Spitfire camouflage -again!

[AnonymousAA72]

Perhaps some will now understand why some of us have slight reservations about making definitive statements about AD233's colour scheme.

I'm sorry Edgar, I really don't want to upset you again, nor am I attempting to make you look foolish, but can I respectively point out that you have made definitive statements about AD233's colour scheme...

Considering it was taken by Charles Brown, no, it isn't, since he made aircraft photography, in colour and black and white, his life's work. The original can still be viewed in the RAF Museum library, and it's in Temperate Land (reversed,) plus odd replacement parts, not Day fighter Scheme. Plaistow Pictorial found the quality so good they made large prints (about 3' x 2') of it, and sold it in hundreds.Edgar

[occa]

Yes indeed, I've read through that thread again.......we're really covering old ground yet again and I dare say we'll be doing the same in four years as well! I've no reason to change my views of 4 years ago. There are just to many compelling arguments there and here. I can't for the life of me see any reason why the aircraft or parts of it would be painted in 'reversed' A scheme, and therefore cannot believe that Dark Earth is in that photo. But each to their own.......

I agree, that what appears like DE is actually Dark Slate Grey.

For me that Spit is in TSS colors, on the uppersides at least.

There has been a partial repaint in a lighter grey what could be Ocean Grey.

[AnonymousAA72]

I agree, that what appears like DE is actually Dark Slate Grey.

For me that Spit is in TSS colors, on the uppersides at least.

There has been a partial repaint in a lighter grey what could be Ocean Grey.

You could well be right, though I'd say the ocean Grey parts might be replacement parts...

[Super Aereo]

Why recur to the TSS as an explanation when contemporary eye witnesses mention two distinct shades of OG being in use? Please note that the DG (or what is being suggested as DSG) does not change in tone on the cowling, unlike the grey tone.

AD233 was part of Fighter Command, not Coastal Command after all.

Incidentally, the aircraft would appear to have an irregular dash of mustard colour on the starboard wing, which is probably gas paint and it is possibly repeated on the port wing.

[Andrew Jones]

From Bill Clark's post (#69):

That looks like TSS colours to me

That's what I appear to see , the cowling panels , both aelirons and a wing tip look like Ocean grey / Dark green and the rest of the aircraft EDSG / Dark Slate grey. There is a definate difference between the green shade on the cowling /aelirons and that on the rest of the Spitfire. This is just my opinion , I could be wrong and I've been wrong before, as to why a Spitfire would be painted in these shades , I've no idea, but this is what I appear to see in this photograph.

Andrew

[tempestfan]

as to why a Spitfire would be painted in these shades , I've no idea, but this is what I appear to see in this photograph.

Andrew

If the squadron was actually tasked with protecting the North Sea fishing fleet, this would have comprised of long overwater patrols over relatively deep waters, for which TSS probably would have been a much more suitable scheme than DFS.

[Super Aereo]

That's what I appear to see , the cowling panels , both aelirons and a wing tip look like Ocean grey / Dark green and the rest of the aircraft EDSG / Dark Slate grey. There is a definate difference between the green shade on the cowling /aelirons and that on the rest of the Spitfire. This is just my opinion , I could be wrong and I've been wrong before, as to why a Spitfire would be painted in these shades , I've no idea, but this is what I appear to see in this photograph.

Andrew

As hard as I look i don't see any difference in the green tone (the one I think is Dark Green) on ailerons and cowling.

If anything it seems to be following the official pattern quite closely.

The DSG in the TSS was lighter and greyer than DG and the use of TSS would also imply the use of Sky under surfaces, not MSG as visible in the photos.

Flavio

[Edgar]

but can I respectively point out that you have made definitive statements about AD233's colour scheme...

And can I, just as respectfully, point out that I was referring to an original print of the photograph, which I viewed in the RAF Museum's library many years ago, and which displayed certain colours, which I felt (and still feel) that I recognised.

Since that time, I've seen many reprints of it, some with the Kent countryside apparently covered in a blue mist, others with the fields covered by lush green vegetation (in early May 1942?) while others show recently-ploughed fields below, so you'll please indulge me when I don't jump on the experts' bandwagon, since I know that Brown took as much special care with getting the background right, as he did with the main subject.

Should I ever get the chance to see the original Kodachrome slide, and find that the interim negative (necessary in the 1950s days of colour printing) was incorrectly processed, I shall come on here, and pass on the information, since I'm far more interested in getting to the truth than scoring cheap points. Until then, I'll leave the guesswork to others.

[Seawinder]

As with so many of these debates, a lot of assumptions are being made.

In the 12/8 instructions, issued by Fighter Command, they say that "The change is commencing on 15 Aug 1941 with nos 10 11 and 12 Groups. The remaining Groups will change over in the following order of priority as supplies of dope become available 13 - 14 - 9 - 82 and 81 Groups." This seems to hint that only those first three Groups would have needed to do any mixing.

37 M.U.(Burtonwood) was in 41 Group, which gets no mention, so, did it, in fact, carry out the repaint, or did it actually happen when the aircraft arrived on-Squadron?

There has certainly been some sort of repaint work carried out, as evinced by the yellow leading edge, but there's also the thought that, around that time, the Squadron had been tasked with flying top cover for the North Sea fishing fleet.

Edgar.

P.S. This is scanned direct from the RAF Museum's book:-

I'm having a hard time seeing this photo as DG and any sort of gray (besides the previously mentioned replaced/repainted parts). However, if it is indeed DE/DG with the colors reversed, then what is the under surface color, clearly visible on the lower cowling? Certainly not Sky, which would be the expected color for TLS, reversed or not.

[Max Headroom]

I've convinced myself that it's Medium Sea Grey by using the squint at the screen for ages ethos.

Incidentally the shot of the Spits flying right to left (which looks like a still from a film?) appears to

Show the other aircraft in a similar scheme. Looking at their bases for 1940-41 they were 'near' the coast so could have had a maritime function so by extension of the theory 'could' have been painted TSS. I wonder if there are any records to suggest whether this was done?

Just curious

Trevor

[Graham Boak]

No, there's no suggestion I've seen that Fighter Command painted their aircraft in TSS whilst carrying out defensive patrols. Operation Bowery Spitfires on Malta, very probably. Blenheims on Channel Stop, most likely. Elsewhere, no. Not even the Hurricanes that took over Channel Stop when Stevenson ran out of Blenheim crews. Not even up in Orkney, which could be the likeliest place. If it did happen, then the likeliest candidates would be those Spitfire Mk.Vs that were retained on Northern bases as squadrons rotated out of Southern airfields, leaving their Mk.IXs behind. This would be later than the time for this picture.

I think that these different interpretations are simply due to different biases in the printing. I would say that the DG/mixed grey with additions is completely logical for the period, which is lacking from the DG/DE or TSS interpretations. Dark Green is an olive colour, which from at least some suppliers does fade browner, which does (I feel) answer Seawinder's comment. But not Edgar's. It would be interesting to have found yet another example of these exchanged colours, and yet again on an early Spitfire Mk.V. Just to get back to the original point of the thread - not that I'm against interesting diversions....

[AnonymousAA72]

And can I, just as respectfully, point out that I was referring to an original print of the photograph, which I viewed in the RAF Museum's library many years ago, and which displayed certain colours, which I felt (and still feel) that I recognised.

Since that time, I've seen many reprints of it, some with the Kent countryside apparently covered in a blue mist, others with the fields covered by lush green vegetation (in early May 1942?) while others show recently-ploughed fields below, so you'll please indulge me when I don't jump on the experts' bandwagon, since I know that Brown took as much special care with getting the background right, as he did with the main subject.

Should I ever get the chance to see the original Kodachrome slide, and find that the interim negative (necessary in the 1950s days of colour printing) was incorrectly processed, I shall come on here, and pass on the information, since I'm far more interested in getting to the truth than scoring cheap points. Until then, I'll leave the guesswork to others.

..but its still a definitive statement Edgar.

Despite this, I still value your input to this thread. I do appreciate the research you conduct and it is mostly very helpful. I just think its important to challenge these findings sometimes, and not to just accept them. We all view things differently and no one can be right all the time! And I'm really sorry that you find this 'scoring cheap points', that was never my objective ....but hey ho....

Edited August 6, 2014 by Bill Clark

[Max Headroom]

I was reading that recently, I'll dig it out........

Hi Bill!

Did you find the Ted Hooton article? I'm afraid my ''filing system' has failed me.

Trevor

[AnonymousAA72]

Hi Bill!

Did you find the Ted Hooton article? I'm afraid my ''filing system' has failed me.

Trevor

Yes, I did. It's SAM Vol. 5 No.2 Nov 1982. No mention of a 'reversed' or a 'c' or 'd' scheme. Ted's article is very informative, particularly regarding the common 'rule' regarding the application of the 'a' and 'b' scheme on alternating serials, and how that 'rule' was reversed!

"This was the standard 'shadow shading' of Dark Green and Dark Earth. There were two schemes: Type A and Type B ( a mirror image of Type A) which were normally alternated for aircraft coming off the production line. However, this process was subject to change"

Ted also describes the differences between the demarcation between green and brown on Castle Bromwich and Supermarine built aircraft, and goes into great detail on how different factories applied the fuselage roundels.

Well worth a read.

[AnonymousAA72]

No, there's no suggestion I've seen that Fighter Command painted their aircraft in TSS whilst carrying out defensive patrols. Operation Bowery Spitfires on Malta, very probably. Blenheims on Channel Stop, most likely. Elsewhere, no. Not even the Hurricanes that took over Channel Stop when Stevenson ran out of Blenheim crews. Not even up in Orkney, which could be the likeliest place. If it did happen, then the likeliest candidates would be those Spitfire Mk.Vs that were retained on Northern bases as squadrons rotated out of Southern airfields, leaving their Mk.IXs behind. This would be later than the time for this picture.

I think that these different interpretations are simply due to different biases in the printing. I would say that the DG/mixed grey with additions is completely logical for the period, which is lacking from the DG/DE or TSS interpretations. Dark Green is an olive colour, which from at least some suppliers does fade browner, which does (I feel) answer Seawinder's comment. But not Edgar's. It would be interesting to have found yet another example of these exchanged colours, and yet again on an early Spitfire Mk.V. Just to get back to the original point of the thread - not that I'm against interesting diversions....

It would be odd indeed if it was TSS, but I can see that the dark grey does look like EDSG. I think that maybe, just maybe, the Dark Green has indeed faded to an olive or lighter green, and if as originally painted, and with the 'mixed' grey being new , it appears darker by contrast and maybe shade as well.

I doubt that the green colour is, or was originally, anything other than Dark Green. The photo of the three aircraft together shows (I'll spare everyone by not posting it again here!) albeit not too clearly, what I think is the original presentation name 'West Borneo I" and the rank pennant. These would have been applied originally to the Dark Green painted areas. Incidentally in Neil Robinson's and Jon Freeman's Spitfire I to VI book, the caption says that the aircraft lost its presentation name when re painted in mixed grey!

This photo shows AD233 and the two others in the "A" scheme. Nothing reversed here I don't think.

[Dave Fleming]

I must admit I'm struggling to reconcile the two images as being anything other than DFS

Edited August 6, 2014 by Dave Fleming

[VoyTech]

And this is another Mk.V., photographed three months later, by the same man, using the same camera and film as AD233:-

AD233 was lost in May 1942

BL479 was photographed on 6 August 1943.

15 months not three between these two photos. What makes you think he used the same film?

And I don't think any serious researcher has ever claimed that BL479 in this series of shots is in correct DFS. The upper surface grey is much too pale.

Notably, when photographed by Charles Brown, BL479 was the personal mount of G/Cpt M. W. S. Robinson, the Station Commander at RAF Northolt. I wonder if he wanted his Spitfire to have this non-regulation colour, or was aware of some new AMO's we're not, or just didn't care.

[occa]

You could well be right, though I'd say the ocean Grey parts might be replacement parts...

Very likely especially visible on the upper engine cover which even has the proper DG besides the OG

[tempestfan]

In the Cold War section, someone has posted pics of a camouflaged Victor. While this of course proves nothing, there's a weathered panel on the tail (replacement ?) that has a very olivish DG markedly different from its surroundings. While this may be a case of Apples and Oranges, the effect shown is not that far removed from some of the versions of the pic above.

[Edgar]

What makes you think he used the same film?

Because he said so.

And I don't think any serious researcher has ever claimed that BL479 in this series of shots is in correct DFS. The upper surface grey is much too pale.

It's to be hoped that no serious researcher would claim anything else, without evidence. That is a really contentious statement to make, since it would have been painted with the synthetic DTD517 paint, which was known to fade quite markedly, as noted in a post-war report on why Navy schemes went over to DTD772 paints.

[occa]

I have found a close up of one of the supposedly ZD coded Spitfires on Etienne's photo stream:

It's certainly not in DG / DE:

Here's one more obviously from the same session:

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7322466856_a9382701fa_o.jpg

Compare it with how TSS looks here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/8270787@N07/8171442204/sizes/o/

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2895/13782342633_c30e540fe3_o.jpg

[brewerjerry]

Hi

Trying to place my mind into that of a photographer.

Would i not be looking for something different, out of the norm to catch my eye?

How about a spitfire not painted the same as all the rest ?

Now that looks interesting .

Just my thoughts this morning as i am waking up.

Cheers

Jerry

[cmatthewbacon]

...so no one thinks that the fact that the space under the cowlings is likely to be rather hotter than the space behind the firewall could have caused any difference in the rate and way in which the paint on the outside weathered and changed colour...?

bestest,

M.

[Mitch K]

...so no one thinks that the fact that the space under the cowlings is likely to be rather hotter than the space behind the firewall could have caused any difference in the rate and way in which the paint on the outside weathered and changed colour...?

bestest,

M.

It MIGHT. Heat affects paint, so yes, I wouldn't rule it out.

[VoyTech]

it would have been painted with the synthetic DTD517 paint, which was known to fade quite markedly

We're looking at a shiny, pristine Spitfire flown by a RAF Station Commander.

The paint had faded so badly that the upper surface grey is virtually indistinguishable from the bottom surface Medium Sea Grey?

And, assuming it did, G/Cpt Robinson's reaction was "never mind the hue, just polish it up for me"?