All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, dogsbody said:

This is that the internal framing of the canopy and windscreen on a Hurricane was painted black. Is this right or has my old brain mis-connection neurons again?

the 3 unrestored airframes

 

Finnish Hurricane.  

 

Z5252

https://lend-lease.net/articles-en/hawker-hurricane-iib-trop-z5252/

 

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/DETAILSITE/UK/hurricane/z2768/hurri_z2768.htm

 

 

HTH

 

[StevSmar]

On 8/29/2020 at 4:33 PM, Troy Smith said:

the 3 unrestored airframes...

... http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/DETAILSITE/UK/hurricane/z2768/hurri_z2768.htm

 

Wouldn't the Canada Air and Space Museums Hurricane, and the RAF Museums Hurricane also count as un-restored Hurricanes? (not sure of the intent of the post of course).

 

Neat link to Z2768, many pictures I've never seen before. Wonder if it's haunted...

[StevSmar]

On 8/18/2020 at 10:28 AM, Dave Fleming said:

... So the panel between the wing joint and the fuselage fairing on aircraft was metal rather than fabric? Do we know when this was introduced?... 

I believe the center section was always metal covered. I did have a look at some photos of the prototype and couldn't tell if this was the case for it, hope someone can post a higher resolution version of the prototype Hurricanes center section. Intriguing...

 

I believe the scalloping that was referred to in "Selwyn's post 28" is scalloping of the metal, not fabric. To my eyes it always looks like they should have used thicker metal in the early Hurricanes...

The rear center section ribs are beefier in the MkII's center sections, so I think this is trying to rectify this. I don't have any evidence of the metal covering being thicker, just the ribs being beefier.

[Troy Smith]

24 minutes ago, StevSmar said:

Wouldn't the Canada Air and Space Museums Hurricane,

Don't knowq. That's your derpartment  

24 minutes ago, StevSmar said:

and the RAF Museums Hurricane also count as un-restored Hurricanes?

No. If P2617 was still in Training Command markings, maybe.

The cockpit has been crudely repainted in Grey Green at some point,  causing much confusion.  The rest of the interior is still in the original aluminium dope though.  P2617 was in bit in 2016, and there are lots of photos showing this.   I had a good look in March 2016.

24 minutes ago, StevSmar said:

 

(not sure of the intent of the post of course).

 

Aircraft still in original factory finish, in the case, internally.

8 minutes ago, StevSmar said:

I believe the center section was always metal covered. I did have a look at some photos of the prototype and couldn't tell if this was the case for it, hope someone can post a higher resolution version of the prototype Hurricanes center section. Intriguing...

The prototype varied, I assume it had the fabric covered, the original fabric wing planes had fabric sections at the rear of the wing. 

helpfully shown here with the fabric blown off.  This detail is noted on the Bentley plans as well.

Hurricane17sqdamaged_zps9106b20e by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

also seen here, where the fabric parts are showing  up as being a lighter tone

 

and now you know what too look for, also visible here, again, note the lighter tone of the fanric outer wing panels, and the root panel

]Hurricane by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

HTH

[Dave Fleming]

On some early Hurricanes, the strip join over the outer and inner wing sections appears to be a lighter shade than the surrounding camouflage.

What are people's thoughts on this?

[MilneBay]

22 minutes ago, Dave Fleming said:

On some early Hurricanes, the strip join over the outer and inner wing sections appears to be a lighter shade than the surrounding camouflage.

What are people's thoughts on this?

 That's intrigued me for years - I've put it down to an effect of light catching it at a slightly different angle to the rest of the wing. Could well be wrong though. 

[Troy Smith]

On 03/09/2020 at 09:53, Dave Fleming said:

On some early Hurricanes, the strip join over the outer and inner wing sections appears to be a lighter shade than the surrounding camouflage.

What are people's thoughts on this?

the joint strip has not been painted at this point. Hurricanes were painted as bits, then assembled.

note also the masking tape still on the canopy

 

I forgot to post this before, but I ran across a fascinating piece of wartime art

"Assembling a Hawker Hurricane

Elsie Dalton Hewland (1901–1979)

Manchester Art Gallery"

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/assembling-a-hawker-hurricane-205190

 

what is of note is this superbly detailed, note the visible serials

She also painted this

Assembling Hawker Hurricane Aircraft: Swinging the Compasses and Making Test Flights

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/assembling-hawker-hurricane-aircraft-swinging-the-compasses-and-making-test-flights-7172 on two of the planes.

Which, (as I just looked this up and hadn't noticed) show unpainted wing joint strips, which I think should be written as primered, but not top coated

HTH

 

PS, in the top pic of MW336, note immediately obvious are the as yet primred grey, (or unpainted?)  tailplane fairings,  more noticeable on the colour pic of KZ295 here. 

Also visible is the canopy masking.

HurriKZ295tropproductionline by losethekibble, on Flickr

[Dave Fleming]

Lovely paintings. So often these sort of things are ignored by modellers, but the artists were painting what they saw and it captures details that B+W photos don't - even if the coloursa are 'off' we can interpolate what the artist saw. For example (A little off topic perhaps) this one from the IWM collection shows that the RN operated Vought Kingfishers in USN colors and Temperate Sea Scheme. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/21848

 

back to the joint strips - what colour do we think? They look brown/buff in the paintings, so Zinc chromate yellow (Too dull?)? Hawker's buff primer/interior shade?

[Dave Fleming]

New Wingleader Hurricane I book dropped through the postbox this morning. A quick scan through and I'm most impressed. Lots of clear photos (Some familiar ones, but printed much more clearly than in other places and BIG) and explanations of the differences between variants - a page with all the spinner variants for example. Possibly deserves it's own thread in Books later!

[JackG]

Received my copy of the publication today, and it answers the recent question about the pilot armour.  The head section was 9mm thick, while the mid and lower are each 4mm thick

 

regards,

Jack

[Max Headroom]

Browsing the interwebby I came across this

 

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/blog/plt-off-john-bisdee-diary-20th-july-1940/

 

That tail flash looks very narrow. Probably an ‘in field’ repaint. Any thoughts? 
 

Trevor

[Troy Smith]

4 minutes ago, Max Headroom said:

Probably an ‘in field’ repaint. Any thoughts? 

anything prior to May 1940 had no fin flash, so when the order came for fin flashes and yellow rings,  variations occurred. 

as seen on the top left of this, 

"variable, 5,6 or 7 inch wide stripes"

 

 

regarding the page you linked, the image is this one

P3154

see

http://www.kirkbymoorside.info/day-hurricane-crashed-near-kirkbymoorside/

[StevSmar]

On 9/2/2020 at 6:12 PM, Troy Smith said:

(1) Don't knowq. That's your derpartment  ...

 

(2) No. If P2617 was still in Training Command markings, maybe.

The cockpit has been crudely repainted in Grey Green at some point,  causing much confusion.  The rest of the interior is still in the original aluminium dope though.  P2617 was in bit in 2016, and there are lots of photos showing this.   I had a good look in March 2016...
 

(3) The prototype varied, I assume it had the fabric covered, the original fabric wing planes had fabric sections at the rear of the wing. 

helpfully shown here with the fabric blown off.  This detail is noted on the Bentley plans as well...

1) I spoke with Canada's Aviation and Space Museums curator maybe 20 years ago and was advised that their Hurricane had been delivered straight from the airforce. This suggests it's original internally.

 

2) That's great to know about P2617, I didn't know it had been repainted internally at some time. It sure does create confusion.

3) Wow, I'd never realized that! I had a look at more photos of the prototype and it does look like it confirms the rear ribs of the center section are fabric covered (on the top for sure, can't tell about the underside). I do have a drawing for the center section rear rib and I was wondering why it had the type of profile that was used in fabric covered areas. This drawing is referenced in the Mk1 center section drawing that was fully metal covered, suggesting that they just replaced the fabric with metal without re-designing the supporting rib. It seems like this is another case of the pressures of war preventing redesign unless it was absolutely necessary.

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by StevSmar
(Using an iPad is a pain sometimes)

[Troy Smith]

2 minutes ago, StevSmar said:

 

Hi Steve

reply came up blank.   Also, if you are not commenting on a specific image, can you edit out the images quoted, just saves thread clutter.

cheers

T

[StevSmar]

On 9/4/2020 at 6:15 AM, Dave Fleming said:

New Wingleader Hurricane I book dropped through the postbox this morning. A quick scan through and I'm most impressed.

I’m also impressed! Lots of photos that I’ve not seen before!

 

I’m glad to have added it to my collection.

[Troy Smith]

9 hours ago, StevSmar said:

I spoke with Canada's Aviation and Space Museums curator maybe 20 years ago and was advised that their Hurricane had been delivered straight from the airforce. This suggests it's original internally.

What are the internal colours?

In a post on here,  Chris @dogsbody  posted images of internals of a couple of Canadian built Hurricanes, and they showed finish consistent with Hawkers/Gloster up until some point in 1942, aluminium doped framework and internals.  from what can be seen in photos the 8th Hawker batch started using Grey Green for all internals, and underside colour for wheel wells.

(I'll edit in the link in a mo)

back on page 2

 

not the best organised post though.

 

[dnl42]

I'm looking for detail on the antenna wire entry into the fuselage for the tapered mast. From what I can see, the wire is a seized loop at the rudder mast running forward to the stand-off on the mast and then down to the fuselage.

 

I've been unable to find any detail on how the wire enters the fuselage. Is the entry on the center-line or perhaps slightly to port? Is there an insulator? Just through a hole in the fabric?

[Troy Smith]

13 hours ago, dnl42 said:

I'm looking for detail on the antenna wire entry into the fuselage for the tapered mast. From what I can see, the wire is a seized loop at the rudder mast running forward to the stand-off on the mast and then down to the fuselage.

 

I've been unable to find any detail on how the wire enters the fuselage. Is the entry on the center-line or perhaps slightly to port? Is there an insulator? Just through a hole in the fabric?

 

Note how the wire runs through the tag. 

 

From here

 

The Shuttleworth Sea Hurricane, apart from the colours,  hook, catapult spools, and headrest, and the aerial under the starboard wing (modern addition)  it's a superb reference  to the airframe for any mid production Mk.I,  and  as about 90% of the Mk.II is the same as Mk.I, it's very good for the general airframe 'feel',  especially the outside photos.

 

 

[StevSmar]

Regarding the internal colours of RCAF 5584 in CASM (Canada's Aviation and Space Museum).

On 9/12/2020 at 6:36 PM, Troy Smith said:

...What are the internal colours?...

 

RCAF 5584 was taken on charge around November 1942. Around April 1946 it was selected for preservation and it moved around various RCAF stations before moving moving to RCAF Rockcliffe in Feb 1964, the site which has become CASM.

 

Here's some poor photos of it's interior, which to me looks like silver:

 

 

These photos don't have a date on them, though they are contained in a series of photos on CASM's image bank which were taken at RCAF Rockcliffe.

I'm looking for a colour version of the aircrafts interior, which I'll post if I find.

[StevSmar]

Isn't it safe to assume that the interior framework of all Hurricanes was silver?

Here's a photo of MkIV KZ191, which seems to show remnants of it's silver cockpit:

 

This is the interior of P2617 at Hendon, which shows the crappy repainting in green:

It looks like some parts of the framework around fittings look are still silver.

[StevSmar]

Does anyone have a close up photo of the top rear center section of L1592 at the Kensington Science Museum, that shows fabric covering on this?

 

This shows the underside of the center section was metal covered:

 

 

[Troy Smith]

30 minutes ago, StevSmar said:

Does anyone have a close up photo of the top rear center section of L1592 at the Kensington Science Museum, that shows fabric covering on this?

due to it position, tricky

the pic does enlarge

L1592 was in training command until 1944 IIRC, and was then restored by Hawker's in the 50's.

from

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/mark_hayward/hurricane_mk1_l1592/

 

30 minutes ago, StevSmar said:

This shows the underside of the center section was metal covered:

I have never heard it was anything else.  

 

HTH

[Troy Smith]

46 minutes ago, StevSmar said:

Isn't it safe to assume that the interior framework of all Hurricanes was silver?

no.

From the 8th Hawker batch on, seems Grey Green came in.  I need to shut down and sleep now, but 

again

 

note the pics of the Hurricane IId at the VVS test centre,

 

Grey Green, this is a KX*** serial

 

and KZ295 on the production line, 

Grey Green

 

from late war production, either the KZ*** above,  series, or form the MW*** ones

 Grey Green,  aluminium paint has a shiny sheen

probably this series

 

LF744

 

LB611

 

 

More later

[StevSmar]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

... KZ295 on the production line, 

Grey Green

 

from late war production, either the KZ*** above,  series, or form the MW*** ones

Grey Green,  aluminium paint has a shiny sheen...

...More later...

I see what you mean about the "sheen" of the paint.

The colours in the picture of KZ291 seem off, almost too vivid, so I think it would be risky to use this photo to say the colour is a Grey Green. You'd really need to see an actual part.

 

In the photo I posted of KZ191, the colour to me looks a lot closer to silver than a grey green.

[Troy Smith]

12 hours ago, StevSmar said:

Here's a photo of MkIV KZ191, which seems to show remnants of it's silver cockpit:

 

 

9 hours ago, StevSmar said:

In the photo I posted of KZ191, the colour to me looks a lot closer to silver than a grey green.

yes, but photo looks to have been taken with a flash, and KZ191 was on a dump for years,  in Israel, 

I went on an image hunt, this turned up, posted under "fair use" 

Looks to ambient light, it does enlarge,   nothing look like aluminium paint here,  look at the firewall and engine bearers.

 

the lack of the fuel tank covers is also of interest.

another shot found online, again posted under "fair use"  

again, will enlarge, note the firewall is not aluminium, and the main spar is either rusty or Grey Green.

 

But, yes, some close up photos would really help!