Tora Tora Tora

[oldgit]

Chaps,

Has anyone ever attempted to build the Tora Tora Tora Movie replica IJN aircraft as subjects, i.e the AT6 Texan converted into an Mitsubishi A6M2 Type 21 replica, the AT-6/BT-13 cross replicating the Nakajima B5N ’Kate’ and the stretched & modified BT-13 Valiant that produced the Aichi D3A ‘Val’? I know that there is quite a lot of scratch & conversion work involved. Has anyone tried?

Can anyone recommend suitable AT-6 & BT-13 kits in 1/48^th scale please? Would anyone know if 1/48^th kits are presently available of the actual B5N & D3A, or which A6M2 type 21 might be best in that scale?

Looking at the mods below, I wonder if a simpler alternative approach might be to add AT-6 & BT-13 parts to ‘Zeke’, ‘Val’ & ‘Kate’ kits, rather than trying to modify the AT-6s and BT-13s. What do you think?

Here’s what I’ve found out about the actual aircraft involved in the film:

Work began building the hybrid AT-6, BT13 & AT-6/BT-13 replicas in early August, 1968 - 30 in total – 9 x Vals, 9 x Kates & 12 x Zekes.

The AT-6 were modified to duplicate the Japanese Mitsubishi A6M2, type 21. The aircraft were given a false lower rudder extension, modified cowling, cooling gills, cockpit canopy, large fore & aft wing root fairings, rounded wing tips, new main undercarriage doors, upper decking, spinners, fake arrester hooks, aux fuel tanks & dummy guns. Some had geared R-1430 engines fitted, with three blade props while others retained their original engines and two blade props. Some even retained the second seat under the fuselage & canopy modifications. I understand that some aircraft were also fitted with BT13 tail wheels. The ‘Zekes’ were mainly painted light grey-green with black cowlings & red stripes.

The BT-13 were modified to duplicate the B5N ‘Kate’ torpedo bomber by using AT-6 Texan centre fuselages, with a 16 inch extension forward of the cockpit & behind the engine, another 7ft extension aft of the cockpit & a BT-13 tail assembly. Fin & rudder shape was slightly modified; the canopy was re-built, with a rear folding section and rear gun to represent the 3 seat B5N. Large fore & aft wing root fairings & rounded wing tips were added. Many of the replica ‘Kates’ had geared R-1430 engines replacing the original R-1340’s. Dummy torpedoes on working release gear were added. The ‘Kates’ were mostly pained dark green with black cowlings. One aircraft had red & yellow horizontal tail stripes – I assume to represent

Mitso Fuchida’s aircraft.

The BT-13 were modified to duplicate the Aichi 99 ‘Val’ dive bomber with 600hp R-1340 engines instead of the original R-985s, the forward fuselage lengthening similar to the Kate, new canopy, fibreglass dorsal tail fillet, dummy dive brakes, additional fibreglass undercarriage spats & dummy bombs on working release gear. The ‘Vals’ were mainly painted light grey-green with black cowlings.

I think that the BT-13 main-planes were extended around 4ft also, on both the ‘Kate’ & ‘Val’ replicas.

Nineteen AT-6 Texans were modified to various degrees in Japan. Two were rebuilt as A6M2 type 21 ‘Zekes’ and 5 as B5N ‘Kates’, in a similar manner to the American replicas. The Japanese film ‘Zekes’ were painted silver. No D3A ‘Val’ replicas were built in Japan and I think these are absent from the carrier take off scenes. Standard AT-6 aircraft painted dark green with red Hinomaru markings are noticeable in background carrier footage.

In addition to the 30 aircraft ‘IJN’ fleet, Five B17F & B17G’s, Two P40E’s, a PBY5A and a PT-17 were also used in the flying sequences. 27 replica P40’s were constructed for non-flying work, some of which had Alison engines to enable them to taxi. I think all were destroyed during the filming. Four or five PBY hulks were also destroyed during filming, along with a partial B25 rigged with a strange single fin and at least one static replica OS2U Kingfisher floatplane.

Great Film, done the old fashioned way. Real aeroplanes and no CGI. Those replicas must have been ‘interesting’ to fly!

If anyone can add to this, add/correct any details or advise on the modelling aspect please do so. In the meantime, what colour ‘dark green’ ‘silver’ and ‘light grey-green’ would you suggest as correct for these aircraft?

Thanks everyone, as always,

Tim

[gingerbob]

I started converting a Monogram AT-6 to the Tora Zero once upon a time. Lone Star has done a conversion, though at present he's indicating out of production. Worth an e-mail to Mike, though.

Forgot: Mike's (re)doing a BT-13, and you can also get one from Planet (both resin).

bob

Edited July 3, 2014 by gingerbob

[avro683]

In terms of the actual aircraft involved, Hasegawa and Fujimi both produced Vals, the former being by far the best IMO. Hasegawa also did a good Kate and Tamiya Zeros. Accurate Miniatures did a good early P40 and Revell do a B17. I'm not certain as to the availability of each kit though.

[Don McIntyre]

You sure Accurate Miniatures did a P-40, Avro?

For the AT-6 you're pretty much going to use either the Monogram or Occidental kits. IMO, the Occidental kit is a near clone of the Monogram kit.

I think the only BT-13 is/was a limited production or resin kit from one of the Eastern European companies, maybe Planet Models? It would be a very expensive proposition, I think for doing a conversion.

Revell for the B-17F (although I think to be prototypically correct you'd want a B-17E not the available B-17F). If you want to do a B-17E there's the Paragon conversion, but they tend to go for $$$$ on eBay.

Tamiya's Zeros are somewhat older than the very nice (newer) Hasegawa kits, but still good kits in their own right.

For an early model P-40 (P-40B/C) you've got the Hobbycraft or Academy kits (same plastic) and the much maligned Trumpeter kit. The (very old) Monogram kit is generally felt to have the most accurate shape of the P-40B/C models.

For a P-40E you've got Revell, Otaki, Hasegawa with Hasegawa's probably being the best, but the Revell and Otaki kits are, IMHO better than might be expected. The only real problem I've got with the Otaki kit is the cockpit.

Can't answer your paint question, but I really enjoyed your synopsis of the aircraft mods and usage.

OBTW, many of those Kate, Zero and Val conversions are still flying on the airshow circuit today.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Don McIntyre

[Troy Smith]

Can anyone recommend suitable AT-6 & BT-13 kits in 1/48^th scale please? Would anyone know if 1/48^th kits are presently available of the actual B5N & D3A, or which A6M2 type 21 might be best in that scale?

If anyone can add to this, add/correct any details or advise on the modelling aspect please do so. In the meantime, what colour ‘dark green’ ‘silver’ and ‘light grey-green’ would you suggest as correct for these aircraft?

Thanks everyone, as always,

Tim

Paint? as in the film or the real thing?

There are details online, the Zero grey is quite a subtle colour, with olive and yellow tints. It's too late for me to go hunting up the links. Nick Millman is the chap who knows.

have a seacrh on his blog

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/

Kits, consensus is Hasegawa for the Zero, Val and Kate.

The Val was reboxed by Revell of Germany a few years ago, and may easier/cheaper to find than the Hase boxing, and has better decals.

Hasegawa have released A LOT of Zero boxings, and quite a few of the Kate.

this list what is in what

http://modelingmadness.com/splfeat/kr/has48a.htm

Many of the kits will have Hasegawa's famous 'ivory' white decals and are not great.

Aeromaster and Eagle Strike did sheets of Pearl Harbour decals, OOP but there are probably other available, or ask for leftovers here.

Probably more relevant to the Kate, as a specific Pearl Harbour boxing maybe harder to find, and some are bombs, some are torpedo, but if the decals are going to need replacing then you might just want to find the base kit and get new decals.

The Tamiya A6M2 is old, but really still decent, and can be got cheap.

Nichimo did a Kate, and Fujimi a Val, there may be some info on http://www.aviationofjapan.com/ again

they are both pretty old, but I don't know if they can scrub up well.

HTH

T

[Steve N]

If you're going to build models of the AT-6/BT-13 hybrids, it really wouldn't do you any good to use parts from actual Zeroes, Vals and Kates. While the replicas look OK, when parked next to the real thing there isn't a lot of resemblance. The replica Vals in particular look nothing like an Aichi D3A, being at least 25% smaller and lacking the Val's distinctive broad, elliptical wing. The only 1/48 BT-13 I'm aware of is an old Vac-form kit. I don't recall the manufacturer.

Here's an article I stumbled across in an old magazine a few years ago that details the conversions. The T-6s used were actually ex-RCAF Harvards.

Cheers!

Steve

Edited July 4, 2014 by Steve N

[oldgit]

Thanks for the great response everyone.

I have that article Steve, but thank you anyway - very thoughtful. As for paint, I was thinking of the colours used for the film work, rather than authentic period colours. It will be interesting to see how far 'off' the film aircraft were compared to the actual colours and markings. Can anyone offer an opinion there?

Doing a bit of digging, I've noticed that Revell have done a couple of boxings of 1/48th scale AT-6 Texans - 85-5251 and 04516. Are these two different kits or the same one reboxed? Likewise, there seem to be two Revell P40E's - 04566 & 4319. Does anyone know their pedigree? (I know they should be P40B's historically. but the movie used the E model).

Finally, I beleive that Nichimo did at least a B5N Kate in 1/48th. Does anyone know if they did a D3A Val or an A6M2 type 21? Were they reasonable kits?

Thanks again,

Tim

[Panoz]

Doing a bit of digging, I've noticed that Revell have done a couple of boxings of 1/48th scale AT-6 Texans - 85-5251 and 04516. Are these two different kits or the same one reboxed? Likewise, there seem to be two Revell P40E's - 04566 & 4319. Does anyone know their pedigree? (I know they should be P40B's historically. but the movie used the E model).

Finally, I beleive that Nichimo did at least a B5N Kate in 1/48th. Does anyone know if they did a D3A Val or an A6M2 type 21? Were they reasonable kits?

Thanks again,

Tim

Re Revell T-6:

The basic kit is the same. The only difference is that kit 04516 has an extra small sprue with two gun pods for the French armed Tomcat variant and an ADF antenna for a postwar USAF version.

The 04566 P-40E kit is an updated version of the original release 4319 with weighted tires etc...(The basic kit is unchanged raised panel lines et al)

Fujimi did a D3A Val which is a nice if rather dated kit. Ditto for the Nichimo B5N.

[Don McIntyre]

Nichimo did the Kate, but I don't think they did a Val or Zero. Your best bet for the Val is (IMHO) the Hasegawa D3A1. The Fujimi isn't bad, but I think that Hasegawa is just that much nicer.

For an early model Zero, I don't think you can go wrong with either the Tamiya (altho it may be a Model 22 and not 21, but I'm not sure) or the Hasegawa kit. The Hasegawa is a newer kit, but, IMHO, the Tamiya still holds its own pretty well.

[k5054nz]

I’m rather late but I’m gathering information to model a Tora Zero in 1/48. I built one from the Academy 1/72 kit as a teenager: https://modelingmadness.com/review/mod/yatest6m.htm

 

Does anyone know what type the source of the three-blade T-6-Zero propellers was?

[Wulfman]

Thanks for the interesting information on the Tora Tora Tora conversations.  As for the colours I would have to see the film

yet again. I agree with you about using real aeroplanes, in the CG I version of Pearl Harbour, they had Spitfire mk.Vs

in the Battle of Britain and Bf-109Es intercepting B-17s. They can’t even be bothered to do a bit of research.

By the way Tamiya have just re-released their old 1/48 Type 21 Zero for £10.99 a go. 

 

Wulfman

 

[Work In Progress]

On 12/11/2019 at 5:59 AM, k5054nz said:

I’m rather late but I’m gathering information to model a Tora Zero in 1/48. I built one from the Academy 1/72 kit as a teenager: https://modelingmadness.com/review/mod/yatest6m.htm

 

Does anyone know what type the source of the three-blade T-6-Zero propellers was?

They were the props that all the T-6 variants really should have had, and would have had without some short-sighted cost-cutting. It was the same prop as you would see on a Wirraway, so much more effective at transmitting the engine power to the air, and quieter, than the nasty little toothpick on the direct-drive T-6.

 

Obviously being a much larger prop with an extra blade it needed the geared down version of the R-1340 engine. The main visual difference of this is a gearbox casing  with front=to=rear runs along it, as seen here on a T-6 converted to the geared engine

and here on a Wirraway

 

The prop is a fairly ordinary 10 foot diameter Hamilton Standard which, in the case of the Wirraways, was licence-built by de Havilland. (dH made a lot of licence-built Ham Standards of various specs from 1935 onwards.)

Edited December 12, 2019 by Work In Progress

[Graham Boak]

There are always trade-offs, and whereas that last bit of performance isn't that vital to a trainer, easier maintenance is.  Versions of the NA16 family that did require higher performance did have geared engines and 3-blade props.

[Work In Progress]

You can train people in aeroplanes with all kinds of performance characteristics but for something supposed to be the advanced trainer, the equivalent of today's Hawk, the last step before getting into a Hurricane or Spitfire, it would have helped if the T-6 were not really embarrasingly short of climb performance and sustained turn. It has something between 550 and 600 hp in most versions, burns the fuel for that power, but flies like a 350 hp aeroplane.

 

The RAF has several times had to re-learn the lesson that time-to-climb for upper air work is a potent driver of productivity for the training fleet. That is important if your main shortage is not production of fighters, but production of fighter pilots, which was sometimes the case in the Harvard era.

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Work In Progress

[k5054nz]

On 12/13/2019 at 6:35 AM, Work In Progress said:

The prop is a fairly ordinary 10 foot diameter Hamilton Standard which, in the case of the Wirraways, was licence-built by de Havilland. (dH made a lot of licence-built Ham Standards of various specs from 1935 onwards.)

Thanks for that. I had read they used DHC Otter props - would that be the same unit?

[Work In Progress]

6 hours ago, k5054nz said:

Thanks for that. I had read they used DHC Otter props - would that be the same unit?

It's basically the same geared engine and the Otter uses a constant-speed three blade Ham Standard so chances are it's the same prop or at least extremely similar. I haven't checked the diameter of a standard Otter prop but I doubt it's different.

 

Be aware that there are two types of these props: with and without counterweights at the hub . The counterweight versions went out of production a long time ago, and the more modern type is the Hydromatic. But when you have a prop spinner on the aeroplane, which the Zero lookalikes did during the filming of Tora Toro Tora, you can't really see the difference. 

[JPuente54]

@oldgit you could ask the studio, 20th Century fox whether they still have the paint detail(s) used in the movie. While studios are infamous/famous for tossing out that sort of thing; many times it is stored away. One never knows. There are also some fan sites that may be able to help or possibly point to people or companies that may know. AMC and/or TCM cable stations may be able to mention who might have the information needed.

Joe

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Have you considered contacting the commemorative air force ? They own and operate a lot of the original aircraft used in the 1970’s movies. There is a Tora Tora Tora wing I think in Arizona and they may have a lot of the maintenance records of the aircraft in question. 
 

http://www.toratoratora.com/

 

Dennis

Edited December 16, 2019 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Work In Progress]

Surely if the aim is to reproduce the colours audiences perceived on film the easiest way is to buy the film - it's available for peanuts second hand on both DVD and bluray via the usual retailers, or for streaming on Amazon Prime - and just mix to match whatever you see.  To be honest I have never seen any green in the light grey of the fake Zeros