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All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here


Sean_M

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It's the wing mirror of the truck. However I'm not familiar with the hole/duct exit above the letter E, perhaps I need to look at more photos of this area.

Funny what you don't notice until it's pointed out

hurricane_mk1_l1592_10_of_26.jpg

Looks very similar to the other holes in the cowling. It's there on the Mk II as well.

I'll have a look in the manual later.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Is there any way to find out if a particular livery is applicable to the current airfix 1/72 mold?

yes...it'll have fabric wings ;)

Sorry, more precisely, it's generally thought that about 600 Hurricanes were built with fabric wings, most are in the L**** [*= any number] series.

It's been stated some from the N**** serialed batch have fabric wings, I've not seen any photographic proof of this.

http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

Block 1, First Hawker Produced Block
Serial Range L1547 - L2146 600 Aircraft
Built by Hawker Aircraft Ltd., of Kingston and Brooklands, to specification 15/36 under contract No. 527112/36. The first 430 aircraft were manufactured with fabric covered wings; the remaining 170 with metal covered wings, some aircraft later re-fitted with metal wings at Maintenance Units within the R.A.F. Aircraft deliveries commenced on the 15th December, 1937, and were completed on 6th October, 1939. L1547 was first flown on 12th October, 1937.
Block 2, Second Hawker Produced Block
Serial Range N2318 - N2367 (50), N2380 - N2409 (30), N2422 - N2441 (20), N2453 - N2502 (50), N2520 - N2559 (40), N2582 - N2631 (50), N2645 - N2674 (30), N2700 - N2729 (30) - Total 300
Built by Hawker Aircraft Limited, Kingston and Brooklands, to Contract No. 751458/38. Aircraft powered by Rolls-Royce Merlin III engines driving Rotol or De-Havilland three blade propellers. Aircraft deliveries commenced on the 29th September, 1939 and were completed on the 1st May, 1940. The average rate of production was one-two aircraft per day. Most aircraft fought with R.A.F. squadrons in Battle of France, and Battle of Britain. Numerous aircraft were later converted to Sea Hurricane IA, and to Mk. IIA. Twelve aircraft were shipped to Yugoslavia, these aircraft were replaced on R.A.F. contract, some aircraft were tropicalised and dispatched to the Middle East late in 1940. Airframes Up to N2422 were completed with fabric covered wings and from airframe N2423 with metal covered wings.

Best bet is a photo, though it's not always possible to tell.

In short, fabric winged options are RAF - Pre war, phoney war/Battle of France, and a few in the Battle of Britain, though the new standard planes went to operational squadrons, with many of the surviving fabric wing planes sent to Training units and C category squadrons. i know of two still fabric winged planes in training command in 1942.

some Finnish and most Yugoslav and Belgian planes were fabric winged.

Do you need to know what the details too look for fabric winged?

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There are a lot of photos and a few transfer sets available, but if you mean is there a specific serial before which all were like the kit and after which all different, then no.

The first point you have to look for on an aircraft is the wing - it is known which was the first aircraft fitted with a metal wing but not which aircraft immediately following had which wing, nor which with the fabric wing were rewinged - other than specific reference such as a photograph. The position of the landing light differs on the two wings.

The second point is the propeller: twin, 3-blade DH variable pitch or 3-blade Rotol constant speed. Again, you have to rely upon photographs for which aircraft had which - and at what time.

The third point is the venturi providing vacuum for the night flying instruments - this was replaced by a power offtake mounted at the lower right front of the engine.

The fourth point is the pitot probe - the earlier twin probe mounting was replaced by a neater single tube installation (probe Mk.1 to Mk.II?)

The fifth point is the armoured windscreen

The sixth point is the pilot armour mounted behind the seat.

The seventh point is that the tubular aerial was replaced by a tapered one.

The eighth point is the absence of the strake under the rear fuselage on early aircraft, with a shorter rudder.. (Added thanks to Tim post 212 below).

I hope I haven't forgotten anything more.

None of these changes came in at the same time. What did appear early is a change from a smooth one-piece nose ring to a two-piece unit with two small bulges. These were to permit the mounting of two power offtakes on the Merlin III - one for the vacuum pump and one for the constant speed unit for the Rotol's propeller pitch. This ring and the Merlin III appeared long before the two pieces of equipment were available. The kit provides the two-piece nose, so requires very minor fettling for an early machine built with a Merlin II.

Having been beaten to the punch, I should add that aircraft built with fabric wings did fight in the Battle of Britain, though they may almost all have been rewinged. At least one certainly did , the first 2-cannon experimental aircraft (see other threads on this).

Edited by Graham Boak
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Excellent summary Graham. I though I'd find out what the OP wanted before doing typing that out!

Okay so BoB is highly unlikely it'll be fabric winged, that's all I needed to know

There are documented examples, but they are rare.

there is famous photo of a damaged 615 Sq hurricane at Croydon, and there is L1592, the Science Museum Hurricane.

While failing to find the image I was looking for, I noticed this

Hurri-Damage.jpg

Described

A Hurricane of 615 Squadron badly damaged at Kenley on the 18th of August 1940

what is of note is the damaged wing root panel, looking very much like the blown in fabric on fuselage, this panel was fabric covered on fabric winged planes, so this looks to be a rare example of a fabric winged plane re winged with metal wings.

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17-7-39 it was reported that the first "stressed-skin wing" Hurricane was about to be delivered and would be L2027.

19-9-39 the last 35 sets of fabric wings had just been delivered, for production, Hawker's had 15 sets for repair, and were expecting a further (estimated) 15 sets for repair. At that time Gloster's were already producing 15 sets of metal-covered wings per week.

The main drawback, for the fabric-winged Hurricane, was its maximum diving speed of 380 m.p.h., while the metal-winged airframe was 450.

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There's no kit quite as good as the current Airfix. Second best is the Hasegawa, but be careful to get one of the short-run specials not the standard one miscaptioned as a "late Hurricane Mk.Ib" - it's a Mk.II length. There's the old Airfix Mk.I, with too small an engine cowling and somewhat cruder. The Sword/AZ Mk.I kit is also fabric winged. Sweet do a nice Mk.I Hurricane but in 1/144 - choice of fabric or metal wings. I think all the rest are Mk.II/IV and not so good, in their various ways.

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The Airfix fabric wing is easily converted (updated?) to a metal wing. I did one to the point of starting the kit, but stopped short once the wing mods were done. I considered cloning it in resin, but it was so easy the cost and time really don't justify cloning.

Tim

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Can I ask a Hurricane question please? Apologies if its been answered before but here goes

The recent Airfix 1/72 Hurricane has markings for an early Hurricane 1 L1584 of 111 Sqn during the visit to France in July 1938. The kit gives the under-surface paint scheme as the black/silver white one but all the profiles I have seen of those machines in older publications show the Hurricanes at the time of the visit in July 38 with the 111 unit marking painted on the side as having the earlier all aluminium/silver under-surface and not the later black/silver/white scheme.

In have trawled for photographs and have seen plenty of the squadrons Hurricanes with all silver under-surfaces without the 111 unit markings but any photos with the unit markings do not show the underside of the aircraft.

Anyone able to offer an opinion on whether the profiles are right or Airfix? I assume Airfix must have some info to depart from the profiles in SAM Publications Datafile, Francis Masons Hurricane book, the old Profile Publication to name a few.

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Can I ask a Hurricane question please? Apologies if its been answered before but here goes

The recent Airfix 1/72 Hurricane has markings for an early Hurricane 1 L1584 of 111 Sqn during the visit to France in July 1938. The kit gives the under-surface paint scheme as the black/silver white one but all the profiles I have seen of those machines in older publications show the Hurricanes at the time of the visit in July 38 with the 111 unit marking painted on the side as having the earlier all aluminium/silver under-surface and not the later black/silver/white scheme.

In have trawled for photographs and have seen plenty of the squadrons Hurricanes with all silver under-surfaces without the 111 unit markings but any photos with the unit markings do not show the underside of the aircraft.

Anyone able to offer an opinion on whether the profiles are right or Airfix? I assume Airfix must have some info to depart from the profiles in SAM Publications Datafile, Francis Masons Hurricane book, the old Profile Publication to name a few.

The old Ducimus booklet has this info on page 53, here's a crop of the relevant bits

Huricane_undersides_BWA_1938.png

so I'd say L1584 is as Airfix say as L1582 is.

HTH

T

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The old Ducimus booklet has this info on page 53, here's a crop of the relevant bits

Huricane_undersides_BWA_1938.png

so I'd say L1584 is as Airfix say as L1582 is.

HTH

T

Thanks Troy

thats very helpful but raises a further question on another Hurricane with 111.

Sqn Ldr Gillan's machine was L1555 which is outside the given serial range in the Ducimus publication (though the given range is not cast in stone) and there are photos of L1555 in flight showing an all aluminium underside. It was also known to be present on the visit to France when the side 111 markings were applied. His machine had all white 111 markings. That makes me wonder if it was originally the black/aluminium/white scheme and then re-painted or was always aluminium and was never in the three tone scheme. I can't imagine a squadron like 111 having machines painted in differing colours and not uniform across the unit though. Nor can I imagine that it was delivered with an aluminium finish, then painted three tone within months and then again re-painted back a few months later - even by 111 !

FWIW the Classic Airframes version of L1555 has it with an all aluminium underside with the 111 white side markings as well as without.

John

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Thanks Troy

thats very helpful but raises a further question on another Hurricane with 111.

Sqn Ldr Gillan's machine was L1555 which is outside the given serial range in the Ducimus publication (though the given range is not cast in stone) and there are photos of L1555 in flight showing an all aluminium underside. It was also known to be present on the visit to France when the side 111 markings were applied. His machine had all white 111 markings. That makes me wonder if it was originally the black/aluminium/white scheme and then re-painted or was always aluminium and was never in the three tone scheme. I can't imagine a squadron like 111 having machines painted in differing colours and not uniform across the unit though. Nor can I imagine that it was delivered with an aluminium finish, then painted three tone within months and then again re-painted back a few months later - even by 111 !

FWIW the Classic Airframes version of L1555 has it with an all aluminium underside with the 111 white side markings as well as without.

John

Hi John

In short, I don't know. Good question.

If they were experimental undersides perhaps even 111 kept them for comparison purposes, or just if you get planes in a new scheme, but not orders to repaint the older ones, what do you do?

The all white 111 markings I'm sure came before. ....ok, here

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234967537-fabric-wing-hurricane-options/

note post #16 and my response in #18

hopefully someone will know more on this.

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Hi John,

According to the Air Ministry documentation which I have copies of here, the Airfix instructions are correct in that L1584 had the experimental three colour undersurfaces as shown in the photo posted by Troy of L1582.

L1584 was within the batch of Hurricanes selected for large scale service trials of these undersurface colours, the first deliveries of these particular aircraft to those squadrons selected to receive them began circa late March/early April 1938.

HTH

Dave

Edited by tango98
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