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All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here


Sean_M

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7 hours ago, Tom R said:

Is there any book that comes even close to distilling it all and helping the sort of advanced but not really top-line modeller.

No.    

The site search is not very good,  but you adding Britmodeller into a google search term works well.

Or just ask,  given the sprawl of this you may want to start a new thread though.

7 hours ago, Tom R said:

I have about 8-10 Hurricane books but it is quite tedious to trawl through them looking for answers to modeller-type questions as they are not laid out in that form.

The Hurricane problem is most of what you want to know is fine detail,  the only thing close to this is the Wingleader book, which does a good job, the Mk.I in detail is very confusing,  as there are a load of changes, and the changer overs are quite fuzzy  IIRC it misses the mid 1940 Hawker builds with fabric wings as well.

 

7 hours ago, Tom R said:

There are some modeller guide books like the "Airmark" series and some good Brett Green books on the Spitfire and Mustang and also some Kagero books. I am surprised there is not one on the Hurricane.

I'm not, AFAIK most of this detail thrashing out has been done on here.    The advantage is many contributors, the disadvantage is threads like this,  now at page 97.

Another problem, Hurricanes are simple simple simple COMPLEX,  and it's the small details that trip up people.  They are not obvious, and you need to know what to look for and the variations.

We are still turning up fragments and question even now, like the small windows and what were they used for on the last couple of pages.  This was down to @Tigerausfb spotting this and asking about it.

 

7 hours ago, Tom R said:

In the absence of such book I will get the Richard Franks one although I have seen some rather disparaging comments about some of his earlier books.

Do you mean Airframe and Miniature Vol.16?    It won't help. 

While on a casual inspection is looks great,  in large part due to good printing, lots of pics , what looks to be a useful variant break down etc,  where is all goes wrong is he doesn't actually know much about the subject, despite having done the SAM Datafile,   the A&M book doesn't really add much to that,  I only have a PDF of the Datafile, as it's not very useful and I have never found a used copy cheap enough.  

 

One thing, they  have not discovered Britmodeller,  as a much missing has been on here for years.  

 

The problems is it's wrong in some way or other maybe a third of the time,  the variant isometrics look impressive unless you know what is missing,  as well as confusing,  as they show lots of one offs along with main variants.

Examples

No mention on tropical vents.

No through breakdown of Props and spinners,  in particular spinners.

Does not understand that a Merlin XX needs a bigger carb intake, and seems puzzled

Does not understand the Mk. IID and Mk.IV, so no wing drawings, description of added armour, there is a near comedy moment when the armoured windscreen is mentioned with puzzlement.  

No understanding of Canadian production

No detail on interior colours. 

Many incorrectly captioned photos.  etc etc.

 

As they don't understand the subject, the kit reviews are wordy, but pretty worthless.  No real description on faults,  or how to fix them. 

 

The profiles are rehashed from a 2007 book, and vary from OK to utter fantasy, and suitably lacking in actual useful detail so you can know what too look for in photos...

 

As you might have gathered I'm not a fan!   I got mine in a sale, and was not impressed.  My error list is on a now not functioning laptop, and I going through the book usually gets me very cross and/or depressed in about 5 minutes so making a list is an exercise in frustration.

 

If you have not found them on here, these are worth a read and bookmarking, as AFAIK these details are not in books.

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235128469-arma-hobby-148th-hurricane-iic-optional-parts-description-spinners-cannon-barrels-tailwheels-tropical-vents/

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235005804-hurricane-p3886-uniqe-fabric-wing/page/2/#elControls_3735801_menu

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235087855-hurricane-mkiv-radiator-guard-another-lost-detail/

 

But there are more.   Hence my interest given as "Hurricane data collation"  .....

 

HTH

 

 

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Thanks for the help both of you. Franks book crossed off list to buy, Wingleader book added.

I suppose if I had more time I could print off every useful britmodeller article and make it into a book!🙃

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21 minutes ago, wmcgill said:

Formation-keeping lamps control, #33 in the March 1940 Hurricane Mk.I Pilot's Notes.

Fantastic!  Thank for clearing up that  detail.  

Again, @Bigos  @GrzeM @Wojtek Bulhak

 

I'll @Work In Progress as this was part of the debate, and it was there in the notes.   

 

2 hours ago, Tom R said:

I suppose if I had more time I could print off every useful britmodeller article and make it into a book!🙃

You can just bookmark the threads.

 

What maybe simpler is just to start a thread to ask for clarification,  but the main areas of confusion for most Hurricane subjects is in the props and spinners thread, and the one on alternate parts in the Arma kit, as it covers what they are, and where you are likely to see them.  Those 2 cover most poorly documented detail areas.   

Older kits don't give you options anyway.

 

The trickier areas are the Mk.I, especially early on, and the mid 1940 fabric wing, the Wingleader book does a good job overall on that,   the IID/IV,  which are fairly rare, about 300 Mk.IID and 600 Mk. IV out of 15,000, and some Canadian quirks, and Soviet modifications.  After that you have Se Hurricanes,  Tac R and PR, which are poorly documented anyway,  Met Flight use and then one off, nearly all have been discussed here at points.

if you have not already seen it

Hawker%20Hurricane%20Camo%20&%20Marks_Pa

scanned here

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/Hawker-Hurricane

 

Only covers NW Europe, but a lot covers other theatres as well, in particular note the drawing on page 19,  which shows the factory marking positions,  a very common glitch I see on Hurricane models is the position of upper wing roundels, which are often just too far outboard, and the dimension for where the edges of the camo pattern should be.

THis on page 2 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234963507-all-the-hurricane-questions-you-want-to-ask-here/page/2/#elControls_1682406_menu

 

covers internal colours.  

 

The cockpit remained basically the same,  with just a few added controls, mostly added later for radio, and armament additions. 

 

HTH

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So is it just photo quality that the light bulb is not always visible when the oval is present, or was a blank plate fixed in place when the formation-keeping lamps were not required and eventually discontinued from use altogether?

 

60f99840b5c0ab022423e58d_Royal_Air_Force

 

60f998426734a702083bd88d_Hawker-Hurrican

 

60f9983a97d0b9ffba27e298_Hawker-Hurrican

 

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3 minutes ago, JackG said:

or was a blank plate fixed in place

Likely just painted over in the pic of AE-Q /Z5054. I can't see the need for a blank plate, even if damaged, could easily be sealed with doped fabric.

Good question though.

 

10 minutes ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

For comment.  http://www.airhistory.org.uk/Hurricane/home.html  Version 1, a few disclaimers and mark definitions to come.

wow, just wow.    Stunning, needs a separate announcement, not burying here!  Thank you.

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22 hours ago, wmcgill said:

Formation-keeping lamps control, #33 in the March 1940 Hurricane Mk.I Pilot's Notes.

 

Superb! Thanks very much, sorted that point out very nicely. Also thanks to everyone elses efforts in throwing some light on something I was in the dark about.

 

Andrew

Edited by Tigerausfb
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Is that a Hurricane Construction Number painted on the bottom side of the elevator?  

 

Do not recall too many war time photos of Hurricanes showing this on the underside of the elevator... Any more samples?

 

Lastly 41H/138801 ? or 41H/135801 ? So what aircraft is it?  Some known C/Ns here https://www.rafcommands.com/database...&qcntry=&qt=FN with V7497 being 41H-136172

20240416020926-4db8bd91.jpg

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It has the look of an RAF Vocabulary of Stores Reference Number to me.

 

Section 41H/135801 could be the reference number for a Hurricane starboard elevator. If you look carefully, the tailplane also has a similar number on it something like 41H/150037 just forward of the missing square panel.

 

The letters 'CX' under the number on the elevator denotes the doping scheme 'Cellon X'.

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On 4/16/2024 at 7:26 AM, Paul Lucas said:

It has the look of an RAF Vocabulary of Stores Reference Number to me.

 

Section 41H/135801 could be the reference number for a Hurricane starboard elevator. If you look carefully, the tailplane also has a similar number on it something like 41H/150037 just forward of the missing square panel.

 

The letters 'CX' under the number on the elevator denotes the doping scheme 'Cellon X'.

Hi, I believe 41H is Hawkers manufacturer ID, used from the 1930s through to Hunter (and beyond?). 41H/197654 is another example on a Hurricane rudder. Assume for ordering spares you'd have your AP1086 or such like with Manufacturer/Aircraft Model (26AF)/ and then sub-sections for fuselage, wing etc etc

 

Andrew

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On 11/04/2024 at 08:57, wmcgill said:

Formation-keeping lamps control, #33 in the March 1940 Hurricane Mk.I Pilot's Notes.

spacer.png

 

Following on from the posts for the station keeping lights, I decided to see if I could find when these may have been introduced. There is very limited photographic evidence showing when the station keeping lights were introduced on to the Hurricane.

 

Photos of Hurricanes from the first (L series) and second (N series) Hawker production blocks do not show the presence of these lights.

 

The first batch in the third Hawker production block had serials P3265 to P3279. I can not find photos of any of these planes showing the panels with the light.

 

The second batch from the third Hawker production block had serials P3300 to P3324. A photo of Hurricane P3308, built in early March 1940, seems to show no light present. Hurricane P3320, built in mid-March, crashed on 28 August 1940, and was rebuilt. Photos of the crashed P3320 does not reveal whether it had the light, but the rebuilt P3320 does show the presence of the light. Assuming the aircraft was rebuilt to its original spec, it looks like the station keeping light was introduced in March 1940, somewhere between P3308 and P3320, on the Hawker production line. 

 

The first batch from the first Gloster production block had serials P2535 to P2584. I can not find photos of any of these planes showing the panels with the light.

 

The second batch from the first Gloster production block had serials P2614 to P2653. Hurricane P2638, built in early February 1940, has the station keeping lights. Hurricane P2722, built 16 March, in the fourth batch of the first Gloster production block, has the light. The station keeping light may have been introduced earlier on the Gloster production line, in February 1940.

 

It may be worth noting that the Spitfire modifications list introduces these lights in March 1940.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Question: Hurricane in 'France' 1940, white/black painted wing undersides, Tropical filter and wing tanks. Has anyone seen that combination before?

 

Thanks - Andrew

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4 hours ago, Tigerausfb said:

Question: Hurricane in 'France' 1940, white/black painted wing undersides, Tropical filter and wing tanks. Has anyone seen that combination before?

 

Thanks - Andrew

 

According to Wikipedia 

 

"In June 1940, the first Hurricane Mk I "Tropical" versions appeared. These featured a Vokes air filter in a large "chin" fairing under the engine cowling. Many of these aircraft were ferried to North Africa and Malta via France"

 

Don't know how true that is, but it is possible that if one was photographed in transit before the French surrender then it's possible.

 

No doubt someone with more info will chime in @Troy Smith .

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2 hours ago, MilneBay said:

Don't know how true that is, but it is possible that if one was photographed in transit before the French surrender then it's possible.

Possibly P2644, on ferry to Malta and abandoned damaged at Marignane on 8th June 1940.

Shores, Cull and Malizia, Malta: the Hurricane years 1940-41, Grub Street, photos on page 13.

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Posted (edited)
On 05/05/2024 at 01:57, Tigerausfb said:

Question: Hurricane in 'France' 1940, white/black painted wing undersides, Tropical filter and wing tanks. Has anyone seen that combination before?

 

Thanks - Andrew

yes, the one that landed in France mentioned below was extensively photographed by German 'tourists'  and progressively more souvenired as well

On 05/05/2024 at 06:03, MilneBay said:

 

According to Wikipedia 

 

"In June 1940, the first Hurricane Mk I "Tropical" versions appeared. These featured a Vokes air filter in a large "chin" fairing under the engine cowling. Many of these aircraft were ferried to North Africa and Malta via France"

 

Don't know how true that is, but it is possible that if one was photographed in transit before the French surrender then it's possible.

 

No doubt someone with more info will chime in @Troy Smith .

 

On 05/05/2024 at 08:56, ClaudioN said:

Possibly P2644, on ferry to Malta and abandoned damaged at Marignane on 8th June 1940.

Shores, Cull and Malizia, Malta: the Hurricane years 1940-41, Grub Street, photos on page 13.

 

very well known Hurricane P2644, many others photos of that aircraft are known as well. The aircraft crash-landed at Marseilles-Marignane at 8.06.1940 when ferried to Malta. Pilot Officer Harry Arthur Robin Prowse (42358) of 4 FPP Ferry Pilots Pool left with a Middle-East-bound flight (6 Hurricanes e.g. P2641, P2645, P2614) on the first stage of the journey to El Aouina, Tunis. They calling at Tangmere to refuel before heading for Rennesin southern France, then Toulouse and Marseilles-Marignane, France for a final refualling stop before crossing the Mediterranean. Prowse crash-landed at Marseilles-Marignane. He ran into a filled-in bomb crater and its port oleo snapped off, causing the Hurricane to swing to starboard before tipping onto its nose. External fixed tanks use for this transfer flight"

 

post-613-1187952269.jpg

 

possibly

"this aircraft is likely to be Flg Off J.C.Smyth's P2626, which was abandoned at Ussel on the 19th June 1940 on the way to Malta. A photo in Malta: The Hurricane Years shows it standing on its nose after a failed attempt at take-off from the muddy field."

 

post-1-0-08246200-1365878041.jpg

 

post-1-0-60038800-1348427834.jpg

 

post-1-0-46308100-1348427838.jpg

 

post-1-0-91277600-1348427832.jpg

 

 

 

I saw another one being auctioned on ebay recently,  I'm pretty sure there are more.

 

HTH

Edited by Troy Smith
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Posted (edited)

Thanks all. That's the one Troy, not seen those before (BTW I think your PM inbox is full). Having been a collector of WW2 photos for many years, they often leave you with questions!  I was aware of the six Hurricanes and the Blenheim transiting to Southern France, must have been a nervy journey. Point here is they crashed by themselves (the one abandoned Marignane is a long way from home, Marseilles airport isn't it?). The photos posted above look more like the rolling hills around Limoges/Clermont-Ferrand.  I'd also seen Hurricanes with tropical filters and white/Night undersides attributed to being in Crete before.  


So what intrigued me is the back of the photo which says 'abgesch.Durch Uffz. XXXXXX I.R.5 1940' or in long hand 'abgeschossenes Durch Unteroffizer XXXX Infantrie.Regiment 5 1940.' Shot down by an Uffz. from Infantrie Regt. 5 1940 . I.R.5 (mot) was part of the 2nd Infantrie Division and fought in Fall Gelb. Seller says photo came from an album from someone who served in Panzergruppe 2. which formed out of Panzer Group Guderian post Fall Gelb/Fall Rot in November 1940. Then they transferred to Russia for 'Barbarossa'. So the possibility it was taken in France was high.

 

So looks like a tall story on the back of that photo. 'Du hast es abgeschossen, oder? Wirklich? Pinky-Versprechen?'

 

Andrew

 

spacer.png

 

Andrew

Edited by Tigerausfb
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The others didn't crash by themselves, or at all.  As above, the aircraft was abandoned at Ussel, not Marignane.  Marseilles was in Southern France and so wouldn't have been occupied and plundered in this way.  Ussel is in central France - I presume outside of Vichy France but someone else will have to confirm that.

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Thanks I took that point. Ussel is between Limoges and Clermont-Ferrand which is why I mentioned those cities if that wasn't clear enough.. And the rolling hills thereabouts,. Marignane is flat. I read from Masosns book that two crashed in whatever form you may like to take that. 

 

Andrew

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22 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The others didn't crash by themselves, or at all.  As above, the aircraft was abandoned at Ussel, not Marignane.  Marseilles was in Southern France and so wouldn't have been occupied and plundered in this way.  Ussel is in central France - I presume outside of Vichy France but someone else will have to confirm that.

 

21 hours ago, Tigerausfb said:

Thanks I took that point. Ussel is between Limoges and Clermont-Ferrand which is why I mentioned those cities if that wasn't clear enough.. And the rolling hills thereabouts,. Marignane is flat. I read from Masosns book that two crashed in whatever form you may like to take that. 

 

Andrew

 

From a Polish researcher.

"very well known Hurricane P2644, many others photos of that aircraft are known as well. The aircraft crash-landed at Marseilles-Marignane at 8.06.1940 when ferried to Malta. Pilot Officer Harry Arthur Robin Prowse (42358) of 4 FPP Ferry Pilots Pool left with a Middle-East-bound flight (6 Hurricanes e.g. P2641, P2645, P2614) on the first stage of the journey to El Aouina, Tunis. They calling at Tangmere to refuel before heading for Rennesin southern France, then Toulouse and Marseilles-Marignane, France for a final refuelling stop before crossing the Mediterranean. Prowse crash-landed at Marseilles-Marignane. He ran into a filled-in bomb crater and its port oleo snapped off, causing the Hurricane to swing to starboard before tipping onto its nose. External fixed tanks use for this transfer flight"

 

 

 

 

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