Troy Smith Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 14 minutes ago, Max Headroom said: However, is the scheme legitimate? what does my sig line say Trevor..... several of the old Profile profiles have been around so long they have become 'Fact' but the source of the profiles remains unknown. This is one... You could build L1952 as seen in Training Command if you handy with a paint brush, the do one of the 1 squadron or 73 squadrom planes with the striped rudder, most only had the code letter eg though you'd need to nick a Spitfre DH prop more here cheers T 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 38 minutes ago, Troy Smith said: if you handy with a paint brush, the do one of the 1 squadron or 73 squadrom planes with the striped rudder, most only had the code letter With 73 Sqn Hurris with the AASF, and squadron code letters it's quite easy and was addressed in Don Minterne's encyclopaedic history of the squadron. The TP codes indicated that an aircraft was one of the original machines to fly to France in September 1939. They weren't applied to Hurris that were delivered to France later and the reason for this seems to have been more to save on effort than any concerns about security or secrecy. Those with TP codes seem to have retained them until they ceased to be with the squadron. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 10 hours ago, Smithy said: With 73 Sqn Hurris with the AASF, and squadron code letters it's quite easy and was addressed in Don Minterne's encyclopaedic history of the squadron. The TP codes indicated that an aircraft was one of the original machines to fly to France in September 1939. They weren't applied to Hurris that were delivered to France later and the reason for this seems to have been more to save on effort than any concerns about security or secrecy. Those with TP codes seem to have retained them until they ceased to be with the squadron. Hi Tim well, it is only one example, but this contradicts the source you quote. (though unit histories are not the place for precise detail of camouflage and markings modellers want) Note X/P2647 in the famous formation shot below, pre May 1940 On 7/12/2018 at 08:15, Troy Smith said: these are 73 Squadrons (1 sq sister unit) this is X after 10 may 1940 Note addition of sq codes, these are not in the formation photo, and are fresher and a different style, and the yellow ring on the roundel. My supposition is before May 1940 the individual letter was all that was needed, after May 10 then the need for squadron identification was required due to the large amount of Hurricane squadrons then operating. The mangled fin is frustrating, as I wonder if 73 (and 1) bothered adding fin flashes to planes with rudder stripes... The now archive only Luftwaffe Experten Message board (LEMB) had a thread on captured Hurricanes that had all the Ebay Germany photos that were being auctioned, and there were quite a few Hurricane wrecks, which did show remarkable consistency in application of marking changes. I've not checked the replacement site recently too see what else has been added. I've not seen @tango98 posting here much recently, he has mass of Hurricane information that is not widely available, and maybe able to add some detail. cheers T 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Troy, I just had a look in the next volume of the squadron history and a couple of others regarding the squadron and you're right squadron codes do appear but still not on every Hurri, so your reasoning for why they were added after the Blitzkrieg sounds correct although because of the amount of action that 73 were involved in it seems it wasn't done to every airframe. BTW, that first photo of 73 in flight is indeed prior to the 10th May, being taken on the 19th April from a Battle with an official photographer (Mr Devon known as "Glorious") in the rear gunner's position. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Lyttle Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 (edited) Sorry, mistaken post. I feel another Hurricane coming on , though. I'm fancying the original silver machine. The little Airfix linen-wingedMk1 has got to be a good starting point.....? I need to go back through this epic "mine of information" thread to see what's the score. (Thanks for Aldi tip off!) Edited December 11, 2018 by rob Lyttle new post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pauly Boy Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Did any of the Dutch Hurricanes flying in the Netherlands East Indies fly without a tropical air filter?? I've seen a couple of colour prints of aircraft without filters and found it odd. I have a Mk IIb in the stash I would like to build with the early Orange triangles. Thanks Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 15 minutes ago, Pauly Boy said: Did any of the Dutch Hurricanes flying in the Netherlands East Indies fly without a tropical air filter?? I've seen a couple of colour prints of aircraft without filters and found it odd. I have a Mk IIb in the stash I would like to build with the early Orange triangles. Thanks Paul Quote Remember ..never trust a profile without a photo.. and in this case.... AFAIK there are no pics of Hurricanes with an orange triangle, or Dutch tricolour stripes, I think only photo is of ANY Dutch operated Hurricane is one being assembled by the road, and no markings are visible. There is supposition that the markings were changed, but that's about it. IIRC there were reports of a Dutch modification air filter, I'll need to do some searches, if I find the relevant threads/info I'll edit it in. EDIT this from https://thejavagoldblog.wordpress.com/2017/01/25/dutch-hurricanes-too-few-too-late/ Quote The desperately needed fighters were erected right there and transported by road to Kemajoran where a team consisting of RAF, ML-KNIL and KNILM personnel worked shifts around the clock in an impressed KNILM hangar. Though hindered by a lack of tools and experience, the first Hurricanes were test-flown by RAF pilots five days after their crated arrival. RAF and ML-KNIL pilots ferried them to Tjililitan, from where six were flown to Palembang I on February 10, 1942, eight went to PI on February 13 and a final batch of nine was ferried to PI on February 14. Eight Hurricanes went to the RAF reserve in Java and the remaining twelve Hurricanes were handed over to the Dutch forces. The only known photograph of KNIL Hurricanes on Java, seen here on the road between Tanjong Priok and Kemajoran note trop filter, and black spinner and https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=161986 Quote I would suggest that there was no time for the luxury of repainting the entire aircraft. By the way, the aircraft concerned had hastily applied orange triangles and, later red-white-blue flag markings. No ML-KNIL serials were ever assigned to these aircraft and they were flown with their RAF serials. The only confirmed aircraft operated by the ML-KNIL were Z5664 and Z5683 whilst Z5616, Z5691 and BE332 are confirmed as remaining with the RAF. this is the origin of the Dutch markings AFAIK Quote n 1941, the Dutch East Indies Air Force ordered twelve Hurricanes, but they were not delivered because there was a shortage of powerplants. In late 1941, a total of 24 Hurricane Mk Is on route to Singapore for the Royal Air Force (RAF) were delivered in crates to Tjililitan at Jave for use by tbe Dutch East Indies Air Force. They had no radio equipment and no oxygen equipment. On 16 February 1942, they were flown to Kalidjati, where they were probably serialed (1 to 24?) and a red - white - blue flag was painted on the tail at Ngoro. Of the two squadrons of the Java Air Force, one squadron defended Batavia. so.... the author of the post on the Axis forum , is a member here @Peter Boer see also https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/theovervalwagenforum/rare-knil-hurricane-picture-1942-t1596.html No mention in the more recent thread of Dutch markings being applied. Hopefully Peter will get a notification and add some detail HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Paul: I don't think that they would have been painted with the prewar triangle. There is a picture of a British Buffalo that was taken over by the NEIAF and that had the tricolour bands. Rob: There's more to the first Hurricane than immediately catches the eye. It had a very different Merlin with the "pagoda" valve heads, so was narrower above the exhausts and higher centrally. Also the canopy was different, but that's a little more obvious. An easier possibility is the civil-registered one that was the first to be fitted with the Rotol prop, but this had a wider nose ring to meet the full diameter of the "Spitfire" Rotol. This is often missed by modellers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Lyttle Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Graham Boak said: easier possibility is the civil-registered one that was the first to be fitted with the Rotol prop, but this had a wider nose ring to meet the full diameter of the "Spitfire" Rotol. Thanks for that, Graham. Looking at pictures and I can see what you are talking about. G-AFKX is very much closer to the basic kit. That first one though, K5083, looks so good. With these little kits so cheap, could be worth setting about one just to see how it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 21 hours ago, rob Lyttle said: I'm fancying the original silver machine. The little Airfix linen-wingedMk1 has got to be a good starting point.....? I need to go back through this epic "mine of information" thread to see what's the score. 2 hours ago, Graham Boak said: Rob: There's more to the first Hurricane than immediately catches the eye. It had a very different Merlin with the "pagoda" valve heads, so was narrower above the exhausts and higher centrally. Also the canopy was different, but that's a little more obvious. as Graham notes, it's not that simple. there are many many detail changes, and the prototype was continaully changed, so it's about picking a point to model. And, the hurricane starter kit lack the spreue with the early Hurricane bits, the two blade watts prop, underside without ventral strake. Other aspects of the prototype are different fuselage and engine panelling, lower cockpit rails. wing with and without armament, retactable tail wheel, rudder without horn balance, different radiators, different undercarriage doors.... and that's from memory.... OK this one has pictures as well as plans pretty much all you need to know is in these, especially the 2nd thread. HTH PS for clarity, the drawings in this post have on them details of what changes happened to the prototype when.... you might want to print them out. the over high canopy in the Airfix fabric wing kit is about right for the prototype though 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 In my hunt for alternative ‘rag-wing’ colour schemes I googled ‘Hawker Hurricanes in France’ and this came out near the top. No serial unfortunately but I show it here mainly for the tail marking. Now I know 601 had their winged sword emblem displayed in the same position but I was unaware of any other squadron carrying out this practice. As for the Hurricane, same type of spinner as per kit, ring and bead sight, early pole type aerial and do I see the merest hint of ribbing on the wing top surface or is my iPhone toying with me? Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I have seen a photo showing a 607 Sq Hurricane with the "prancing lion" badge on the white of the fin flash, which I believe was in the BoB period. It's interesting but probably coincidental that all three known examples are Auxiliary units - any more for any more? Repeating the code on the nose (in white?) is also worth noting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) Famously there are also photos of Glowacki's Hurricane after being shot down showing the bear on the fin flash. I personally think the Auxiliary unit connection could be something. Most of the pre-war auxiliary squadrons were based and established on a regional basis leading to quite strong ties and a sense of belonging. There was also in the pre-war and early war Auxiliaries a sense of themselves as separate and distinct from regular RAF units, so this form of identification could be argued as an embodiment of this on the aircraft. Edited December 12, 2018 by Smithy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 20 minutes ago, Max Headroom said: As for the Hurricane, same type of spinner as per kit, ring and bead sight, early pole type aerial and do I see the merest hint of ribbing on the wing top surface or is my iPhone toying with me? I think the identity of this is known, I'm on a tablet thing, so searching is bit of a pain, but there maybe other shots, Ok, here Detail given as P3832, though it looks an earlier airframe. But if P****, not fabric wing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrzeM Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Do I understand correctly, that you attribute the HE-T Hurricane to Witold Głowacki? Looking on the photos, these are two different planes (note especially placement of the bear, different typo of the aerial mast, different code letter - Głowacki had "P", "R" or "B", not "T"). A few photos of Głowacki plane are here: http://aircrewremembered.com/glowacki-witold.html For the rag-wing Hurricane there is one pretty cool example: PO-C from 46 Suadron in Norwayhttps://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/77454-48-hurricane-fabric-wings/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 hour ago, GrzeM said: Do I understand correctly, that you attribute the HE-T Hurricane to Witold Głowacki? Hi, no I don't, I just remembered where I had seen the photo posted before. I was at work with a little tablet, so no real time to go hunting about or detail checking, but the details visible don't tie in with what I would expect for a Hurricane serialed P3832 too look like, and given the other photos in the link, then HE-T is not P3832. Hmm, I wonder if this was discussed on the LEMB thread on captured Hurricanes. I have memories of the identity being pinned down somewhere, but that maybe the memory of the linked thread. I'll have to have a search and see. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 On 12/10/2018 at 5:16 PM, rob Lyttle said: Sorry, mistaken post. I feel another Hurricane coming on , though. I'm fancying the original silver machine. The little Airfix linen-wingedMk1 has got to be a good starting point.....? I need to go back through this epic "mine of information" thread to see what's the score. (Thanks for Aldi tip off!) If you have access to the Monografie Lotnicze series of books, there are some drawings of the prototype. Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 The prototype is also covered in AL Bentley's drawing set. Looking at these I may be wrong in suggesting that the earlier Merlin was higher but it was clearly narrower at the top, as the two little blisters are missing from the shoulders. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Lyttle Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Much obliged, Troy and Graham. Yes, the more I look, the more I see. And I've now got a LOT more to look at! Fascinating little nugget of aviation history though. It'll be worth a try one day... When you say -over high canopy of the fabric wing, Troy, do you mean the top curve of the aerofoil section, like it's a bit high for the production wing, although (by chance) it's just about right for the prototype wing? Bit more reading for me... Also great drawings @dogsbody, thanks. It's even got the diagonal lay out of the linen. And I found the Bentley drawing in the links. Very tempted to start carving, but may be the next one. Start with G-AFKX for an easy intro. Empty gun and ammo bays and no gun ports in l.e.?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I think Troy means that the cockpit canopy is a little too tall on the Airfix fabric winged kit. The prototype canopy sits in a lower cut-out, so maybe there's some compromise possible? I feel that a civil-registered aircraft would have been unarmed. There is evidence that Hawkers had an armed Hurricane as airfield defence, and (I think) that 'KX was later camouflaged, but I don't think that the two were the same. Presumably, if required Hawkers could readily have obtained at least an unwanted early wing, but I know of no evidence that they did - and it wouldn't have been silver overall then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 13 hours ago, rob Lyttle said: When you say -over high canopy of the fabric wing, Troy, do you mean the top curve of the aerofoil section, like it's a bit high for the production wing, although (by chance) it's just about right for the prototype wing? Quote Empty gun and ammo bays and no gun ports in l.e.?? 12 hours ago, Graham Boak said: I think Troy means that the cockpit canopy is a little too tall on the Airfix fabric winged kit. The prototype canopy sits in a lower cut-out, so maybe there's some compromise possible? I feel that a civil-registered aircraft would have been unarmed. There is evidence that Hawkers had an armed Hurricane as airfield defence, and (I think) that 'KX was later camouflaged, but I don't think that the two were the same. Presumably, if required Hawkers could readily have obtained at least an unwanted early wing, but I know of no evidence that they did - and it wouldn't have been silver overall then. Graham is correct. the Airfix fabric wing Hurricane kit has a too high canopy, but it's look about right for the protoype, you would have to cut into the kit spine and reduce the rail height. As for armament, I presume it just had a standard wing, (with added ballast to simulate weight of guns?)and gun ports sealed over with doped on fabric. It's was for use testing out the new constant speed propeller. compare with standard nose, you can asse the modified nose ring above if you google Hurricane G-AFKX you might find more, but I don't know of other images, there is a key Forum thread on if it ever got metal wings but my browser is not liking it. https://forum.keypublishing.com/forum/historic-aviation/76357-hurricane-g-afkx-question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 @Troy Smith I followed your link and came across this photo https://goo.gl/images/gEByWB Now that would make you scratch your head! Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Lyttle Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 On 12/12/2018 at 22:22, Graham Boak said: think Troy means ...(slaps forhead...) Of course! Sorry about that. . I found a couple of side portrait pics, that and a very similar shot, but nothing showing top or bottom of wing. Just a plan drawing-- no sign of any reg lettering. Just plain wings. I get everything you guys say about drawings. Dyou recollect the Australian plane in nmf/silver? It had, I thought were, metal panels over the gun ports. You'd only need doped fabric patches if you were going to shoot them out in a minute or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 These and the two posted above are from Monografie Lotnicze # 51 Hawker Hurricane Vol.1. Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackG Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Hurricane Serial P2482, mistake or just not seeing the digit correctly? Looks to be a 4, but a P24xx serial range did not exist? http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM 5th document from http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7442661 This archive is for Canadian pilot James Arthur Walker whilst with RAF 111 Squadron in 1940. The only other possibilities if switching out the number 4 are: P2582, P2682, P2882, or P2982. http://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/index.php regards, Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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