All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

[Troy Smith]

9 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

Which aircraft carried the 5 spoke wheels, and how long were they in use? (And are the CMK ones the only 1/72 one So?)

AFAIK, only the first two Hawker batches, the L**** and N**** serial planes, and they retained them in service, no replacement policy.

Tip, both in 1/72 and 1/48, Eduard Spitfires come with 3 wheel hubs, and the 5 spoke can be used to replace kit 4 spoke.

They are 12 scale inches, so use a 1/6in or 4mm drill bit in 72nd, or 1/4in or 6mm in 48th

[Dave Fleming]

Thanks guys, I'd heard about the Freightdog ones, but couldn't find them.

 

Good idea on the Eduard hubs - time to get the Oyumaru out!

[Dave Fleming]

Via Facebook, some interesting pictures. Other albums have interetsing pics a swell

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144949377@N05/sets/72157678154026658/with/46903476581/?fbclid=IwAR0KoRK7SLboTxi93fNplCMS3Bbv9mwVAlxlaqDMzm8Lc2H2-ENhibJzko4

 

 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Dave Fleming

[Graham Boak]

A mix of props. Mainly Rotol but some DH.

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Dave Fleming said:

some interesting pictures. Other albums have interetsing pics a swell

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144949377@N05/sets/72157678154026658/with/46903476581/?fbclid=IwAR0KoRK7SLboTxi93fNplCMS3Bbv9mwVAlxlaqDMzm8Lc2H2-ENhibJzko4

 

 

subject of this thread Dave

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235050223-battle-of-britain-in-photos-albums/

 

some fascinating images, and some serial ID's worked out too.

 

cheers

T

[Graham Boak]

Here's a curiosity.  I've just been rereading Shores et al A History of the Mediterranean Air War vol.1   15th June, 1941,   274 Sq ...made first use of its cannon-armed Hurricane...  No problem there, you might think?  However, this is some four months before the first appearance of the Mk.II in the area  (October 19th, 1 SAAF, and those were not Mk.IIc).   274 Sq were equipped with the Mk.I, and although generally good at providing serials for claims/losses, there's nothing available for this example, shot down on its first operational sortie.  There doesn't seem to be any comment passed about other examples with cannon, with 274 or any other unit, until the Mk.IIc is noted with 238 Sq in mid-November.  (To be fair, I SAAF simply describe theirs as Mk.II but are noted as Mk.IIA/B elsewhere.)

 

So was there a one-off cannon-armed Mk.I in the desert?  Alexandria's MU at it again?  Or was this a very early one-off Mk.IIc?  If Shores doesn't mention the serial, it's unlikely to be recognisable in the Air Britain serial books, and certainly not if it was a converted Mk.I.  Any information anywhere else that anyone knows about?

[gingerbob]

ORB 14 June '41: One cannon Hurricane took off this morning on a special mission of straffing enemy tanks in the ____ area, and three were thoroughly straffed together with 20 M.T. which [were seen?] in the same district.  [Note that the ORB also speaks of "long range Hurricanes" and "short range Hurricanes", though also sometimes just says Hurricanes.]

 

15th: The cannon Hurricane was given the job of neutralizing a field gun position between __ Capuzzo and Halfaya Pass, 1 Hurricane of 6 Squadron acted as guide and escort, however the escort plane was shot down and no news has been heard of the cannon Hurricane (P/O Sumner)

[Graham Boak]

The long range Hurricanes were those with fixed underwing tanks, used against the supply route behind the lines.

 

So the cannon machine was used twice, and there is an implication (I suspect false) of more than one.  But still no hint of just what it was.

[gingerbob]

6 Squadron ORB 15 June 41: "Pilot Officer A(?) JW McBarnett was next off and combined his Tac/R with escorting a cannon Hurricane which was attacking an enemy field Battery.  They met three M.E. 109's and both Hurricanes were shot down.  The cannon Hurricane pilot of No. 274 Squadron was killed, but Pilot Officer McBarnet [that's how the ORB has it] was only slighly wounded and walked back to our own lines."  McBarnet's possibly V7710- hard to see. 

 

274's ORB doesn't give serials.  I also read through May's Summary (and earlier June) but no mention of arrival of cannon Hurricane.  Ah, but wait!  This record gives V7348

Edited February 5, 2019 by gingerbob

[Graham Boak]

Shores does not give a serial for McBarnet, but does for two other 274 aircraft flying that day.  Hobbs in W9293 claimed an Hs126, Peronne force landed in enemy territory in Z7827.  274 lost three other Hurricanes that day.

[gingerbob]

McBarnet is from 6 Squadron.

 

Searching for Hurricane V7348, I find that on 25 March '41 (with 274 Sqn): "Two aircraft were ordered to patrol [looks like a map sector, like "C 12"] but unfortunately whilst taking off one aircraft crashed into the other.  The patrol was cancelled.  P/O Strong received facial injuries."  Strong was in V7348 per the casualty record.

 

On 27 Mar: "Owing to the accidents which have occured recently we have only one serviceable aircraft."  (Three Hurricanes arrive from the depot the next day.)

 

In Mid April the squadron moved into the Western Desert.  Presumably V7348 remained in Egypt undergoing repair.  Hmm....

[Graham Boak]

I know McBarnet was 6 Sq: the two parts of the sentence were not directly connected.  I should try to maintain a higher standard of English.

 

Air Britain has V7348 with 274 Sq, missing from attack on artillery positions near Fort Capuzzo 15.6.41.

 

There's no mention of the crash of the 25.6. in Shores, but if neither of the aircraft were destroyed then he wouldn't consider it important enough to mention. However as there is no record for V7348 after the 15th, presumably the later reference is an error.  Given the number of Hurricanes known to have served in units not mentioned in the records, this can't be confirmed.  (Shores takes delight in pointing out examples.)  There are (unsurprisingly) a number of V7xxx Hurricanes that served with 274 and then with someone else later, before being written off after mid 1942, but none that I found are obvious candidates.

 

 

[gingerbob]

I thought you understood about McBarnet.

 

V7348: 25 March is the ground accident, and the serial does appear in the ORB in days prior.  I did find serials recorded in June, but it is a sideways scan- certainly appeared to be 7348, so seemingly no question that it was lost on June 15th.  My idea was that in March it was a standard (tropicalized) Mk.I, but perhaps while being repaired from the ground collision, it received new wing panels or perhaps a local work-up?  I was hoping that the serial would set off alarm bells for someone!

 

[Tom R]

I know it has been asked before several times but is there any information on Tac-R Hurricanes about.

This discussion (like most of the others) soon wanders off into PR Hurricanes, which seem to be different. In this discussion the Morley Mowers book looks interesting. Can anyone say if it mentions the difference betwwen an ordinary Hurricane I and a Tac-R version Hurricane I?

Theres a link in Post 10 but it is defunct.

I suppose it may be that there are no photos or decsriptions of Tac-R Hurricane I's beyond "They may have has a vertical camera fitted behind the cockpit  and they may have had an oblique camera looking thru a little window in the fuselage aft of and below the cockpit". Any advances?

[dragonlanceHR]

Tom, 

I have since then obtained the Messerschmitt Roulette book, great read. No cameras, pilots took notes on a pad.

 

Vedtan

[Graham Boak]

This certainly varied, there are photos of a small square window low down behind the trailing edge, and other(s) showing what appears to be a short lens extension below the fuselage bottom line.  Most likely is that the units operated a mix of FR and standard Hurricanes, but the pilots of both would use pencilled notes of what they observed.

 

FR aircraft were armed, PR ones weren't.  PR Hurricanes were often seen with a large ventral bulge protecting longer lenses for operations at higher levels, and perhaps some element of forward looking (although the practical side of this isn't clear as a wingmounted camera as seen on FR Hurricanes would seem as effective.)

 

There are a number of photos of FR Hurricanes in Shores Mediterranean Air War books.   Presumably more in the first volume, though I haven't reread the second yet with this in mind.  208 and 451 do appear prominently in its index, but presumably mainly as victims. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Graham Boak

[Max Headroom]

Somewhere in this thread (earlyish 2015???) I had a query about the BoBF’s LF363 and during the discussion a photo cropped up of its skeletal form when being rebuilt and there on the port side just behind the wing root was a fitting for a camera pointing out horizontally. 

 

In a rush ATM so will check this later.......

 

Trevor

 

EDIT - see post 311 on page 13. There are photos of other reconnaissance configured Hurricanes in that part of the thread too

[Graham Boak]

yes, I found it too.  Fortunately it hadn't suffered from the dreaded deletions.  This site could use a better way of flicking through the pages, perhaps, but there was a lot of good stuff found en route.  I was surprised at some of the things I knew back then, but I guess time is moving more quickly now I'm enjoying myself/retired.  Plus of course some of the things I thought I knew...  

[Seahawk]

Is there a simple rule-of-thumb guide for the hard of thinking as to which Hurricane Is had the pre-war "bright" roundel colours?  By serial batch would be nice.

[Graham Boak]

Gloster-built ones.

[Seahawk]

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Gloster-built ones.

Would that be "all Gloster-built Hurricane Is unless subsequently repainted" or "all Gloster-built Hurricane Is (unless subsequently repainted) until Gloster started using the officially prescribed dull shades"?  If the latter, where (serial) or when (date) was the transition?

[Seahawk]

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 7:00 PM, Seahawk said:

Would that be "all Gloster-built Hurricane Is unless subsequently repainted" or "all Gloster-built Hurricane Is (unless subsequently repainted) until Gloster started using the officially prescribed dull shades"?  If the latter, where (serial) or when (date) was the transition?

Well, in the interests of a little pump-priming, I shall try and answer my own question.  I pretend to no particular expertise on Hurricanes, so constructive comments welcome.

 

Graham's response indicates that Gloster-built aircraft used the "bright colours".  On 1 September 1940 MAP sent a circular to all the aircraft manufacturers requiring Resident Technical Officers to advise the companies to which they were attached that dull identification colours were required for the national markings on aircraft.  Gloster seem to have been the chief offender.  Even in wartime one could imagine it taking a month or so for this to percolate through and affect completed aircraft leaving the factory gates.  So, assuming that Gloster heeded the directive and that undelivered aircraft were not repainted, the changeover would affect Gloster-built Hurricanes completed after mid/late September 1940.  This means that Hurricane Is of Gloster's first (P2535-P3264, delivered 12/39 to 4/40) and second (R4074-R4232, delivered 7/40 to 8/40) batches might be expected to be in bright colours.  Working from the date, the changeover would appear to fall somewhere during Part 1 of Gloster's third production batch (V6533-V7195) delivered between 7/40 and 11/40 [1].  By the time you get to Part 2 of Gloster's third batch (W9110-W9359, delivered 11/40-12/40 [1]) the changeover ought to have been complete.  I can't be any more precise about whereabouts in the V6533-V7195 batch the changeover occurred: I'd simply suggest that, the nearer to the beginning of the batch the serial falls, the more likely the aircraft is to be in bright colours and, the nearer to the end, the more likely in dull colours.  A wrinkle is that where national markings on earlier Gloster aircraft (Pxxxx and Rxxxx serials) were repainted in service (eg after the fin flash was standardised at 27" x 24" at an Air Ministry conference of 23 July 1940), it would presumably be possible to have national markings in a mixture of colours (eg in this case bright red roundel colours but dull red fin flash).

 

NB above serial number blocks disregard black-out blocks for brevity.

 

This argument is based solely on the production records in Mason's Hawker Hurricane, 1990 (RAFM) Edition, and the description of the MAP minute on p.6 of Paul Lucas' On Target Special 2: Britain Alone.  I have not consulted the photographic record at all, not least because I am not confident of being able to tell the two tones apart from B&W photos.  I am therefore quite possibly guilty of (what I hope is) logical thought.  Therefore thoughts, up to and including reasoned demolition of the whole thesis, welcome.

 

[1] NB Air Britain give slightly different batch delivery periods.  Notably it has Batch 3 Part 1 running until Jan 41 which would shift the changeover in colours closer to the beginning of the batch.  The finish date for the Rxxxx batch and the start date for the Wxxxx batch are the same so the argument as it touches on them is unaffected.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Seahawk

[ClaudioN]

6 hours ago, Seahawk said:

This means that Hurricane Is of Gloster's first (P2535-P3264, delivered 12/39 to 4/40) and second (R4074-R4232, delivered 7/40 to 8/40) batches might be expected to be in bright colours. 

Any idea about what Glosters had been doing between April and July 1940?

 

Claudio

[Seahawk]

13 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

Any idea about what Glosters had been doing between April and July 1940?

 

Claudio

Honest answer: no.  According to Derek James' Putnam volume, total Gloster output in 1940 was 16 Gladiators (Mason's The Gloster Gladiator says production ended in April 40), 19 Henleys (Air Britain says production of 200 aircraft was completed Sep 40, having begun in Nov 38), 1211 Hurricanes and 1 F.9/37.  It may be relevant that a shadow factory alongside the existing one at Hucclecote, begun in Aug 38, was completed in Nov 40: something as unexciting as shifting machinery and tooling around may be the explanation.  But that's a total guess.

[gingerbob]

My guess is that there's something missing- either date error or...?  I don't think that I have any records of Gloster production specifically for this period, but...

 

according to AIR 19/524 Gloster Hurricane production:

10/39 2

11/39 13

12/39 17

 

(last 3 Gladiators delivered in April '40, and agrees with the above quoted 16 for 1940)

 

Total Hurricane production (the file may have broken it out by manufacturer, but I only recorded totals, and it isn't clear whether this is "production" or "deliveries to RAF", or something else- at any rate, it'll give you a ballpark idea)

1/40 108

2        83

3       123

4       173

5       226

6       309

7       272

(the next three months hover right at 250)