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Sean_M

All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

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2 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

IWM MH 4633 to MH 4649 are a set of photographs of Hawker aircaft taken, I suppose, somewhere at Hawkers. Not all of them are available on line, but those I can look at all appear to be factory photos. No unit markings, plain standard finish, etc. To me, Z2515 doesn't look at all as an operational machine.

I'm simply assuming it was pictured while ejector exhausts had been left off for some reason like maintenance, or the like. It's boring, I know.

Thanks, useful info.  Looks like it's had the engine run in that condition, but it would never be supplied to a customer like that. Just possible it's been flight-tested for some purpose with the temporary Fury-style individual short stacks pending supplies of the proper item.

 

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17 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

... I'm simply assuming it was pictured while ejector exhausts had been left off for some reason like maintenance, or the like...

Interesting suggestion, thanks. I don’t think this is what is happening because the exhaust gas stains suggest that the engine has been run in this configuration, which would rule out maintenance being undertaken when the photo was taken?

 

Maybe I’ll end up purchasing the image in higher resolution to get a better look.

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It's not naked, its not an aircraft with the usual exhausts removed and nothing else substituted. It's had Fury-style stacks installed to get the exhaust gases (just barely) the correct side of the cowling to enable it to run. Much like this (ignore the fact that this Fury has blanks in the pipes to prevent moisture ingress) . Given Claudio's useful info that it's in the possession of the Hawker factory at the time of the shot, it might well be that they are actual Fury exhausts (if the Merlin and Kestrel exhaust ports are compatible with or without some adjustment work, which I don't know offhand ) 

fury_by_foofighter7_d9vy37i-pre.jpg?toke

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I think that photo with the mysterious exhausts is one of the A&AEE series, not a Hawker photo.  The aircraft in question certainly spent some time there, but I don't have details of what testing was done with it.  I bet your answer will be there, though.

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 On 22/02/2020 at 04:01, StevSmar said:

Does anyone know why this Hurricane has exhausts like this?

(Imperial War Museum MH 4936)

Mason's book said deliveries of aircraft in this series commenced 14-1-41 and ended 28-7-41 and that Z2515 was damaged and repaired by David Rosenfields Ltd in 1942. Maybe this picture was taken after it was repaired? Maybe they tried taking off the ejector exhausts to see how much effect it made, which is why it had a Hawker Aircraft record photo taken of it?

 

On 23/02/2020 at 09:33, ClaudioN said:

IWM MH 4633 to MH 4649 are a set of photographs of Hawker aircaft taken, I suppose, somewhere at Hawkers. Not all of them are available on line but those I can look at, all appear to be factory photos. No unit markings, plain standard finish, etc. To me, Z2515 doesn't look at all as an operational machine.

I'm simply assuming it was pictured while ejector exhausts had been left off for some reason like maintenance, or the like. It's boring, I know.

 

2 hours ago, gingerbob said:

I think that photo with the mysterious exhausts is one of the A&AEE series, not a Hawker photo.  The aircraft in question certainly spent some time there, but I don't have details of what testing was done with it.  I bet your answer will be there, though.

As Gingerbob says, not a Hawker photo, it's a standard A&AEE "portrait" photo taken to accompany official reports. Z2515 arrived at Boscombe circa March 1941 and was involved in high altitude lubricant trials around that time. I can't think of any connection between lubricant trials and exhaust stubs, so the reason must have been for some other trials. Based on the record of Boscombe Hurricane trials discussed in Mason's The Secret Years there is brief mention of ejector exhaust trials and flame damping trials. Z2515 isn't mentioned, but maybe the straight stubs were used for baseline data for these or similar trials?

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4 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

maybe the straight stubs were used for baseline data for these or similar trials?

That is a sensible speculation

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On 2/24/2020 at 10:55 AM, Dave Swindell said:

As Gingerbob says, not a Hawker photo, it's a standard A&AEE "portrait" photo taken to accompany official reports. Z2515 arrived at Boscombe circa March 1941 and was involved in high altitude lubricant trials around that time. I can't think of any connection between lubricant trials and exhaust stubs, so the reason must have been for some other trials. Based on the record of Boscombe Hurricane trials discussed in Mason's The Secret Years there is brief mention of ejector exhaust trials and flame damping trials. Z2515 isn't mentioned, but maybe the straight stubs were used for baseline data for these or similar trials?

What Mason book is "The Secret Years", it's not a chapter in my 1988 book of the Hurricane.

That's interesting these are standard A&AEE photos, I never knew that.

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1 hour ago, StevSmar said:

What Mason book is "The Secret Years", it's not a chapter in my 1988 book of the Hurricane.

That's interesting these are standard A&AEE photos, I never knew that.

"The Secret Years" by Tim Mason, Hikoki Publications. 1998, ISBN 0 951899 9 5.

 

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So, which photograph is correct?

 

This one, from the Imperial War Museum, with a red prop spinner:

 

large_000000.jpg?_ga=2.194341931.7287028

 

 

or this one, that I found online, with a yellow spinner? Inquiring minds need to know.

 

49617978988_9dba38c3ac_c.jpg

 

 

 

Chris

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16 hours ago, dogsbody said:

So, which photograph is correct?

 

This one, from the Imperial War Museum, with a red prop spinner:

 

or this one, that I found online, with a yellow spinner? Inquiring minds need to know.

 

Chris

They both look yellow on my monitor.

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4 minutes ago, Andrew Jones said:

They both look yellow on my monitor.

 

On mine, the top one is red. It matches the roundel centre dot.

 

 

 

Chris

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Posted (edited)

The whole 2nd picture is adapted as far as exposure goes. I'd say red - even the overexposed version isn't yellow, compared to the roundel.

Edited by alt-92

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I’m looking at those pictures on an iPhone, so take my advice with a pinch of salt, but the first picture seems more balanced. Also looking at the sky, it seems ‘natural’.

 

Looking at the roundel and tail flash, the colours seem to be more in line with my expectations.

 

Trevor

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1 hour ago, dogsbody said:

 

On mine, the top one is red. It matches the roundel centre dot.

 

 

 

Chris

Mine as well ? 

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On my monitor in both reproductions the spinner matches the centre dot of the roundel.  The photo was taken by the great aviation photographer Charles Brown.  The upper shot has the IWM watermark: I think the IWM hold the whole Charles brown collection and we might expect them to reproduce it decently.  I suspect strongly that the 2nd one, off the internet, has been lifted from a 1993 book by Roger Freeman called The Royal Air Force of World War Two In Colour.  In those pre-internet days it was a fantastic collation of original colour pictures of RAF WW2 subjects but the book is notorious for the poor fidelity with which the colours were reproduced (which, from the title, was rather the point of the book!).

 

So my vote is for Red.

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2 hours ago, Seahawk said:

On my monitor in both reproductions the spinner matches the centre dot of the roundel.  The photo was taken by the great aviation photographer Charles Brown.  The upper shot has the IWM watermark: I think the IWM hold the whole Charles brown collection and we might expect them to reproduce it decently.  I suspect strongly that the 2nd one, off the internet, has been lifted from a 1993 book by Roger Freeman called The Royal Air Force of World War Two In Colour.  In those pre-internet days it was a fantastic collation of original colour pictures of RAF WW2 subjects but the book is notorious for the poor fidelity with which the colours were reproduced (which, from the title, was rather the point of the book!).

 

So my vote is for Red.

 

I think I've got that buried in the book stash. I'll dig it out and have a look.

 

 

 

Chris

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5 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Mine as well ? 

Lemme see- we know the serial is red; we know the leading band of the fin flash and the center of the roundel are red, so I would say the spinner in the leading photo is red, as it matches all three; in the other photos with the yellow spinner, those same three areas look  to be more orange and/or yellow in  appearance. If BE500 did indeed have a yellow spinner, those three areas should still be red, if the photo hadn't been colorized or filtered. Looks like the exhausts got a lot lighter, too. Paint the spinner red, Dennis!

Mike

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10 hours ago, Seahawk said:

book by Roger Freeman called The Royal Air Force of World War Two In Colour.  In those pre-internet days it was a fantastic collation of original colour pictures of RAF WW2 subjects but the book is

 In my copy, the serial, roundel centres and fin flash are a washed-out red. It's definitely red, not orange. The spinner is quite a bright yellow, really only a slight hint of peach or orange.

The colour rendition in the book is not particularly good but I suspect the source material and  print costs are equally to blame.

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On 3/3/2020 at 9:13 PM, Magpie22 said:

"The Secret Years" by Tim Mason, Hikoki Publications. 1998, ISBN 0 951899 9 5.

 

Thanks Magpie22!

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Ok chaps. Managed to get hold of a decalset of PZ865 last of the many as Townsend’s air racer. However the shade of blue is not referenced, and the very few colour images online look like their colour balance is a bit out.  Does anyone know a reliable colour value?

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36 minutes ago, wombat said:

Ok chaps. Managed to get hold of a decalset of PZ865 last of the many as Townsend’s air racer. However the shade of blue is not referenced, and the very few colour images online look like their colour balance is a bit out.  Does anyone know a reliable colour value?

Apparently Oxford Blue.

A post on Key Forum had an image from one of the BBMF personnel, and showed where a small panel was removed, showing a blue colour, the chap took a photo over a BS381c chart, the closest match was BS 105 Oxford Blue  or wartime roundel blue

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/collections/colourcoats-sea-british/products/acrn31-ww2-roundel-blue-oxford-blue-bs105

 

Not find the thread at the moment,  I did save the photo. 

I'll add in if I find it.

 

HTH

 

 

Had a link, but now gone... thread worth a read though.

PPS got it

https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/23820-blue-hurricane

Quote

During the current work being undertaken on PZ865, we removed a blanked over air scoop about the size of a 2p coin. Under the rivetted blanking plate was the intake scoop in the original blue paintwork:) I duly fetched my books of colour chips and set to work. Although the colour does change in different lighting conditions (they all do) it was a strong match for one of them: Oxford Blue. Here's a picture, you decide...

Oxford%20Blue%20002.jpg

 

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This is a two seat Hurricane IIb, converted by the 350FG as a squadron hack and general runabout. You can see the edge of the second hood to the right of the guy standing on wing.

49832769406_6c4fe7cfae_c.jpg[/url]

 

Question - It appears to be unarmed as one would expect and the gun ports are covered (doped?) over. What is the object on the leading edge inboard of the landing light? It looks like a second landing light.

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Afair it was a camera. This jobbie was also used for recce over the Sicilian beaches

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