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All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here


Sean_M

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25 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Here's one you don't see every day! At first I thought this was a  photo of a Mk IV, but I can just make out the gun ports for the eight .303's and the fact that the landing lights aren't faired over, and the radiator appears to be the unarmored type; note the spinner! No date or location was listed- any ideas as to what, where, and when? Neat modeling possibility, but a shame the serial is not visible.

Mike

 

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/hurricane/hawker-hurricane-69-with-rockets/

 

22 minutes ago, Max Headroom said:

Nice photo. I believe it may be Canadian? The spinner and code on the nose may be a clue?

 

Trevor 

 

Trevor is correct, 

http://www.ascalecanadian.com/2007/10/rcaf-hawker-hurricanes-part-1.html

from @airjiml2 blog

 

Quote

All of these aircraft are 1 (RCAF) OTU birds in XII configuration. All carry spinners and buzz numbers. Notice the spinners are the unique "Canadian" spinner over the Hamilton Standard prop. 

Hurricane_Armed.jpg

 

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Yes indeed, a 1 OTU rocket equipped RCAF Hurricane Mk. XII most likely taken at the 1 ATTD (Advanced Tactical Training Detachment) at Greenwood.  Sadly, I have yet to confirm which Hurricane was #69.

 

Jim

Edited by airjiml2
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19 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I don't know that one, but in February V6701 was JU.F, with the large Rotol spinner. Source Fighter Squadrons of the RAF, a photo on p239.

Thanks for the quick reply Graham, I may go for JU, H, as H was the Sqn designation when I was there.  Thanks for the info on the spinner too, most helpful.

 

Cheers

 

Kevin

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20 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

but in February V6701 was JU.F, with the large Rotol spinner.

for clarity, I'm guessing you mean the Spitfire Rotol unit?

 just many of the V**** series seen to be fitted the Hurricane 'bullet' Rotol unit.

@Jackster this may then help, as Hurricane props and spinner cause a lot of confusion.

 

A word of caution, the new tool 1/48 Airfix Hurricane has the Spitfire Rotol and Hurricane De Havilland props, but is possible to fit either set of blades to either prop,  I have seen two build on here with DH blades on a Rotol spinnner.... 

 

 

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No, but the same photo-call.  Does the third aircraft (J?) have a DH prop?  That's be a little surprising by then.  The Rotol spinner on N is certainly pointier than many of the current warbird (or indeed kit) examples which makes me think that the story of this prop/spinner combination isn't quite as tidy as usually assumed.

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4 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

A word of caution, the new tool 1/48 Airfix Hurricane has the Spitfire Rotol and Hurricane De Havilland props, but is possible to fit either set of blades to either prop,  I have seen two build on here with DH blades on a Rotol spinnner.... 

 

47 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

No, but the same photo-call.  Does the third aircraft (J?) have a DH prop?  That's be a little surprising by then.  The Rotol spinner on N is certainly pointier than many of the current warbird (or indeed kit) examples which makes me think that the story of this prop/spinner combination isn't quite as tidy as usually assumed.

Thank you for the info guys, something I was not aware of. Thanks for posting the photo too as I did not know about the white? band on the tailplane.

 

Cheers

 

Kevin

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That's probably Sky Blue, like the spinner.  The undersides are most likely Sky with the port wing underside Night.  It's a bit unusual to see the fin flash covering the whole of the fin at this time.

 

Some interesting film effects on the roundels.  On F, the red is darker than the blue, suggesting ortho film.  Consistent with this is the darkish Yellow and the very light Sky Blue trim.  Yet on the other two aircraft the blue is much darker.  It seems unlikely that F has been around for so much longer that the blue has faded out.  So are we seeing a late example of a Gloster aircraft painted in the bright prewar colours?  Apparently narrower white bands in the fin flash on N and J, too.  A funny light effect or a difference in factory painting styles?

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Can’t comment on the colour issue, but the fuselage ‘sky’ band seems rather wide and aft of the usual position so that the rear edge touches the tailplane at its root. ‘N’ also has this feature but the one at the back is a bit indistinct to be sure.

 

Trevor

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Quick question...

 

I picked up one of the new tool Airfix 1/72 Hurries the other day (the one with the 85 Sqn example from the Battle of France with the yellow spinner) and I see they've included decals for both C and G coding. A quick look on the internet shows nearly all completed models with the G code but a quick look over the photos at the IWM and a quick shufti in a couple of books would seem to suggest that the aircraft was most likely coded C.

 

@Troy Smith - Troy can you or anyone else confirm the individual aircraft code as either C or G? I'm not going to build this right away but it piqued my curiosity.

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41 minutes ago, Smithy said:

Troy can you or anyone else confirm the individual aircraft code as either C or G? I'm not going to build this right away but it piqued my curiosity.

Hi Tim

This has the photos of G/G, and discussion

 

1 minute ago, Max Headroom said:

This one is definitely VY-G but I’m not sure that’s a yellow spinner?

No, black at this point, but it seems for a while, may-july 1940 85 (and 87) Sq used flight coloyured spinners

and

in a rush, so that's all for now

T

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Thanks Troy, just had a quick poke in those. I see that chap Jonners went for C as well in his very nice build.

 

22 minutes ago, Max Headroom said:

 

That's the fella Trevor. I also have that photo in one of my books and it might just be me but in both renditions it looks more C than G.

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4 hours ago, Smithy said:

Thanks Troy, just had a quick poke in those. I see that chap Jonners went for C as well in his very nice build.

 

 

That's the fella Trevor. I also have that photo in one of my books and it might just be me but in both renditions it looks more C than G.

it's hard to tell, but the photo of 'G' taken winter 39/40,  

large.jpg

and the two shots taken in May 1940 of C or G,  the details visible are identical,  the first shot the erks head is in the way

large_000000.jpg?action=e%26cat=photogra

 

to me I think we are looking at the same plane, but a few months later, all the details are identical

then this, if you look to the right of the rudder above,  you can just see some groundcrew,  and looking at the light and shadows,  this is the same plane as above

large.jpg&key=0452d9eb83f7c18b436f013d32

 

Of course the crucial detail of difference between a G or C is on a grubby panel line... I think I can just see the bottom of the G, but just to the right of the panel line, on the panel curving up from the non slip panel..

Its possible that the fabric panel is a replacement, and as such does not have the rest of the G on it....

If the 85 Sq diary lists what aircraft were by letter (and as the serials have been overpainted that is possible)  then if there is no C listed, then it must be G.

@Graham Boak may have something in his library, there maybe something  "12 days in May"  but my copy is not too hand.

hope of interest

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Thanks Troy.

 

I just had a quick look in Twelve Days in May but unfortunately there's nothing that really helps. Aircraft are listed by serial (no doubt as Brian et al were using the ORBs and logbooks for aircraft specifics).

 

I'm going to scan a couple of photos and blow them up and see if that helps.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi all;

 

New poster here.  What an amazing thread, I've read it all over the last couple of days and here's what I believe I know concerning my current build - Mk1 P2546 as it was in May 1940 in France.

 

Underside - black/white wings with silver dope underside fuselage and engine cowling per AM Regs

Topside - I'm going to paint "A" Scheme as I don't have a pic to go on to show otherwise.

Weathering - lots of paint chipping as this is a G/1 built airframe and it seems the paint didn't stick to these very well

Roundels - this is more tricky (for me) but I think I should go with standard early bright.  Need more advice on this if you have it....

Fin Flash - not sure of the technical term but the version that fills the entire fin forward of the rudder

Wheels - Four spoke

Spinner - Guessing Spitfire Rotol as a retro fit to replace the original Watts

 

How am I doing?  Any input much appreciated.

 

Thanks;

Mark

Edited by mark.au
Clarity in the question asked.
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37 minutes ago, mark.au said:

Topside - I'm going to paint "A" Scheme as I don't have a pic to go on to show otherwise.

 

Fin Flash - not sure of the technical term but the version that fills the entire fin forward of the rudder

Wheels - Four spoke

 

Generally, usually, even numbered Hurricanes had the B scheme and odd numbered had the A scheme - it was the other way round on that other RAF fighter - umm. .  wot was it called?

Fin flash; generally Gloster built had the full coverage type

Wheels; might be 5 spoke

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17 hours ago, mark.au said:

Hi all;

 

New poster here.  What an amazing thread, I've read it all over the last couple of days and here's what I believe I know concerning my current build - Mk1 P2546 as it was in May 1940 in France.

 

Underside - black/white wings with silver dope underside fuselage and engine cowling per AM Regs

See below, i'd be inclined to go black/white split, with underwing roundels, or maybe a(French?) pale blue, I'll try to find the link on this.

OK, this has LOTS of links, note the comments about Bull Halloran and pale blue undersides.

Quote

Topside - I'm going to paint "A" Scheme as I don't have a pic to go on to show otherwise.

 

 

Hmm,  the 3 Gloster built planes in the pic below all have the same scheme but all have odd ending numbers.  Now to find an even ending Gloster built and see if they alternated the schemes.

OK, here we go P2728 is the mirror scheme (note the switch to the Rotol unit by this point)

hurr1-6.jpg

Note this is a faded airframe, with the added yellow ring, and either very faded roundels or bright pre war colours, compare to the fin flash.

 

Quote

Weathering - lots of paint chipping as this is a G/1 built airframe and it seems the paint didn't stick to these very well

Well, again, see pic below. 

Quote

Roundels - this is more tricky (for me) but I think I should go with standard early bright.  Need more advice on this if you have it....

Look at the photo of 73 Sq below, note Z, N2358, Hawker built, 2nd production batch, and compare the roundel colours. 

I suspect in some cases the bright colours were repainted at MU or squadron level.   I can't see any difference in tone in this case.

Quote

Fin Flash - not sure of the technical term but the version that fills the entire fin forward of the rudder

Fin flashes applied from, 10 may 1940, if in France before, it would be field applied.

Note also 1 sq use of rudder stripes.

Field applied fin flashes varied a lot, again, really you want a photo, or a photo of a plane from the same unit.

Quote

Wheels - Four spoke

Yes, 5 spoke only on L**** and N**** batches, after that 5.

Quote

Spinner - Guessing Spitfire Rotol as a retro fit to replace the original Watts

as built , DH Hurricane type.  the Rotols start from the late P26** as far as photos show.

Quote

 

How am I doing?  Any input much appreciated.

 

Thanks;

Mark

I'll add more later

 

17 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Generally, usually, even numbered Hurricanes had the B scheme and odd numbered had the A scheme - it was the other way round on that other RAF fighter - umm. .  wot was it called?

Fin flash; generally Gloster built had the full coverage type

Wheels; might be 5 spoke

the alternating schemes goes out of kilter due the non linear serial batches, for security.   

the other points addressed above.

Sorry, in a rush... more later

 

PS 

a search turns up you asking on Hyperscale

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/hawker-hurricane-mk1-p2546-t499713.html

 

which has a couple of useful little additions

Quote

P2546 to no. 1 Sq, Vassincourt, France March 1940.

 

 

Right, the question is, when do you want to model said plane?  (and I'd also ask why, but that's up to you)

 

Please read this

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/03-Hawker-Hurricane

as it is excellent for sorting out what changes occurred when.

 

Some of your questions are in the 'best guess' category,  

Note Hurricane that were in France pre May 1940, should have undersides split down the centre line Black/White, with underwing roundels

see diagrams on page 15 and 17 of the above links

There are reports that 1 squadron experimented with unofficial pale blue undersides in early 1940.

right, these are 73 Squadrons (1 sq sister unit)

Hawker-Hurricane-MkI-RAF-73Sqn-in-format

 

the front 2 planes are D/P2569 and  J/P2575

 

P2546 would look very much like this, with the De Havilland Hurricane prop

Note also  X/P2647

this is X after 10 may 1940

Hawker-Hurricane-MkI-RAF-73Sqn-TPX-P2647

 

Note addition of sq codes, and the yellow ring on the roundel. (see camo guide)

I'm not sure what 1sq did,  they did overpaint the squadron codes and just leave the individual letter, I don't know if they reinstated them like the above pic.

 

OK Mark

Does this all make sense?  as always, i try to illustrate the details, they are 'best guess' from the limited amount of generally available information,  but until I get to have some time in some proper archives this will have to do.

 

I think I have answered all the questions as best I can. 

 

feel free to ask for clarification, you may wish to start a new thread on this  for clarity

 

cheers

T

Edited by Troy Smith
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The number on the nose and the unusual spinner point to an RCAF example.  The FAA did indeed use RP  Sea Hurricanes for ground attack training, they operated from Inskip in Lancashire not far from where the Firefly units were based, but these were usually (always?) Mk.IIc.  At least some Hellcat pilots will a!so have needed training for RPs, but they were based elsewhere.

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On 6/11/2018 at 17:33, Troy Smith said:

Trevor is correct, 

http://www.ascalecanadian.com/2007/10/rcaf-hawker-hurricanes-part-1.html

from @airjiml2 blog

 

Quote

All of these aircraft are 1 (RCAF) OTU birds in XII configuration. All carry spinners and buzz numbers. Notice the spinners are the unique "Canadian" spinner over the Hamilton Standard prop. 

Hurricane_Armed.jpg

 

 

7 hours ago, Doc72 said:

Could it be a Sea Hurricane? I read somewhere that some Sea Hurricane were equipped with rockets to train future Firefly-pilots.

you must have missed the response above.

Canadian.

Regarding rocket armed Hurricanes

this

overs all the uses I know of apart from the Canadian plane above

and the HMS Vindex shipboard modifications

this is worth a read, 

as it falls into the category of  of "questions you didn't even know you needed to ask"  

 

There's lots of information and links in the links.

 

HTH

T

 

 

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17 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

OK Mark

Does this all make sense?  as always, i try to illustrate the details, they are 'best guess' from the limited amount of generally available information,  but until I get to have some time in some proper archives this will have to do.

 

I think I have answered all the questions as best I can. 

 

feel free to ask for clarification, you may wish to start a new thread on this  for clarity

 

cheers

T

Wow, thank you @Troy Smith for such a comprehensive answer.  I will absorb (and read, reread and then read again 🙂 ) and take it on board for the build.

 

Somewhere you asked when and why this plane; the when would be May 15, 1940 when it was shot down.  The why is the more important (for me); I tend to model mostly for the story behind machine, almost always the pilot.  In this case the pilot was Les Clisby, and Australian who was at the time a leading RAF ace.  The day before he was shot down he forced an He111 down and landed next to it to take the crew POW!  That's a a story worth telling, and to do it and him justice I try and make everything as right as I can.  Eventually I put the stories up on a website I have [just resurrected] called making-history.ca

 

Thanks also to @Black Knight for your input.

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Just picked up an Aldi Hawker Hurricane. At £4.99 it’d be rude not to.

 

Since I’ve built the box markings previously I’m scratching around for another ragwing. Going to Boxart Den and the Profiles I came across this....

 

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Aircraft-Profiles/Britain/WW2/Hawker-Hurricane-I-111/Hawker-Hurricane-I-111-_Page_11-960

 

Specifically the CFS example with the rather snazzy yellow underside.

 

Here is another interpretation.

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hurricane/RAF-Flying-School/images/Artwork-Hurricane-MkI-RAF-Flying-School-4-L1873-Gunnery-Flight-central-Flying-School-Upharon-1940-0A.jpg

 

It even goes as far as to partially reproduce a handwritten serial by the cockpit.

 

I’m guessing it was actually at CFS and as a non combat type is one that would have retained the original wing. However, is the scheme legitimate?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Trevor

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