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Also interesting to see three underwing roundel variants in that crop of four.

Hadn't seen that thread where it came up.

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Thank you all for your input, it has given me some real food for thought to go on. I have just had a look at the decals that I have with my kit and although the codes are for 85 Sqn, there are no serial numbers on the decal sheet, the codes being VY-C/G. The other slight problem that I may have is the fuselage roundel, but I may borrow that from the Defiant that I am also building and the tail flash. As I have mentioned earlier I am slightly out of my comfort zone, as in time period, mainly model modern stuff. I do have several of Model Decal number sheets (yet again modern), so I am hoping that I could use these to make up the serial number of one of these two Hurricanes. The other option is to get the starter kit and swop the decals about.

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7 hours ago, Jabba said:

I have just had a look at the decals that I have with my kit and although the codes are for 85 Sqn, there are no serial numbers on the decal sheet, the codes being VY-C/G.

wrong prop/spinner.

P3854 has the blunt 'Spitfire'  Rotol unit.   

see here

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/

 

The kit prop is OK for the KW-Z option (starter kits markings) ...it's not the right type for the Battle of France VY-C/G option though (that is a de Havilland Spitfire type) 

see here

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235052863-airfix-172-hurricane-i/&do=findComment&comment=3305324

 

scroll down, and follow the link as well.   VY-G does not have a serial, as this was painted out in France for security.  

 

You can get a blunt Rotol and blades from an Spitfire II kit, it has another prop to build as a Mk.I BTW.

 

HTH, and sorry if it just makes you you had never asked.....

 

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No worries, to be honest I am not after overall accuracy just a basic looking Hurricane will do for me.

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Is there an equivalent list of Hurricane serial numbers and their history as there is for the Spitfire that appears on various sites out there?

I'm particularly interested in P3059, a Mk 1 that was in 501 Sqn in 1940 with code SD-N. I'm building it in the BoB GB and I've found photos of it at RAF Gravesend such as this here

 

501_Squadron_Hurricanes_at_Gravesend_dur

 

I'm interested to see the history of this aircraft after Sept 1940

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As far as I know, there isn't any extensive listing on Hurricane production like there is for the Spitfire.

 

There is this site http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM that lists production blocks and serial ranges, along with some pertinent characteristics.

 

http://www.rafcommands.com/serials/the-raf-aircraft-serial-number-look-up-tool/  is a site to look up serials, which is then listed/linked to known discussions about a particular serial. 

P3059 can be found here:  http://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/details.php?uniq=P3059

 

The recent Combat Archive publication list this serial as being flown by P/O Kenneth Lee, and being shot down on the afternoon of August 18th.  Pilot baled out with leg injuries, so am assuming  the aircraft was a write off.

 

regards,

Jack

Edited by JackG
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The Air Britain books on RAF aircraft provide a list of squadron allocations for every aircraft in RAF service, in this case the volume P1000-P9999, ending with struck off charge dates.  Obviously this doesn't leave a lot of room for details.  The Aircraft's Record Card can be obtained from the National Archives.. which will provide additional information such as dates and Maintenance Units etc.

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On ‎27‎/‎07‎/‎2020 at 19:50, Kallisti said:

I'm particularly interested in P3059, a Mk 1 that was in 501 Sqn in 1940 with code SD-N. I'm building it in the BoB GB and I've found photos of it at RAF Gravesend such as this here

I'm interested to see the history of this aircraft after Sept 1940

Delivery Logs: P3059, taken on charge 5 June 1940, to 10 MU 11 June 1940, to HB? CFF? 19 June 1940, to 10 MU 20 June 1940, to 501 Squadron 9 July 1940

Battle of Britain Then and Now: 18 August 1940, bounced by BF109s of JG26 over Canterbury 1.30pm, shot down by Oblt. G. Schoepfel, Pilot Officer K.N.T. Lee admitted to hospital with leg wounds, aircraft SD-N a write off.

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Superb thanks, that confirms the date of my BoB diorama of this aircraft refuelling at RAF Gravesend as 501 Sqn was stationed there July to Sept 1940, so it must be before 18th August :)

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Paint Colours for the Bottom of Early RCAF Hurricanes

 

Did early RCAF Hurricanes, that is the pre-war ones, have the black and light (silver, sky, or white) on the bottom.  I believe that they did but I have not seen any proof of it.  If black was used, was the alternate colour aluminum (silver), sky, or white?

 

I know that black and silver was used on the RCAF Grumman Goblins.

 

I’m doing 2 1/72 Arma Hurricanes, one in early colours of RCAF squadron 1 (the subject of my question) and the second one is going to be done after squadron 1 became 401 in the UK with the YO markings, etc.  I would like to maximize the contrast between the two models, hence my interest in the black bottom and related colours.

 

I have gone through most of this section and have found some Canadian content but nothing on this topic.

 

Thank you

George      

 

  

Edited by George W.
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36 minutes ago, George W. said:

Paint Colours for the Bottom of Early RCAF Hurricanes

 

Did early RCAF Hurricanes, that is the pre-war ones, have the black and light (silver, sky, or white) on the bottom.  I believe that they did but I have not seen any proof of it.  If black was used, was the alternate colour aluminum (silver), sky, or white?

 

I know that black and silver was used on the RCAF Grumman Goblins.

 

I’m doing 2 1/72 Arma Hurricanes, one in early colours of RCAF squadron 1 (the subject of my question) and the second one is going to be done after squadron 1 became 401 in the UK with the YO markings, etc.  I would like to maximize the contrast between the two models, hence my interest in the black bottom and related colours.

 

I have gone through most of this section and have found some Canadian content but nothing on this topic.

 

Thank you

George      

 

  

The 20 early fabric-winged Hurricanes that the RCAF received in 1939 were painted aluminum on the lower surfaces.

 

50134441446_8d796c5e7f_b.jpg

 

38927301665_76bf9b1346_b.jpg

 

38927301675_afb65f046c_b.jpg

 

46758296991_e6614cd0d3_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

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Chris, thank you that was quick.

I remember seeing your name else where in this topic.

That clarifies that, I saw at least one of those photos in Canada's Wings High Flight but did not know if was white, sky, or silver but it certainly was not black! 

Thank you again.

George

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19 minutes ago, George W. said:

Chris, thank you that was quick.

I remember seeing your name else where in this topic.

That clarifies that, I saw at least one of those photos in Canada's Wings High Flight but did not know if was white, sky, or silver but it certainly was not black! 

Thank you again.

George

 

It's whatever the aluminum dope was required for RAF aircraft. Canada bought them from the RAF/Air Ministry.

They all started life with RAF serials.

 

http://www.rwrwalker.ca/RCAF_301_350_detailed.htm

 

 

George, I see you're in Halifax. I was born and grew up just outside of Windsor. Used to do some pub-crawling in Halifax. Good times!

 

 

 

Chris

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Thanks Chris

Thank you for that link.  It has been a while since I visited Walker's page and realized it would be worth a visit for this project  I understand that a number of years ago he died and it was taken over by the Canadian War Bird group in Hamilton..

 

Thank you again.

George

 

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15 hours ago, dogsbody said:

It's whatever the aluminum dope was required for RAF aircraft.

Which at that stage is super-simple: it's just extremely finely-ground particles of alumimium stirred into clear dope. Standard for UV protection on all fabric-covered aeroplane components between the red shrinking dope and any additional topcoat that may be required, or just left alone as a final coat in its own right.

Edited by Work In Progress
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6 hours ago, George W. said:

Thanks Chris

Thank you for that link.  It has been a while since I visited Walker's page and realized it would be worth a visit for this project  I understand that a number of years ago he died and it was taken over by the Canadian War Bird group in Hamilton..

 

Thank you again.

George

 

 

I didn't know that. I've had this link on My Favourites list for years now.

 

 

 

Chris

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5 hours ago, dogsbody said:

 

I didn't know that. I've had this link on My Favourites list for years now.

 

 

 

Chris

Chris

I just checked the CWH site and there is a link to the original, the one that you are using.  I remember a number of years ago there was an explanation somewhere of Walker's death and that CWH would be hosting it.  Here is the current CWH link and explanation.  

https://www.warplane.com/aircraft/serial-numbers-database.aspx

Apparently, it seems, they have made no updates so far based on the 2013 date stamp on the home page.  In any case, I'm glad to know that it is still available.

George  

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On 7/31/2020 at 12:02 PM, dogsbody said:

They all started life with RAF serials.

 

http://www.rwrwalker.ca/RCAF_301_350_detailed.htm

 

This is a myth that Walker included on his lists, so it is often written as if it is a fact.  Here is the data plate for Hurricane 323.  They were bought by the Canadian government and the data plate has 323 clearly stamped, as it does its Hawker construction number.  No RAF serial cause the RAF didn't buy it! 

 

In addition the RCAF record card only lists 323 as a serial.

 

Jim

 

spacer.png

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Is it not possible the five digit serials were essentially just place holders at the time the production block was ordered by the British government?  When Canada inquired about the Hurricane and 20 were allocated to them, the three digit numbers were then assigned?

 

DkKzYWK.png

 

 

regards,

Jack

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Something from Carl Vincent. Note that the RAF serials are marked as " intended " but not issued to these aircraft the were purchased by Canada.

 

There are more pages to this, but I'm only posting this first page, as an example.

 

50178241263_653499c71c_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

Chris

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Concerning early RCAF Hurricane serial numbers.

I don’t know if I have been responsible for any confusion here – if so I apologize – but here is the story as I see it.

On the Canadian government’s inquiry concerning Hurricanes, the British Air Ministry agreed to relinquish  positions on the Hawker production line that had been previously allocated to RAF aircraft. At that point the Air Ministry passed out of the picture and had nothing whatsoever to do with these aircraft. The Canadian contracts (there were three altogether) were with Hawker Aircraft and payment was also made to that company. Indeed, there is a certain amount of documentation on the files in which Hawker was threatening to delay/refuse delivery if Canadian payment was not brought up to date. The unfortunate Canadians were shackled by budgetary date considerations. Therefore, it follows that, in light of these contracts, the data plates would show the Canadian serial. Furthermore, it is obvious from later events that the British never assumed that these RCAF/ex-RCAF Hurricanes had ever been allotted RAF serials.

As far as the relevant RAF serials are concerned, there is no doubt that they were never allotted to RAF aircraft. Whether rightly or wrongly, in my airframe histories, I have quoted them as “intended” both to satisfy my penchant for including even ephemerally relevant information and also to indicate their positions on the production line relative to RAF aircraft. Probably I should have used a more watered-down expression than “intended.”

I don’t know if this clarifies or muddifies the waters, but one does what one can.

Incidentally, when the RCAF was informed by Hawker that the all-aluminum finish would cause delivery delays, it agreed to accept the camouflage finish.

At the current stage of the game (I am almost 81) there is no point in being a dog in the manger with my material. Therefore, if anybody would like to have my four chapters on the early RCAF Hurricanes plus the one on 1 (F) in the Battle of Britain (all profusely illustrated), just get hold of me (by PM maybe} and I will pass them along.   

Carl                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

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2 hours ago, Carl V said:

Therefore, if anybody would like to have my four chapters on the early RCAF Hurricanes plus the one on 1 (F) in the Battle of Britain (all profusely illustrated), just get hold of me (by PM maybe} and I will pass them along.   

Carl                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

 

Trust me, people, there is some good reading in Carl's work.

 

 

 

Chris

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On 7/31/2020 at 3:15 PM, dogsbody said:

The 20 early fabric-winged Hurricanes that the RCAF received in 1939 were painted aluminum on the lower surfaces.

 

50134441446_8d796c5e7f_b.jpg

 

38927301665_76bf9b1346_b.jpg

 

38927301675_afb65f046c_b.jpg

 

46758296991_e6614cd0d3_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

Thanks Chris

These photos are very useful particularly for the placement and size of the under wing numbers. Some aircraft had the number under both wings but in opposing directions and other aircraft may have the numbers only under one wing or they are not visible for other reasons   I'm getting close to the end and trying to decide on the most appropriate aircraft numbers as well as final detailing.  Do you know the colour of the forward part of the spinner?  I was thinking it was red but I do not know where I got that idea.   

 

Also, I lived in Halifax since I left school and while in school I was in Yarmouth with time spent at Acadia U in between.

 

George

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