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All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here


Sean_M

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I would hold back a little on the interpretation of the P-40s. The slide seems to have deteriorated somewhat, but it seems to me that the original desert scheme has simply been overpainted to remove the US markings. The overpaint may simply be fresher Dark Earth with the older coat beneath the red tinge being false. The original 114 beginning of the US Serial on the tails is still sitting on the original Dark Earth (strictly the US equivalent thereof). This colour seen on the tail of nearest aircraft is not that different from that underneath the French roundel on the second aircraft, nor indeed that on its tail. The colour of the central fuselage is a little more difficult to define, but it doesn't look like any standard French colour either.

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I would hold back a little on the interpretation of the P-40s. The slide seems to have deteriorated somewhat, but it seems to me that the original desert scheme has simply been overpainted to remove the US markings. The overpaint may simply be fresher Dark Earth with the older coat beneath the red tinge being false. The original 114 beginning of the US Serial on the tails is still sitting on the original Dark Earth (strictly the US equivalent thereof). This colour seen on the tail of nearest aircraft is not that different from that underneath the French roundel on the second aircraft, nor indeed that on its tail. The colour of the central fuselage is a little more difficult to define, but it doesn't look like any standard French colour either.

Good spot Graham

Think you're correct about that! A clearer shot, clearly showing overpainted star area.

7396b44af82ac3465eac881ee3b27b29.jpg

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HI Rodney

Interesting question.

I'd say neither profile is any good.

The Polish one makes the assumption that as this is in Naval markings, it's a Sea Hurricane. the 2nd photo you post you can just see there is no cut-out for the hook.

The other profiles assumes that this is Day Fighter Scheme.

The option not explored is that as this is tropical plane it's actually in the Desert Scheme.

Note in the 2nd photo of the starboard side, the ground looks wet. If the plane is wet that will play havoc with perceived colour, note in the port shot the lighter upper colour runs the through the cockpit, as middle stone usually does in the Desert scheme.

the 3 different versions of the starboard side suggest to me that this was a print offered for sale as souvenir, and a better print may well be out there.

Finally, a wild card. As this is on display at in the centre of Paris, perhaps this has been repainted in French colours for display.

There are colour photos of P-40's in North Africa in 1943 repainted into French colours, like this,

eg P-40-PICT1816.jpg

and it may explain what looks a like a non standard upper surface scheme, still visible in the best scan.

here's a Caudron C714 wing in original French paint, note the scheme
714stbd_wing.jpg
compare
Fanavia202981a_zps69f2df8e.jpg
No idea about the tail markings though.

If you look closely at the picture of the hurricane by the Eiffel tower (the one below the newspaper cutting) the egg looks very much like a picture of the globe, Its not very clear but to me the shadows on the white disk seem to show western Europe, you can just make out the shapes of France , Uk and the "boot" of Italy.

link to the picture http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Hawker%20Hurricane/HAwker20Hurricane_01_French_zps6f5ecfa2.jpg.html

Selwyn

Edited by Selwyn
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I don't know if this is directly relevant, but there was a thread here about Meteorological Gladiator that may show something of what you're after.

It was an interesting thread, thanks for the heads up. I wasn't able to glean any information on the equivalent Hurricane installation though unfortunately. It sounds like the Hurricane had a much more permanent Meteorological installation than the Hurricane did.
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HI Rodney

Interesting question.

I'd say neither profile is any good.

The Polish one makes the assumption that as this is in Naval markings, it's a Sea Hurricane. the 2nd photo you post you can just see there is no cut-out for the hook.

The other profiles assumes that this is Day Fighter Scheme.

The option not explored is that as this is tropical plane it's actually in the Desert Scheme.

Note in the 2nd photo of the starboard side, the ground looks wet. If the plane is wet that will play havoc with perceived colour, note in the port shot the lighter upper colour runs the through the cockpit, as middle stone usually does in the Desert scheme.

the 3 different versions of the starboard side suggest to me that this was a print offered for sale as souvenir, and a better print may well be out there.

Finally, a wild card. As this is on display at in the centre of Paris, perhaps this has been repainted in French colours for display.

There are colour photos of P-40's in North Africa in 1943 repainted into French colours, like this,

eg P-40-PICT1816.jpg

and it may explain what looks a like a non standard upper surface scheme, still visible in the best scan.

here's a Caudron C714 wing in original French paint, note the scheme
714stbd_wing.jpg
compare
Fanavia202981a_zps69f2df8e.jpg
No idea about the tail markings though.

I think the Caudron C714 scheme seems most likely here.

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If you look closely at the picture of the hurricane by the Eiffel tower (the one below the newspaper cutting) the egg looks very much like a picture of the globe, Its not very clear but to me the shadows on the white disk seem to show western Europe, you can just make out the shapes of France , Uk and the "boot" of Italy.

link to the picture http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Hawker%20Hurricane/HAwker20Hurricane_01_French_zps6f5ecfa2.jpg.html

Selwyn

Selwyn I think you might have something on the globe theory. I can't quite see country shapes on my PC but the blue colour on the center of the roundel has a similar hue to the what would be the water on the globe. I think a bird & a French uniform has to be representing the navy & flying over an egg makes no sense.

A globe on the other hand does.

Also looking at the hat on the profile of the bird & looking at the photos of the hurricane I think that is correct. I found a few French sailors hats from that period & they do have a similar design.

I think the profile of the tail art is almost correct make the egg a globe & it all fits.

Just wish I could prove it now with some other info.

4246acd7-bee0-41c1-9162-a06c2eabb92b_zps

imag0021_zpsbe555ef3.jpg

cats13_zpsc95971ab.jpg

Edited by barneybolac
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  • 2 weeks later...

With further reference to L1584 (of Airfix 111 Sqn decal fame), it went on to serve with 615 Sqn and was shot down on 14 July 1940. What's the likelihood it still had fabric wings on that date? After all, L1592 was serving with the same squadron and hadn't been converted when it was shot down in August. I appreciate that there isn't a modification log for airframes so it'll be about odds unless someone happens to know of a photograph...

John.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Couple of quickies folks,the RAF Hurricane in Airfix,s fabric wing option has decals to cover the open ports on the guns on the leading edge.were they used

pre-war as early as this 1938 scheme and on different builds here and elsewhere I have seen the prop blades done in black with the usual yellow tips or brown

which is correct?

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Within these pages there was a discussion that the patches were not used all the time, with photo evidence to support this. In my references I have photos from pre-war to mid 1940 of Hurris without the red patches, but I can't see patches on pre-war ones.

I think the prop blades should always be black [with yellow tips]. The two-blader was wood, but covered in a doped fabric then painted black. Somebody else will come along and explain that properly, methinks.

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Couple of quickies folks,the RAF Hurricane in Airfix,s fabric wing option has decals to cover the open ports on the guns on the leading edge.were they used

pre-war as early as this 1938 scheme and on different builds here and elsewhere I have seen the prop blades done in black with the usual yellow tips or brown

which is correct?

prop colour

I don't think the red patches came in till later.

I don't recall seeing patches, red or otherwise, on pre-war planes, away from the books, but these may help. No patches.

In this photo the gun ports are like yours are now. I'll have a look at some books later.

2525590932_97c06bc08e_b.jpg

Though in this shot they look bare metal.

3559753440_2e5c2791ef_o.jpg

Hurricane_L1940.jpg

before anyone asks, AFAIK these are real pre war colour pics, post Munich crisis.

No 3 squadron.

Good job on the Hurricane, I don't 'do' 1/72nd, but would pick one of these up cheap.

Probably easier than doing an accurate fabric wing Hurricane in 1/48 th though.

The props were wood with a fabric covering, as can be seen, by the Munich Crisis era, they were black with yellow tips.

the pre-war RAF didn't do a lot of gunnery practice, so painting a fabric patch to match the surrounding wing would be most likely as it's not about to get shot away soon.

from

from http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234967780-airfix-172-hawker-hurricane-mk1-fabric-wing/page-7

I found these imges of early Hurricanes, where I can't see the gun ports. Presumably they must have been covered. The replica in the Tangmere museum has individual red patches over each gun port:

c6sDf2ef.jpg

Pkqw2GE5.jpg

B7PaJwI8.jpg

Ithink this one is Romanian:

ZwVPpfyo.jpg

Photo credits to whoever owns them - they aren't mine, and I'll remove them if necessary. Thanks

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John,

Yes they did, the under fuselage strake and larger area rudder were scheduled to be incorporated from the 75th production airframe on (circa Jan/Feb 1938) with the previous 74 machines being retrofitted as and when they were available. However, as this could not be undertaken on the previous 74 machines at that time at the Hawker facilities it was determined that the work would be carried out by either the Gloster or A.V.Roe facilities (I forget which).

HTH

Dave

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I want to finish the Airfix IIc I'm building as LF363. However, it will have a twist in that I will do it like this......

http://s1271.photobucket.com/user/Mark_Allen_M/media/2-HawkerHurricane-4_zps341c29ce.jpg.html

(Some other interesting Hurricane pictures there too)

It's the only picture of it I've ever seen so there are marking details that unless anyone has another angled shot, I'll have to guess.

Some things are obvious such as the standard post war roundel and tail flash. I can reasonably assume that the upper wing roundel is the same, but how big? I'm guessing roundels and serials underneath as well. If so agIn how big? Whilst talking of the wing I will assume the cannon acces hatches will retain their bulges as the stubs of the cannon fairings remain.

My interpretation of the photo (can of worms I know) suggests a silver doped rudder, but with everything else painted aluminium. Anyone with a different thought? The spinner 'could' be red. It's definitely not black and looking at the roundel, red seems a likely suspect.

The pennant under the cockpit looks odd. Air (Vice) Marshal maybe? There is some sort of standard style RAF crest next to it. In 1/72 detail will be fuzzy anyway!

Finally what's that circular patch behind and below the roundel? I've not seen that before. I'm pretty sure that whatever it was, it will have disappeared in the major rebuild following the crash in the 90's. I'll replicate it with a circular decal so that it will show through the aluminium/silver paint.

Sorry if this seems a lot of questions, but it should make for an interesting model, as I'm building it alongside the rag wing Mk. I.

Thanks in advance!

Trevor

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Well, if the rudder is silver doped (really aluminium) then so should be the rest of the fabric-covered fuselage and tailplane.

bob

You could be right of course Bob. It's a rather poor picture with low tonal contrast.

Trevor

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It looks like an access panel of some kind, perhaps for aircraft electrics/radio? If so, then perhaps it is better represented by a disc of plasticard? A decal would conform to any curve of the fuselage there.

I was thinking of a 5 thou disc sanded back, but then thought could I be delicate enough? Maybe if I flattened the area say by scraping with a scalpel tip the decal disc on top afterwards may still work?

Trevor

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I want to finish the Airfix IIc I'm building as LF363. However, it will have a twist in that I will do it like this......

http://s1271.photobucket.com/user/Mark_Allen_M/media/2-HawkerHurricane-4_zps341c29ce.jpg.html

(Some other interesting Hurricane pictures there too)

It's the only picture of it I've ever seen so there are marking details that unless anyone has another angled shot, I'll have to guess.

Some things are obvious such as the standard post war roundel and tail flash. I can reasonably assume that the upper wing roundel is the same, but how big? I'm guessing roundels and serials underneath as well. If so agIn how big? Whilst talking of the wing I will assume the cannon acces hatches will retain their bulges as the stubs of the cannon fairings remain.

My interpretation of the photo (can of worms I know) suggests a silver doped rudder, but with everything else painted aluminium. Anyone with a different thought? The spinner 'could' be red. It's definitely not black and looking at the roundel, red seems a likely suspect.

The pennant under the cockpit looks odd. Air (Vice) Marshal maybe? There is some sort of standard style RAF crest next to it. In 1/72 detail will be fuzzy anyway!

Finally what's that circular patch behind and below the roundel? I've not seen that before. I'm pretty sure that whatever it was, it will have disappeared in the major rebuild following the crash in the 90's. I'll replicate it with a circular decal so that it will show through the aluminium/silver paint.

Sorry if this seems a lot of questions, but it should make for an interesting model, as I'm building it alongside the rag wing Mk. I.

Thanks in advance!

Trevor

A brief history of LF363

Hurricane LF363 (Mk IIc)
LF363 was built at the Hawker factory at Langley near Slough. It first flew in January 1944 and is believed to be the last Hurricane to enter service with the RAF. The aircraft served with No 63 Squadron at Turnhouse, No 309 (Polish) Squadron at Drem, where it was used on shipping protection patrols off the east coast of Scotland, and No 26 Squadron with whom it flew naval artillery spotting and reconnaissance sorties before the end of the War.
Hurricane LF363 LF363 was then stored in the open air at Langley, waiting to be scrapped. Fortunately, it was rescued in mid-1949, largely through the intervention of Air Commodore (later Air Vice Marshal) Stanley Vincent CB, DFC, AFC. After arranging for LF363 to be made airworthy, Stanley Vincent himself led the Battle of Britain flypast over London in the aircraft in September 1949.
Between 1949 and 1956, LF363 was held and maintained, rather unofficially, by a series of front-line squadrons and Station Flights, being flown on ceremonial occasions and appearing in various films. After a major re-fit at Hawkers, LF363 became a founding aircraft of the Historic Aircraft Flight, the forerunner of the BBMF, when it was formed in 1957.

Are the markings that of AC Vincent? He was an AC at the time. ( Note he was the Group Captain of 303 Polish squadron in the BoB.)

2-HawkerHurricane-4_zps341c29ce.jpg

The flat disc could plating over a camera port, as LF363 was used in a recon role

as seen on here, note similar position to the above.

HurriFRIICLLB835.jpg

When LF363 was later reconditioned, which would involve new fabric, this would have been removed I presume.

The finish looks like overall aluminium dope. A roundel is just visible underneath the wing.

Hurricane upper wing roundel was a 49 inch for a B type, so a 50 inch A type would work, probably the same underwing.

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Troy

Many thanks for the detailed reply. I never knew Hurricanes had a camera port in that position. Underneath yes, but on the side?!

Much appreciated

Trevor

(Btw you may have exceeded your Photobucket bandwidth with the first photo ;) )

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