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Basilisk

Hurricane in Light Earth and Light Green - Is this possible?

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Sorry, one more thing. Edgar, are you sure about this:Have a look at the picture Steven posted. The camouflage pattern is aligned perfectly across the control surfaces, so surely the whole wing was painted at the same time.

You could not assemble the ailerons to the wings, and then paint them, since the balance was absolutely critical (same with the rudder,) and had to be done with the paint on and dry. When black/white undersides were replaced by Sky, units were told to wash off the previous paint, and spray no more than two coats in its place, due to the balance; Fighter Command refused to paint Hurricane rudders in red/white/blue stripes, since they'd found it ruined the balance, and that's why painting fin-flashes became standard.

The photo is of K5083, the Hurricane prototype, after camouflaging, so I'd expect that Hawker's would surely have made sure that the airframe was in perfect condition. It's possible to see darker edges to the green paint, where the pattern has been set out, then filled in. Later, of course, the matching was achieved by the "stencil mats," so fiercely opposed in some quarters.

Edgar

Edited by Edgar

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Research is more that just reading a piece of paper from the time, and accepting it as being Gospel.

As so often, Bill, in your rush to make me look foolish, you have things back-to-front; my piece was about how the factories were ordered to do things. What happened after they left the storage M.U., or factory, was nothing to do with them, and commanding officers were known for "doing their own thing."

Of course, we know your view of 40-year-old memories, but in 1975 one ex-erk told me how a newly-arrived C.O. ordered everything to be painted, including the insides of the fuel tanks of their Oxfords. In one day, they lost several aircraft (the one he was in had both engines stop as they landed,) and the C.O. was never seen again.

My research involves more than just reading many "pieces of paper," it includes talking to ex-servicemen, and putting it all together in order to try to make sense of it all; I do not rely on just a single source. From reading Ted's work, it's obvious that he had access to Supermarine records, and you hold this up as a shining example of research (which it is.) When I do the same, though, I get sarcasm and sneering comments (thankfully only from some quarters.)

The supreme irony is that I knew Ted well, and he was always willing to pass on what he'd found out; I decided that, like him, I would try to discover things, so that I could also pass them on to modellers, and, as long as I get more thanks than brickbats, that will continue.

Edited by Edgar

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As so often, Bill, in your rush to make me look foolish, you have things back-to-front; my piece was about how the factories were ordered to do things. What happened after they left the storage M.U., or factory, was nothing to do with them, and commanding officers were known for "doing their own thing."

Of course, we know your view of 40-year-old memories, but in 1975 one ex-erk told me how a newly-arrived C.O. ordered everything to be painted, including the insides of the fuel tanks of their Oxfords. In one day, they lost several aircraft (the one he was in had both engines stop as they landed,) and the C.O. was never seen again.

My research involves more than just reading many "pieces of paper," it includes talking to ex-servicemen, and putting it all together in order to try to make sense of it all; I do not rely on just a single source. From reading Ted's work, it's obvious that he had access to Supermarine records, and you hold this up as a shining example of research (which it is.) When I do the same, though, I get sarcasm and sneering comments (thankfully only from some quarters.)

The supreme irony is that I knew Ted well, and he was always willing to pass on what he'd found out; I decided that, like him, I would try to discover things, so that I could also pass them on to modellers, and, as long as I get more thanks than brickbats, that will continue.

"And it escapes me why some modellers researchers get so bad-tempered, when researchers modellers wish to disagree with their point of view, after all how you/they paint models is entirely up to you/them, and nobody in this thread is dictating terms, but simply differing in their views."

The thing is Edgar its not a matter of trying to make you look foolish, because believe it or not, accuracy is important to me too. Research is important, but its important to realise that people may not always share ones findings and will push and question it further.

The reference you make to '40 year old anecdotal evidence' is I assume regarding Hunter FGA9's using small flaps. I queried that because I wanted to know how that was possible. A simple enough question. What were the mechanics of that? How was it achieved? Did it happen? Did the person make a mistake? Was he right?. This is indeed "Trying to make sense of it all". Now I know that this person was no longer around to verify or otherwise. But maybe others on here did know! Your trite answer at the time did you no service, nor did it help provide an answer. Anecdotal 'evidence' is what it is. Take it as face value and then you have to decide on how that information is used.

Now at the risk of this otherwise absorbing thread getting pulled, I'll leave others to continue here. I've had my say.

....I have some 'Mixed grey"' to mix............which probably happened as you say as ..."commanding officers were known for "doing their own thing."

Now that good enough for me!!!

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Basilisk: The patterns align on the different aircraft parts because they align on the drawings, and professional painters are capable of working to drawings to this level of accuracy.

It may or may not be relevant that Hawkers are a company known to have used mats for the painting patterns - aligning these would have become second nature after the first few hundred.

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Giorgio, thanks for the F-4 explanation !

Sometimes it's difficult to get it right even if you have examples of a painted surface in front of you.

Two particularly thorny questions are Deep Sky on RAF Fortress I's and the underside colour of AVG Hawk 87's. Leaving the worm cans firmly closed, examples of both have been produced to acclaims of "This Is The Right Colour", only to be told that immersion in a bog for the former and the elements in the latter have degraded the 'correctness' thereof. Whether this is right, or a case of someone obstinately refusing the evidence is not for this forum, but goes to show that sometimes a poor kit basher like me gets a headache!

Good discussion this.

Trevor

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The reference you make to '40 year old anecdotal evidence' is I assume regarding Hunter FGA9's using small flaps.

Right incident, wrong reason (and this applies to many, not just one); when I relate something that happened around 1975, that is (as near as) 40 years ago, so, if my informant's memory can't be trusted, neither, by inference, can mine, and that's why I tend to get just a mite exasperated by such a crass comment.

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Two particularly thorny questions are Deep Sky on RAF Fortress I's

1_zpsa22e255f.jpg

During a fairly heated discussion another officer says that the paint is the same as used on Spitfires by Benson; the file also includes a sample (kept in an envelope,) which has been tested and is a match for PRU Blue.

Edgar

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That's enough. It's either close the thread, or start banging heads together. All combatants old enough to know better... that's what's really exasperating :fraidnot:

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