown to Honduras by "CIA contract pilots" - mercs... They did receive 3-4 more F-86F w/slated wings from Venezuela at a later date. Cheers, Moggy (still digging Latin American aviation) Edited August 1, 2014 by Moggy
SaintsPhil Posted August 1, 2014 Author Posted August 1, 2014 One thing I've learned it's always more complicated than you thought it was going to be! I'm thinking RAF sabre now, or to keep it simple maybe even the box scheme, I do quite fancy a NMF bird....
Biggles87 Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 You're very brave if you're going to step into the 'F-86 wing' minefield, if you build it straight out of the box it will be goof for ' The Huff' or an RAF Sabre Mk4 of you can find some decals.
Rabbit Leader Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 AFAIK, the RAF also had a combination of slatted and 6-3 Hard wing Sabres, so it is very vise to check your references as some squadrons used a combination of both or either type exclusively. Two excellent books are the Sabre by Duncan Curtis http://www.rafjever.org/duncansabre.htm and of course Cold War Shield Volume 2 by Roger Lindsay http://www.coldwarshield.co.uk/books/two.html Good luck .. Dave 1
Mozzy19 Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 There was quite a discussion about Sabre wings and RAF Sabres in general in this thread: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234938015-f-86f-30-to-raf-sabre-mk4/ Sean
SaintsPhil Posted August 1, 2014 Author Posted August 1, 2014 Just found some cutting edge decals for a Yugoslav machine, I think it's a gaudy yellow number, but I could use the roundels and make the numbers up for a standard machine. Can anyone confirm one with the correct wing?
Moggy Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 One thing I've learned it's always more complicated than you thought it was going to be! I'm thinking RAF sabre now, or to keep it simple maybe even the box scheme, I do quite fancy a NMF bird.... Hi SaintsPhil! Now I feel very silly - If I kept my counsel you'd have built a beautiful Peruvian F-86 and enjoyed it... Instead the only result from my advice was to put you off it ... Cheers, Moggy (the party-pooper...)
SaintsPhil Posted August 1, 2014 Author Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) Hi SaintsPhil! Now I feel very silly - If I kept my counsel you'd have built a beautiful Peruvian F-86 and enjoyed it... Instead the only result from my advice was to put you off it ... Cheers, Moggy (the party-pooper...) No you did the right thing, if I'd have got half way through and you'd have piped up I'd have never been happy with the model and probably never finished if! I'm not a sabre buff at all but I fancied building one. I can't get too excited by the USAF schemes and I was kindly donated some spare decals by a fellow BM member. I was trying not to buy any more decals but still keep it accurate! I think I have achieved that with the Yugoslav option....I hope... Edited August 1, 2014 by SaintsPhil 1
Panoz Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) The only Latin American country to fly F-86 with the 6-3 hard wing was indeed Honduras; they bought ten Yugoslav CL-13 mk.4 (F-86E(M) themselves ex-RAF), exported in crates to the US, made ready to fly in Fort Lauderdale (Florida) under cover of the CIA and later flown to Honduras by "CIA contract pilots" - mercs... They did receive 3-4 more F-86F w/slated wings from Venezuela at a later date. Actually serials indicate 10 aircraft delivered to Honduras (six from Yugoslavia plus four from Venezuela). Edit: I found these photos in my HDD from the old LAAHS site showing all surviving FAH Sabres when offered for sale in 1984. Apologies for the small size; that's how they appeared at the time. The best reference on the Sabre is Duncan Curtiss book for Crowood and although it has details on all export users it doesn't say what types of wings the aircraft operated by the various countries had. If there is a source that does so I'd be happy to know it. Edited August 1, 2014 by Panoz 1
Julien Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Actually serials indicate 10 aircraft delivered to Honduras (six from Yugoslavia plus four from Venezuela).Some refs I have say 8 from Yugoslavia and 2 from Venezuela. Venezuela also gave Honduras 4 x F-86K. The Sabres which were assembled in Florida were painted medium sea blue. Camo came later. Julien
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