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Sean_M

All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

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There's a couple of things I've noted already about this drawing that don't tally...

ca4103review_instr2

 

Ventral keel missing, aerial fitted, lettering close but not quite.

I'm struggling to work out what on the top view of the wing is nmf and what's silver dope.

Here's what I've got so far...

IMG_20181215_231325

 

Any evidence for or contrary, for G-AFKX, ?? 

The drawing has a 2box colour key, but they look the same, and so does the shading on all of the airframe.

For completeness, here is the underside...no radiator yet..

IMG_20181215_231352

 

Anybody know or think differently?

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Gentlemen and -of course - ladies interested,

 

I received the new Arma-Hobby kit of the Mk. I yesterday and took a little time to feature it in our German "Modellboard". Please have a look:

 

http://modellboard.net/index.php/topic,61733.0.html

 

If time permits I will do something equal here in BMF, too during the holiday season after Christmas

 

Best regards

 

Michael

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5 hours ago, michael_hase said:

Gentlemen and -of course - ladies interested,

 

I received the new Arma-Hobby kit of the Mk. I yesterday and took a little time to feature it in our German "Modellboard". Please have a look:

 

http://modellboard.net/index.php/topic,61733.0.html

 

If time permits I will do something equal here in BMF, too during the holiday season after Christmas

 

Best regards

 

Michael

Christmas can wait. It comes back every year...

;)

 

Cheers / André

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11 hours ago, michael_hase said:

the new Arma-Hobby kit of the Mk. I yesterday

Unglucklich mit Metalflugen.!

Wienachsten nexte Jahre vieleicht bitte??

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55 minutes ago, rob Lyttle said:

Unglucklich mit Metalflugen.!

Wienachsten nexte Jahre vieleicht bitte??

Hi Rob,

 

what do you mean, please? You are unhappy that the Arma-Model has "tin-wings"? It will be available from now on.  I am sure I will have time to do the feature here in BFM.

 

Cheers

 

Michael

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Michael,

 

Whats wrong with the engine (?) and the decals?

 


"- teilw. fehlende "Grundbenietung" im Bereich Motor)
- Decals - die überzeugen mich noch nicht."

 

Cheers / André

Edited by Andre B

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Google translation says nothing about being unhappy with the metal wing.

 

You might like to compare this with my verbal description  here:

Basically we agree quite well.

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1 hour ago, michael_hase said:

Hi Rob,

 

what do you mean, please? You are unhappy that the Arma-Model has "tin-wings"? I

I'm OK. Just taking a bit of interest in the early fabric wing Hurricane.

I'm no H expert--- and I'm always astonished at the knowledge and info on this and other threads on the subject

 

So I was wondering if Arma have plans to issue an early fabric wing version... by next Christmas!?

Looks like a great kit

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You can always get the Airfix one.  It's a bit fiddly and needs some loving care, but it is pretty good.  Or, of course, there is the Sword/AZ kit, also pretty good.

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4 minutes ago, rob Lyttle said:

I'm OK. Just taking a bit of interest in the early fabric wing Hurricane.

I'm no H expert--- and I'm always astonished at the knowledge and info on this and other threads on the subject

 

So I was wondering if Arma have plans to issue an early fabric wing version... by next Christmas!?

Looks like a great kit

The biggest gripe I saw when Airfix did their fabric wing Hurricane was that wasn’t a tin-wing...

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Some people are never satisfied.  However, it does have a few more problems than that.  Nothing that can't be worked around (or a replacement set of wheels bought).

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44 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

You can always get the Airfix one. 

On the bench as we speak... See photos above.

Trying to do G-afkx.

Going to have to find a Rotol prop and spinner-- other than that, it's a tidy little kit for my purpose.

Edited by rob Lyttle

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Sorry for my delayed reply...  and sorry that I haven´t noticed the other thread about the Arma-kit yet. Thanks Graham for giving me a hint!

 

Graham already put it to the point. It certainly is "the" tin-wing Mk, I in 1/72nd although not without the one or other minor issue. Not astonishly Graham found the same differences with lengths, particularly the fuselage. My Bentley-plans show that the wing-span should be 100% - perhaps we scale down the original diemnsions given and use a caliper instead?

 

The difference is the front "ring" which is slightly too long (appr. 0.5mm) - for most of us no issue as such. But I noticed a small sink hole on the upper part of the fabric elevators. I will see how much will be seen after painting.

 

I asked Arma if it would be possible to mould separate flaps and ailerons but the construction of the moulds was too far then. Also the radiator flap. But a less experienced modeller can create these himself, too.  The interior always is an issue with the Hurricane. I did scratch the one or other myself but at the end of the day "I Know it is there"....

 

It would have been niche if they had moulded  the Dzusi-fasteners around the engine covers which were prominent and remarkable on the original. In fact they did but I did not notice them until yesterday evening. They are "original-scale" and extremely tiny. Hope they will surface after painting!

 

I do not need the complete riveting on a 1/72nd-scale model, particularly of this size as you won´t see these in the original aircraft very much with regard to the "scale-distance" - of course I accept any other point of view as well "chacun à son goût"....

 

The wheels are too flat for my opinion, but this seems to be "common standard" nowadays. What I don´t like is their decals. They seem to be very thick and the colours for the Gloster-/Hawker-built aircraft a bit too bright and intensive. But this is only my impression and there are many after-market decals availble and surely in our stashes.

 

I have no idea of what they are planning next. I assume that they will have to sell their Mk. I´s first.... Presumably however no "rag-wing" Mk. I will be done, Airfix has one already....  I think that it might be a Mk.II according to their policy of modelling "Polish-related" items. Again Airfix has one but do not force me to do a decent comment on this one. But: just ask Wojtek from Arma himself....

 

Defintely my Christmas-project - a Mk. I with Finnish markings and RAF-scheme.... 

 

Cheers

 

Michael

Edited by michael_hase
Correcting a mistake!

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If you have the original magazine issue or his personal reprints then they should agree.  Or soon the man himself said.  If you have the earlier reprints then they were not reproduced to scale.

 

I had noticed the flat tyres but not before writing the comments.  To be honest these are so common nowadays that I've stopped caring unless they are particularly atrocious.  Which these are not.  I had assumed the tiny overall length difference to be overall not localised, and not worth chasing.  The nose ring however is pretty small itself so a small difference can show: I shall go back and look again - always a good point in a review.

 

Regards the Airfix Mk.IIc: if you scrape off all the false fabric effect you can cut off the rear fuselage and replace the sunken version on the Hasegawa kit.  Mind you, I don't know whether the sections match, and I've preferred less drastic measures so far.

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On 15/12/2018 at 23:29, rob Lyttle said:

I'm struggling to work out what on the top view of the wing is nmf and what's silver dope.

Here's what I've got so far...

IMG_20181215_231325

 

Hi Rob

metal to edge of gun bay door, though leading is metal, some is fabric covered, perhaps all,  the drawing should show what you need.

Airfix show fabric behind gun bay, which is wrong

post-2-1108455646.jpg

 

 

 

PS this shows the change point well

Battle_of_Britain_No%2085%20Sqn_Lille-Se

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5 hours ago, michael_hase said:

What I don´t like is their decals. They seem to be very thick and the colours for the Gloster-/Hawker-built aircraft a bit too bright and intensive.

Decals are new formula from Techmod. I've not yet tried Hurricane ones but Fokker E.V decals go well on Hurricane wing:

 

wing-techmod.jpg&key=f3ca92aadcd68bd96f3

 

Edited by Wojtek Bulhak

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9 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

 Airfix show fabric behind gun bay, which is wrong

I saw that, and wondered about it.

Thanks, Troy

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Bit of luck at the club meeting on Wednesday evening.

I picked up the Scale Models mag for Aug 1980-- special Hurricane issue. And it has the Bentley drawings!! Including K5083!

By the comments above, I take it that these are as good as it gets.

Also the metal winged Mk1, and some great builds and profiles

K5083 is going to get done one day, for sure!

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1 hour ago, rob Lyttle said:

I picked up the Scale Models mag for Aug 1980-- special Hurricane issue. And it has the Bentley drawings!! Including K5083!

By the comments above, I take it that these are as good as it gets.

it has two of four pages,  the next pages are in the Sep issue, which has front and back views, ans some other details, Sea hurricane and cannon wing and Oct issues, with the internals and this, which the subsequent reprints don't have, but explains a lot of the problems  that occur with many other drawings....

HurricaneBentleynotescrop_zpsc6a2675f.jp

 

in the end I scanned it and have posted it here on many occasions, as this kind of information gets 'lost'

 

If this was available to the design team at Airfix when they tooled up the 72nd IIc kit, they would hopefully checked the very pretty drawings in the 2nd edition Francis K Mason book, with Mason's name on them no less, against, say some of the photos in the book and seen how wrong they were.... 

 

 

 

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Right, I think I found a possible correction to that Hurricane serial I had posted here on the previous page.  Since the after action report has P2482 (which does not exist), it must be an N series production frame, and the exact same sequence seems valid:

http://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/details.php?uniq=N2482

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

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Gentlemen,

 

I have to admit that I might be growing old and less "sharp-eyed" - the fasteners actually are there! You can see them with a magnifier and they definitely look in scale. My apologies to Wojtek and I have corrected my post accordingly - yet another "+"

 

As I wrote to Wojtek - my Christmas build will be a Finnish one with RAF-coliurs (DG/DE over white/black/silver, Finnish and yellow "East-Front" markings - a real mixture! Not to be exhibited here in Germany due to understandable political reasons.  As far as I judge the case legally it is not prohibited according to German penal law like the German swastika which is absolutely forbidden and you better keep with this rule here not to get under suspicion of being right-wing...

 

However there is yet one topic to clarify - the front armour of the Finnish Mk. I. The one at Tikkakoski (HC-452) has a replacement wind-shield with internal additional armour fitted, a replacement which was done not too long ago. The pictures of original Suomi Ilmavoimat Hurricanes I discovered give more the idea that these were external mounted armour glasses which seems to be more correct. 

 

Cheers and "Happy Christmas"!

 

Michael

 

 

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28 minutes ago, michael_hase said:

The pictures of original Suomi Ilmavoimat Hurricanes I discovered give more the idea that these were external mounted armour glasses which seems to be more correct. 

go by a period photo.  They only had 12, plus the ones captured from the VVS.  There are photos of them all I think.  Just make sure it's not one of the fabric wing ones.

29 minutes ago, michael_hase said:

my Christmas build will be a Finnish one with RAF-coliurs

you will need to get some 5 spoke wheels,  though if you have an Eduard Spitfire (or know someone) ask for a set of the 5 spoke wheel hubs and then drill out the kit ones.

you also need a Spitfire type De Havilland prop,  an option in many Spitfire kits so easy enough, and you need to fill the rectangular access hatch in the starboard side

this one

Hawker_Hurricane_mail_transport_Normandy

 

though this maybe tricky to do. 

 

HTH

 

 

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Hi Troy,

 

thanks for your posting! Also thanks for the hints you have given - any of them gladly appreciated and surely an info for all others who want to do some of these aircraft, too.

 

The Finnish AF eventually had ten Mk. I as two were lost "on the way" from Scotland to Finland. Some of them are very well documented. Only three are said to have been rag-winged and mine is definitely not one of these. Sadly they had a very short "career" due to the lack of spare parts. Who thought that Finland and Germany went together as allies in 1941 when these aircraft were sold/given to Finland in 1939. The only Russian one the Fins actually put in service was a lend&lease IIB but this never went into action. As far as I know it even was repainted in British or Finnish "war-paint".

 

I have five-spoke wheels in my stash, but the idea of using Eduard wheel-rims sounds interesting and surely like putting in a little work.

 

Is there anything wrong with the Arma DH-prop? My first impression was no. I will have to compare the Arma DH-prop with one of the Hurricane and Spitfire Mk. I DH-props I have and both with the one on the original (HC-452) I took pictures of.

 

The rectangular access hatch already caused me some headache. I am not sure if I will do this. The problem is that the surface structure there is interrupted at this hatch and filling in will result in remoulding the rib structure through until the end of the fabric covered section. Whether the result will justify the effort I will see.

 

Best regards

 

Michael

 

 

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On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 3:13 AM, Graham Boak said:

Regards the Airfix Mk.IIc: if you scrape off all the false fabric effect you can cut off the rear fuselage and replace the sunken version on the Hasegawa kit. 

One way to go, for sure, Graham/Troy, but then there's the issue of the incorrect wheel bays on the Hasegawa kits lower wing! My hope is that Arma does a Mk IIc/d at some point- then I can easily do a Mk IV and Mk V from that with some filling and re-scribing wing access panels. (I've already got resin armored/larger radiators.) Having not seen the Arma Mk 1 yet, does it look like it is engineered to do a Sea Hurricane at some point or maybe a MK XII?

Mike

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4 hours ago, michael_hase said:

Is there anything wrong with the Arma DH-prop? My first impression was no. I will have to compare the Arma DH-prop with one of the Hurricane and Spitfire Mk. I DH-props I have and both with the one on the original (HC-452) I took pictures of.

No need Michael

 

Arma have supplied prop appropriate to the kit. But the Arma kit represents the most common set of the Mk.I Hurricane,  as seen in P****, R**** and V**** serials, but NOT the L**** and N**** serials.

 

BUT,  there are TWO types of DH unit fitted to Hurricanes in the L**** and N**** batches,  the initial type is the spitfire type, and is slightly to big for the nosering, like the Spitfire Rotol unit is

again, I refer anyone confused to this

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/

Quote

The initial De Havilland unit was a 2 pitch propeller, with fine and coarse settings, though a modification kit to turn it into a constant speed unit was soon developed and fitted at unit level.

The De Havilland unit initially fitted to the Hurricane was intended for the Spitfire, which has a slightly larger nose ring, so the spinner base is wide for Hurricanes nose.

I surmise that these units were available, and as they made a big difference to performance were fitted and retrofitted to Hurricanes as they were available.

De Havilland then developed a spinner specifically for the Hurricane, which was then fitted.

From what information I have and discussion here this happened in early 1940 during the N**** serial aircraft, which was the 2nd Hawker production batch.

One other point is the DH unit had metal blades. 

these two shots from the Ducimus Hurricane Camo and Markings guide,

Hurricane_DH_Spinner_comparison.png&key=

N2358 has the Spitfire DH unit, N2479 has the Hurricane DH unit.

As can be seen the Spitfire DH is wider and blunter, and overhangs the nose ring, the Hurricane DH is more pointed and is correct diameter.

It's hard to tell, but I think N2358 has a fabric wing, while N2479 has a metal wing.

The position on the landing lights is a wing bay inboard on the fabric wing compared to the metal wing.

 

the Finnish Hurricanes all had the DH Spitfire unit fitted, as seen here, the oversize nature of the spinner is clearly seen.

Hurricane-MkI-FAF-HC453-Lappeenranta-Fin

4 hours ago, michael_hase said:

The rectangular access hatch already caused me some headache. I am not sure if I will do this. The problem is that the surface structure there is interrupted at this hatch and filling in will result in remoulding the rib structure through until the end of the fabric covered section. Whether the result will justify the effort I will see.

probably not worth the bother. 

Possibly worth using some stretched sprue, or Mr Surfacer,   but also not worth stuffing up a lovely little kit

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