All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

[Graham Boak]

It is true of the biplanes of the "World's Greatest Flying Club" era, but (as hinted at) stopped being done when times got serious.  The metal monoplanes were not kept polished to a bright shine.

[Troy Smith]

15 hours ago, dogsbody said:

On the fabric-winged Hurricane, would the undersurface aluminum dope look the same on the metal bits as on the fabric?

Effectively, yes, note comment below, but also the underside is not going to fade in the same way.

15 hours ago, dogsbody said:

And would that be the same look as the u/c bays?

AFAIK, yes

15 hours ago, dogsbody said:

Would it be a dead matte, like the uppersurface finish, or with a bit of a sheen?

While a Spitfire, very good for pre war factory fresh, aluminium paint by it's nature has a shine to it.

Spitfire  Mk. I by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

Photos appear to show a difference in colour  between the metal and fabric parts, but this maybe due to the fabric being effectively matter in appearance, and reflecting light differently, in the way colours change with gloss and matt varnish coats on a model, you could apply different levels of sheen to a model.     

Hurricane by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

In particular look at the green on the wing between the gun bays (metal) and outboard(fabric)and the lighter triangle of Dark Earth above the metal engine and fuselage panels. (this is fabric covered plywood) 

 

I know you know the detail points above @dogsbody,  but just trying to make it clear to a more casual reader.

 

HTH

T

[Work In Progress]

49 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

It is true of the biplanes of the "World's Greatest Flying Club" era, but (as hinted at) stopped being done when times got serious. 

Not of Gauntlets and Gladiators in overall aluminium dope, for instance.  And on all of them there were some silver-doped metal areas.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Graham Boak]

Gauntlets and Gladiators were not metal monoplanes.  They existed in the earlier period when bare metal was there to be polished, not painted.

[Work In Progress]

3 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Gauntlets and Gladiators were not metal monoplanes.  They existed in the earlier period when bare metal was there to be polished, not painted.

1.  I was referring to your point about biplanes of the World's Greatest Flying Club 

2. In this earlier period when you say "bare metal was there to be polished not painted" the nose and cowling panels were painted on those types 

[dogsbody]

Thank you, gentlemen. I can always depend on the members here to supply needed information.

 

Dave! That's a great photo. I've never seen that one before.

 

 

 

Chris

[wombat]

Interesting non standard markings here 

[Dave Fleming]

SEAC roundels, 34 Squadron in Burma

 

[wombat]

13 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

SEAC roundels, 34 Squadron in Burma

 

Indeed, it’s the bright rather shonky letter codes that caught the eye.

[Graham Boak]

Look OK to me.  Codes in this period are usually depicted as white but apparently are often light blue - in view of the difference in tone between the codes and the light blue of the national markings, I suggest that these are white.  It was quite normal at this time for only the individual codes to be carried by the FR and FB units.  The lack of white bands date the photo to 1944, by 1945 the unit had returned to using its EG codes.

[Max Headroom]

A slight thread hijack here. Not a question but an observation.

 

Here is a close up of a well known photo of Hurricane IIc BE500 which I found on Facebook.

 

 

Three things I’ve not noticed before. Only the base of the aerial has been repainted in Night, leaving the rest in the original Dark Earth and that part of the ‘doghouse’ under the closed canopy is still Dark Green. Also the canopy frame was either badly repainted, or else some of the Night has flaked off revealing the original Dark Green underneath. Evidence of an in service repaint.

 

I wonder what else ‘famous’ photos are hiding in plain sight?

 

Trevor

[Troy Smith]

20 minutes ago, Max Headroom said:

Only the base of the aerial has been repainted in Night, leaving the rest in the original Dark Earth

IIRC the antenna pole is wood.

20 minutes ago, Max Headroom said:

and that part of the ‘doghouse’ under the closed canopy is still Dark Green.

yes.  As is the top of the back armour plate.

20 minutes ago, Max Headroom said:

Also the canopy frame was either badly repainted, or else some of the Night has flaked off revealing the original Dark Green underneath.

Hurricane canopies flex as they open and close, and this cause paint to flake. 

20 minutes ago, Max Headroom said:

Evidence of an in service repaint.

Indeed. AFAIK, Hurricane were not painted in overall night at the factory.

20 minutes ago, Max Headroom said:

I wonder what else ‘famous’ photos are hiding in plain sight?

this is my recent one,  as it such a famous series of photos,  

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235005804-hurricane-p3886-uniqe-fabric-wing/&do=findComment&comment=3735852

bear in mind an image  of these same Hurricanes is in Big Bang Theory opening credits... 

 

Note the last post in the above thread, i spotted that by chance, looking at a book I'd not looked at much,  but with the 'new' information on these later fabric wing planes, I've been looking at that, checked against the list and ...how about that.  

[Dave Fleming]

17 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235005804-hurricane-p3886-uniqe-fabric-wing/&do=findComment&comment=3735852

 

 

Just seen that thread,  Great resource and more uses for Airfix kits!!!

@Graham Boaksays:

 

Quote

A bit late, but Selwyn's post 28 mentions that the metal inner wing that the mechanic is sitting on is fabric covered in aircraft with fabric-covered wings.  This is undoubtedly true of early aircraft.  However, the inner wing was actually part of the aircraft centre-section.  A late production aircraft will have had this in metal whichever outer wings were fitted to it.  Something to bear in mind when modifying (or not) the Airfix kit

 

So the panel between the wing joint and the fuselage fairing on aircraft was metal rather than fabric? Do we know when this was introduced?

 

easier sanding than removing the scallops behind the gun bay, but worth knowing!

[Graham Boak]

I would assume that it was introduced at the same time as the metal outer wings, but I don't know.

[dnl42]

On 8/17/2020 at 3:01 PM, Troy Smith said:

[Max Headroom said: and that part of the ‘doghouse’ under the closed canopy is still Dark Green.]

yes.  As is the top of the back armour plate.

I've noticed that color difference too but, apparently incorrectly, thought it was interior green. Is Dark Green also true for a BoB Mk.I?

[dnl42]

Next question. The Squadron Hurricane Walk Around shows this picture of the radiator on pg 26; apparently the round oil cooler makes it a later mark.

Are those diagonal shell braces and nearly vertical door actuators also appropriate to the Mk.I?

 

Here's the Airfix 1/48 Mk.I kit. Here it appears parts D38 and D39 are more correctly sized as the nearly vertical radiator door actuators v. the angled shell braces indicated by their placement.

 

An adjacent photo from the book shows a radiator inlet vertical brace. Is that also correct for the Mk.I?

[Troy Smith]

On 23/08/2020 at 21:02, dnl42 said:

Is Dark Green also true for a BoB Mk.I?

Don't know.  The wrecks in France show the same tone for the whole backplate, so I suspect the Dark Green top armour is a later factory addition or in field, and they were Grey Green from the factory.

It would not be hard to paint the back armour though.  Refer to photos.  I shall bear it in mind on the next photo trawl.

 

On 23/08/2020 at 21:29, dnl42 said:

apparently the round oil cooler makes it a later mark.

yes, Mk. II or IV. It is deeper as well, and the intake is different shape.

On 23/08/2020 at 21:29, dnl42 said:

Are those diagonal shell braces and nearly vertical door actuators also appropriate to the Mk.I?

 

Shuttelworth Sea Hurricane, but apart from the hook, catapult spools, headrest, spinner and colours,  can be used as a BoB Mk.I reference.  The walkround linked below is great for subtle shape and airframe details.

 

Z7105 went to a technical school after the war, and stayed there until the 60's, along with the Mk.IV, KX829.

[dnl42]

@Troy Smith, thank you!!!

[JackG]

Right, let's try another cockpit question ...

The pilot armour, is the head section thicker plate, or is sitting overlapped the armour piece behind the seat??

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[72modeler]

Jack,

 

Until @Troy Smith sees this, I am going to guess it overlaps the back armor plate, as the head armor has to have something for those six bolts to be run through.

Mike

[Troy Smith]

17 hours ago, JackG said:

The pilot armour, is the head section thicker plate, or is sitting overlapped the armour piece behind the seat??

I suspect it's thicker.   There maybe some info in the Hurricane II manual,  which is not to hand to check.

 

One detail that is usually missed, and I only spotted by chance ,  due to the sun angle, which is that the armour plate projects over the edge of the ply structure of the "doghouse" , seen clearly here

 

10 hours ago, 72modeler said:

the head armor has to have something for those six bolts to be run through.

I also assume it bolts through the doghouse structure

 

as you can see,  given that the armour is wider than the doghouse,  the retaining bolts are in from the plates edges

Hurricane HW189 head armour by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

the use of what appears to be Dark Green on the back plate I had presumed was a later development, but looking at the pic of Tuck in late 1940, maybe started earlier, appears to be the same tone as the cockpit framing.   This also well shows the bolt position.

 

Hard to judge,, but these Hurricane wrecks from France (so taken May/June 1940) have a light tone on the backplate

 

 

 

All Rotol props and metal wing, so reasonably new as well.

 

 

 

some notes on Gleed's plane at the top here

HTH

[dnl42]

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

One detail that is usually missed, and I only spotted by chance ,  due to the sun angle, which is that the armour plate projects over the edge of the ply structure of the "doghouse"

The Airfix 1/48 kit has this correctly portrayed.

[JackG]

Yes, the overhang of the head armour plate at the sides I have noticed in modern photos.  

 

 

 

 

In 72nd scale,  the pilot head armour  along with the fuselage immediately behind it,  have both the shape and height compromised in order to accommodate an overly thick canopy.

 

Thanks all for the responses. 👍

 

regards,

Jack

[224 Peter]

In Paul Richie's book, Fighter Pilot, he comments that in the phoney war in France his squadron started out without any serious back/head armour. 

Using armour plate from crashed Fairy Battle bombers the new armour was fitted at unit level, in strict contravention of orders from Fighter Command as "they" believed it would make the A/C unstable. 

It didn't and not long after an example was flown back to England for testing "Official" kits appeared from the UK.

Edited August 29, 2020 by 224 Peter
typo

[dogsbody]

Looking at Jack's and Troy's photos above brought something to mind that I recall reading sometime in the past. This is that the internal framing of the canopy and windscreen on a Hurricane was painted black. Is this right or has my old brain mis-connection neurons again?

 

 

 

Chris