All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

[Paramedic]

Haha! You got the Hasegawa boxing?

[PhantomBigStu]

Nah, Revell one and an xtradecal sheet

[JohnT]

Hi John

In short, I don't know. Good question.

If they were experimental undersides perhaps even 111 kept them for comparison purposes, or just if you get planes in a new scheme, but not orders to repaint the older ones, what do you do?

The all white 111 markings I'm sure came before. ....ok, here

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234967537-fabric-wing-hurricane-options/

note post #16 and my response in #18

hopefully someone will know more on this.

Troy

I have been scratching around on this as I plan a couple of early 111 machines and I think I might have found an answer or at least more questions to the issues we discussed in the thread about re the underside paint schemes on the early Hurricanes.

From the photos I have come across and the helpful information you provided the story seems to have unfolded as follows.

The very first batch of Hurricanes arriving with 111 had the all silver/aluminium paint under-surfaces. That includes Gillans machine L1555

Then as per the Ducimus publication repeated elsewhere the next batch had the experimental scheme of black/white under-wing colours.

Then I came across the June 2011 issue of Aeroplane monthly which has an article on 111 entitled Hurricane Pioneers. There is a large photo of the squadron in flight captioned circa June 1938 over the first two pages of the article with the underside of L1552 exposed in some detail. I didn't want to scan it on here in case of copyright issues. I think its one seen before but being so enlarged I spotted that it looked very much like the wing undersides were pristine where the white and black paint would have been applied whereas the original aluminium centre section has the usual shading, staining etc. that one would expect. The wing leading edge also shows some signs of wear. The difference in the three sections is very pronounced. My first thought was "Ah ha - a repaint". But L1552 doesn't fall within the serial numbers given by Ducimus. Also L1555 is in the same picture and though further away from camera and not so clear, the same pattern can be discerned as it can on L1548 and the next machine which I think is either L1561 (L1581?)

Possibly the experimental scheme was more widely applied than we have thought?

As always more questions than answers!

John

[Graham Boak]

I thought that the follow-on from the experimental scheme as the extension of the Night and White to the aircraft centreline?

[Edgar]

The black/silver/white was not truly experimental, it was a mistake, probably because Hawker viewed the wings as commencing from the attachment points, and the middle bit being classed (and listed) as the centre section. When Dowding found out, he was less than amused, and ordered units to paint the middle part properly.
The black/white might be classed as experimental, since it was planned (3-3-38,) at first, that only 50 Hurricanes would be painted, and their serials were L1576 - L1625, so any black/white or black/silver/white serials before that batch have probably been repainted by the receiving unit(s.)

The error became known 25-5-38, and, at the same time, it was decided that underwing roundels were not necessary.

Painting the ailerons was its own particular headache, due to balance considerations, so, at first, units were told to return them to the suppliers for painting.

[tango98]

Edgar,

You took the words right off of my keyboard! : )

Dave

[Graham Boak]

Clearly it was "experimental", or if you prefer it "trial" as only 50 aircraft were ordered to be so painted and the results of the trial were to be studied for future action. That Hawkers got it wrong is just one of those things that happen, much to the future bewilderment of enthusiasts and enjoyment of modellers. The point being that the black/silver/white scheme was not (as far as I know) followed by a return to only Aluminium undersides on the trial aircraft, so examples would not have been repainted Aluminium. Let alone examples that hadn't been painted that way in the first place - it was not initially instruction for units to paint those aircraft already in service.

Of this batch, only four (L1581, '83, '84 and '89) were delivered to 111 Sq, presumably as replacements. The batch went to complete 3 Sq's allotment, then 56 Sq, then 87 Sq (incomplete delivery) with one to 32 Sq and one retained by Hawkers as the Rotol trial aircraft G-AFKX. Is it safe to presume that the later aircraft issued to 87 Sq (L1626 onwards) reverted to Aluminium undersides? Or had the black/white underside been fully adopted by then?

I eventually found the June 2011 issue of Aeroplane in the depths of my (mis)filed magazines. All the aircraft in the formation show the same effect of clean outer wings but mucky centre-sections, which I suspect is just the way Hurricanes happened, thanks to the oil leaks from the engine and mud-spreading of the undercarriage. All the aircraft have roundels, so we are not seeing any effect of overpainting after their removal.

[Beard]

I've just cut the first plastic on Airfix's Hurricane (the new one) and have a question, which I don't think anyone else has asked.

What colour would the inside of the radiator fairing be? I'm assuming it wouldn't be bare metal, or would it?

I also want to know how big an area behind the 'gun panels' would be metal rather than fabric but I think that's already been dealt with in this thread, I just need to trawl through.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Beard

[Work In Progress]

Definitely not bare metal, though for a 1/72 model there is little practical difference as on an early aeroplane as it would have been the same painted aluminium finish as the rest of the underneath. Look at Dr.GN's build thread for the fix to the fabric behind the gun panels.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Work In Progress

[Beard]

Thank you. I knew the answer would be found on here.

[Work In Progress]

If the aircraft you are doing has has a repaint, e.g. into the full black-white undersides, then in the absence of clear photo evidence of the individual machine you are modelling then I think it's down to the conscience of the individual whether you follow the black and white split into the rad housing or just leave it aluminium painted. Personally I would leave it aluminium unless I had proof it was otherwise on a specific airframe.

[Beard]

Thanks again mate, especially for the reminder about DrGN's build.

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

I've been looking at my Pilots and Planes Hurricane book and my Sky Models decal sheet and there's some interesting non standard camouflage schemes. I was wondering (as I don't take either as 'gospel') whether there's any truth in them at all.

There's 2 schemes from the SEAC - the first is Dark Green/Dark Earth over Azure/Light Med Blue, the second is Dark Earth/Mid Stone over Med Sea Grey. There's also a Malta scheme of Dark Green/Mid Stone over Sky Blue.

Any ideas?

thanks

Mike

[Troy Smith]

I've been looking at my Pilots and Planes Hurricane book and my Sky Models decal sheet and there's some interesting non standard camouflage schemes. I was wondering (as I don't take either as 'gospel') whether there's any truth in them at all.

There's 2 schemes from the SEAC - the first is Dark Green/Dark Earth over Azure/Light Med Blue, the second is Dark Earth/Mid Stone over Med Sea Grey. There's also a Malta scheme of Dark Green/Mid Stone over Sky Blue.

Any ideas?

thanks

Mike

Yes.

treat with caution.

Pilots and planes http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hawker-Hurricane-Planes-Dominique-Breffort/dp/2915239878

Look to be mostly profiles?

remember - never trust a profile without a photograph. a review on Amazon by a member here, Bo Hermanson cast doubt on some of the profiles. I don't have the book to comment myself but 180 profiles - 40 photos.

Sky Decals - lots of schemes, not noted for accuracy to put it mildly, and ceratinly on the 1/48th sheet the colours are not very good, Med Sea grey codes very light, sky codes a weird colour etc.

You'd need to be more specific as to the details of the non-standard schemes for a better answer.

HTH

[Graham Boak]

Of these three schemes:

1. Probably a light blue underside - Sky Blue, Iragi Blue or Azure Blue. Mediterranean Light Blue is a bit dark, but possible.

2. very doubtful

3. Although specified on an AMO, this scheme was actually a mistake and withdrawn. There are a number of photos which seem to be showing it or consistently exchanged-colour desert scheme, so whichever you think more likely. The serial range seen on these photos could well have gone through to the incorrect instruction during the time it was valid. But is that true for this aircraft? The Guideline booklet on the Hurricane includes it for a 73 Sq aircraft on Malta - but 73 wasn't on Malta.

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Yes.

treat with caution.

Pilots and planes http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hawker-Hurricane-Planes-Dominique-Breffort/dp/2915239878

Look to be mostly profiles?

remember - never trust a profile without a photograph. a review on Amazon by a member here, Bo Hermanson cast doubt on some of the profiles. I don't have the book to comment myself but 180 profiles - 40 photos.

Sky Decals - lots of schemes, not noted for accuracy to put it mildly, and ceratinly on the 1/48th sheet the colours are not very good, Med Sea grey codes very light, sky codes a weird colour etc.

You'd need to be more specific as to the details of the non-standard schemes for a better answer.

HTH

Yes they are colour profiles and I don't take them for granted, when it's non standard. I was really hoping to know in general whether the schemes existed on real aircraft or not. If not I'll ignore them, if they did, I would consider modelling them.

Of these three schemes:

1. Probably a light blue underside - Sky Blue, Iragi Blue or Azure Blue. Mediterranean Light Blue is a bit dark, but possible.

2. very doubtful

3. Although specified on an AMO, this scheme was actually a mistake and withdrawn. There are a number of photos which seem to be showing it or consistently exchanged-colour desert scheme, so whichever you think more likely. The serial range seen on these photos could well have gone through to the incorrect instruction during the time it was valid. But is that true for this aircraft? The Guideline booklet on the Hurricane includes it for a 73 Sq aircraft on Malta - but 73 wasn't on Malta.

Here are the specifics given on the decal sheet/book

1 - Hurricane IIc, LE336, 34 Sqd, Palel, India late 43.

2 - Hurricane IIc, LB615, 28 Sqd, Cox's Bazaar, Burma, April 44 (note the inner cannons are removed)

3 - Hurricane IIa, Z2402, 185 Sqd, Hal Far, Malta, May 41 and Hurricane IIb, Z2961 also Hal Far Malta but August 41.

If the schemes are incorrect, can anyone suggest corrections?

thanks

Mike

[Troy Smith]

Yes they are colour profiles and I don't take them for granted, when it's non standard. I was really hoping to know in general whether the schemes existed on real aircraft or not. If not I'll ignore them, if they did, I would consider modelling them.

Here are the specifics given on the decal sheet/book

1 - Hurricane IIc, LE336, 34 Sqd, Palel, India late 43.

2 - Hurricane IIc, LB615, 28 Sqd, Cox's Bazaar, Burma, April 44 (note the inner cannons are removed)

3 - Hurricane IIa, Z2402, 185 Sqd, Hal Far, Malta, May 41 and Hurricane IIb, Z2961 also Hal Far Malta but August 41.

If the schemes are incorrect, can anyone suggest corrections?

thanks

Mike

1-

Dk green/Dark Earth over med sea grey, spinner looks same tone as fin flash, so probably 'india white' 1 part roundel blue to 5 parts white IIRC.

2 - http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/46105-28-sqn-hurricane-colours/

by the date, if correct, again DG/DE/MSG

this is a 28 sq IIC

Hawker Hurricane Tac R Mark IIC, HW557 'K', of No. 28 Squadron RAF, is prepared for an armed reconnaissance sortie at Sadaung, Burma.

Malta - http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234957764-malta-hurricanes/

Z2402 Malta

Orthochroem film, DG/DE over sky or sky blue

DG/DE over sky or sky blue

found using google.

HTH

T

[Graham Boak]

Re 1: although MSG was the official underside colour for SEAC - at least as of mid-1944 - there a reports of light blue undersides on Hurricanes.

Re 3: The darker colour is where the MS normally is on a desert scheme. So take your choice. For my money Dark Earth will often look darker than this on ortho film, but that's just a bias not an authority.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Graham Boak

[Troy Smith]

Re 1: although MSG was the official underside colour for SEAC - at least as of mid-1944 - there a reports of light blue undersides on Hurricanes.

given the low contrast between the uppers and undersurfaces, I'd say MSG was most likely.

They could be azure blue, if plane was supplied in a desert scheme, and had the Middle Stone repainted.

sky and sky blue usually look a very pale tone in B/W photographs as well.

Re 3: The darker colour is where the MS normally is on a desert scheme. So take your choice. For my money Dark Earth will often look darker than this on ortho film, but that's just a bias not an authority.

Is it?

while variations of the placement of MS/DE are seen, the usual postion of MS and DG is with it running through the cockpit section, on both the A and B schemes.

Which is what Z2402 shows.

the stencilled serial is of note though.

[Graham Boak]

Sorry? Your photo shows the lighter colour running through the cockpit area. Z2042 has the darker colour through the cockpit area.

Desert scheme shows some variations, but the norm is for the Dark Earth to stay the same and MS replace the Dark Green. So the lighter colour is seen around the cockpit - but not every time. The problem appears to be that the b&w shading on the painting diagram remains in the same places as for the Temperate Scheme, unsurprisingly. So it is an easy mistake for painters to put the darker colour paint onto the darker areas shown on the drawing. Spitfires in Desert Scheme seen on the early deliveries to Malta appear to be about 50-50: Hurricanes on Furious show all with the darker colour around the cockpit - ones painted in the theatre appear more varied. That Dark Earth fades considerably in service compared to Dark Green is another factor confusing the matter.

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

So in summary, the India/Burma Hurricanes were most likely the standard Dark Green/Earth over Medium Sea Grey but it's plausible that some may have had Azure Blue undersides at least for a while?

The Malta Hurricanes were most likely the Standard desert scheme but perhaps they did have Mid Stone instead of Dark Earth?

thanks

Mike

[Graham Boak]

Yes to your SEAC comments, but the Malta Hurricanes were usually in Dark Green/Dark Earth, apart from the last delivery (mid 1942) which was certainly in the Desert Scheme. Malta did not consider herself bound by ME HQ rules. Only a few Hurricanes, if any, will have had the Dark Green/Mid Stone scheme, and then only those delivered in early/mid 1941. Earlier Hurricane undersides were night/white, later probably with Sky and/or Sky/Night undersides. One source has claimed that overseas Hurricanes were delivered in Sky Blue; whether this was Hawker's direct responsibility or that of an MU I don't know, but suspect the latter. Stories of sky blue undersides may have been Sky Blue or Azure Blue, probably the latter (I think).

[thueser]

With the release of a new tooled Hurricane Mk.I from Airfix, i've a kit left over. I'd like to know if i can simply put the Italeri Mk.I wings to a Italeri Mk.IIc fuselage for a Mk.IIa conversion?

[Troy Smith]

With the release of a new tooled Hurricane Mk.I from Airfix, i've a kit left over. I'd like to know if i can simply put the Italeri Mk.I wings to a Italeri Mk.IIc fuselage for a Mk.IIa conversion?

you can, but the Italeri kit is so riddled with errors.....http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234935596-sea-hurricane-148-italeri/#entry1390213

why bother? Flog them and buy a decent kits. You'd be wasting two kits, you could make a IC with leftover bits if you wanted. Note the IC was not built in any quantity. Also detailed in the link.

[thueser]

Troy, thank you for your reply. I've read the suggested thread before and know of the glitches. But there is no alternative boxing for an MK.IIa in 1/48 atm. Now i've to make a decision, sell the MK.I or use her for kit bashing.