All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

[stevej60]

Hi folk's,not a question solely related to the Hurricane but prompted by a re-painting of  an Airfix's kit I did a few year's back,32 Sqn during the Battle of

Britain seemed not to have lower roundel marking's applied I noticed while reading up the aircraft history it was a replacement sent during the battle.

Would replacement aircraft be sent with with the marking;s of the day applied minus the codes to Squadron's? I ask as the lower colour's of my kit are

fine so masked off  and left alone  still with it's  lower marking's which it Has from it's previous scheme.

[Black Knight]

Very often the squadron codes were applied when the aircraft arrived at the squadron from the M.U. which held a few aircraft and sent them to whichever squadron needed a replacement. They did not know who was going to need one in a hurry so they only had national markings on them, applied at the factory.

No lower [under-wing] roundels would place it in the period mid-June to mid-August afair

[stevej60]

3 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Very often the squadron codes were applied when the aircraft arrived at the squadron from the M.U. which held a few aircraft and sent them to whichever squadron needed a replacement. They did not know who was going to need one in a hurry so they only had national markings on them, applied at the factory.

No lower [under-wing] roundels would place it in the period mid-June to mid-August afair

Cheers BN, look's like the photo's are of that period look's likely they would have been present sometime later just thought it might have been unique to

the squadron.

[Troy Smith]

5 hours ago, stevej60 said:

Hi folk's,not a question solely related to the Hurricane but prompted by a re-painting of  an Airfix's kit I did a few year's back,32 Sqn during the Battle of

Britain seemed not to have lower roundel marking's applied I noticed while reading up the aircraft history it was a replacement sent during the battle.

Would replacement aircraft be sent with with the marking;s of the day applied minus the codes to Squadron's? I ask as the lower colour's of my kit are

fine so masked off  and left alone  still with it's  lower marking's which it Has from it's previous scheme.

as  @Black Knight says, no underwing roundels until mid August.

 

AFAIK ALL the 32 sq pics come from the same photo shoot, where a film unit was making a training film on 29 July 1940, at Hawkinge,  and their still photographer took the photos that have become iconic, one shot ending up on a stamp.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3_JZCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=hurricane+32+squadron+fox+film+unit&source=bl&ots=2vOx6Do6ou&sig=bcpkWBeHRyuwLudUQfSYA6Ig7us&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjcoebY2rDdAhVQI1AKHc58AuYQ6AEwE3oECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=hurricane 32 squadron fox film unit&f=false

 

There are also photos of 610 Sq Spitfire form this source/time.

eg

 

Note, one common glitch, many profile and kit decals, and restorations!  have the starboard side reading V-GZ,

eg

 

where the only shot of the starboard side shows the codes to read GZ-Z

 

 

 

a brief aside, the over large squadron codes are from mid 1940,  

as this 32 Squadron Hurricane was lost in France in april or may, and piut on display in Germany

note the smaller codes

 

HTH

T

 

[Andre B]

Yesterday I saw an documentary about the Battle of Britain at Historia Channel. An starting Hurricane draw some attention as i had roundels I havn't seen on an Hurricane before. It has the same typ of roundels in the fuselage sides as painted on the wings. And what it seemed also of the same size.

 

I seen those type B roundels on Spitfire's (one of Airfix 1/72 Spitfire Mk.I have them). But on Spitfire's those fuselage roundels always was rather small compared to that roundel I saw on the mentioned Hurricane.

 

Was this common or was it maybe just an individual Hurricane that had those big type B roundels on the fuselage sides?

 

Cheers / André

Edited September 18, 2018 by Andre B

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Andre B said:

Yesterday I saw an documentary about the Battle of Britain at Historia Channel. An starting Hurricane draw some attention as i had roundels I havn't seen on an Hurricane before. It has the same typ of roundels in the fuselage sides as painted on the wings. And what it seemed also of the same size.

 

I seen those type B roundels on Spitfire's (one of Airfix 1/72 Spitfire Mk.I have them). But on Spitfire's those fuselage roundels always was rather small compared to that roundel I saw on the mentioned Hurricane.

 

Was this common or was it maybe just an individual Hurricane that had those big type B roundels on the fuselage sides?

 

Cheers / André

Documentary series are noted for poor film selection, type b on the sides is not BoB.

 

Type B on Hurricanes, later in war on PR types, and pre-war during and after the Munich crisis.

Again, I recommend reading this

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/03-Hawker-Hurricane

and the Spitfire one

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/01-Supermarine-Spitfire

the Munish Crisis type B varied, a lot, as they were conversion of the existing A1 types

 

as seen here for example, the overpainting of the outer yellow ring is clear

Hurricane by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

for more info I'd need a screen grab.  

[Andre B]

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Documentary series are noted for poor film selection, type b on the sides is not BoB.

 

Type B on Hurricanes, later in war on PR types, and pre-war during and after the Munich crisis.

Again, I recommend reading this

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/03-Hawker-Hurricane

and the Spitfire one

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/01-Supermarine-Spitfire

the Munish Crisis type B varied, a lot, as they were conversion of the existing A1 types

 

as seen here for example, the overpainting of the outer yellow ring is clear

Hurricane by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

for more info I'd need a screen grab.  

 

Hello and thanks Troy,

 

I fact they where talking about the prelude to the BoB and showed a "clip" wich was said to be an starting Hurricane from an squadron placed in Belgium during the first months of the war before the german attack (as in the BoB movie and the tv-serie "Peace of Cake" both more or less starting in France before BoB).

 

The Hurricane starting from the airfield in Belgium hade type B roundels that was (what I saw) big as the same roundels on the wings and covered almost the hole fuselage. Bigger than the size of  the roundels on the Hurricane on Etienne's picture in your reply. So for sure it was som conversion of the A1 types where the yellow colour was painted blue and the white painted red...

 

Thanks again Troy.

 

Cheers / André

Edited September 18, 2018 by Andre B

[Graham Boak]

Belgium was neutral.  There were no Hurricane squadrons based in Belgium.  I don't know for sure the film clip you mean, but if it was the same one I saw recently the Hurricanes were carrying the prewar squadron codes, if additional confirmation is needed.

 

[Andre B]

30 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Belgium was neutral.  There were no Hurricane squadrons based in Belgium.  I don't know for sure the film clip you mean, but if it was the same one I saw recently the Hurricanes were carrying the prewar squadron codes, if additional confirmation is needed.

 

In fact it was one of the History Channels episode of "Lost Evidence" that concerned Battle of Britain.

 

I didn't look at it with that much attention. But I woke up when they mentioned an Hurricane squadron placed i Belgium and showed a starting Hurricane with the big type B roundels on the fuselage. That Hurricane was painted black and white without roundels on the underside. Just the big type B roundels on fuselage sides and on wings and no other markings (but for sure it doesn't have to be an Hurricane in Belgium).

 

But Peter Brothers an ex Hurricane pilot said in an intervjue in that episode that they where sent to Belgium the 10th May and operated from an little airfield not for more than a day.

- "It was absolutely caos an nobody knew what was happening".

 

 

I think that is information that can be confirmed...

 

Cheers / André

 

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Andre B

[Graham Boak]

Ok, operated for one day after the opening of the German offensive.  The photos still show prewar aircraft.

[Andre B]

9 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Ok, operated for one day after the opening of the German offensive.  The photos still show prewar aircraft.

 

I newer said that the aircraft showed was BoB aircraft's or aircraft's that competed in the openings of the German offensiv. 

 

I just mentioned where I saw those historical clips. And an Hurricane squadron was operational in Belgium if only for one day. Maybe someone knew wich Hurricane squadron?

 

Cheers / André

[Selwyn]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Belgium was neutral.  There were no Hurricane squadrons based in Belgium.  I don't know for sure the film clip you mean, but if it was the same one I saw recently the Hurricanes were carrying the prewar squadron codes, if additional confirmation is needed.

 

There were no RAF  Hurricane squadrons based in Belgium. The BAF had their own hurricane squadron, was somebody getting confused about this in the programme?

 

Selwyn

[Beard]

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Documentary series are noted for poor film selection.

Apologies for the thread drift but this really gets my goat.

I once saw some footage of Il-2s used in a documentary about Dunkirk and that's not to mention the Fw190 that's always used in BoB stuff.

Perhaps there's a job for us in the media.

 

[Andre B]

23 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

There were no RAF  Hurricane squadrons based in Belgium. The BAF had their own hurricane squadron, was somebody getting confused about this in the programme?

 

Selwyn

So Peter Brothers was an BAF pilot and not an RAF pilot? Or he wasn't flying from an airfield in Belgium?

Edited September 18, 2018 by Andre B

[Andre B]

6 minutes ago, Beard said:

Apologies for the thread drift but this really gets my goat.

I once saw some footage of Il-2s used in a documentary about Dunkirk and that's not to mention the Fw190 that's always used in BoB stuff.

Perhaps there's a job for us in the media.

 

For sure there's a job for us in the media. I have lost count for how many times I've seen the same aircraft's, tanks and soldiers what so ever when it comes to documentary's about Dunkirk, Stalingrad, Normandie, Arnhem and/or Ardennes...

 

Cheers / André

[Graham Boak]

I think that we are all getting tangled up.  Brothers was an RAF pilot.  His biography will tell us which squadron he was in.  Other books will tell us which squadron operated from Belgium for a day.  Either way we can find the codes, but as the one in the film didn't carry any codes then it wasn't there anyway.  The ones I saw the other night were carrying TM codes.

 

i think this was in the running series on a model Battle of Britain, which is great fun but commits the usual crimes of using non-period film (understandable given the shortage of the real thing),  However I'm a bit disappointed that James Holland didn't keep a better eye on repetition of the old myths and half-truths that have been wheeled out, and a bit more attention to detail on the graphics would have helped too.  Hurricanes didn't have A roundels on the upper wings and Bf109s didn't escort the August 15th raid from Norway to the North-East.  I can understand why the flying models can't be all accurate to the period, but the graphics could!

 

However, we can get gems from the media's ignorance.  One DVD on the Bf109 had commentary about the inferiority of the Italian fighters, but to illustrate this had film of Reggianne Re1005s!  And the French Air Force was represented by post-war Swiss Dewoitine/Morane 406s.  What's the chance of finding them on their own?  In this TV programme there was film of Churchill walking in front of an engine test-bed Battle - Sabre I think.  At least nobody claimed it as a Hurricane.

[Andre B]

What I can found out from here in Sweden Peter Brothers was in an attatchment of the 32nd Hurricane squadron together with the 3rd squadron that was ordered to France in those early days of may 1940. And that this detachment was ordered to the mentioned airfield in Belgium 10th of may. But in the rather caotic times that came during the German attack the 3rd squadron with the detachment from the 32nd squadron was ordered back to UK after only eleven days. What I understand Peter shot down two aircraft's during this short time.

 

I think you who live in UK can tell more about the facts during this period when it comes to Peter Brothers, 32nd and 3rd squadrons actions in France and Belgium...

 

Cheers / André

[Graham Boak]

The two best books on the subject are After The Battle: The Battle of France by Peter Cornwell.   Less comprehensive but perhaps more to the point, Brain Cull's Twelve Days In May, which specifically deals with the Hurricane units.

[Graham Boak]

 A quick look in Cornwell shows that 3 Sq was at Merville throughout the campaign - until the withdrawal of the Hurricane units, anyway.  32 Sq was in the UK throughout.  However, four pilots were detached to 3 Sq on 14th May. On 17th May a detachment (actually 11) of 32 Sq flew to France, returning home that evening.  The following day they went to Moorsele, which is likely to be Moorslede in Belgium, just across the border from Lille.  The following day they were back in France at Merville.  There's a reference to Ft Lt Brothers in the index, supposedly on p326 but I couldn't find him there.  It did include a Do17P claimed by another 32 Sq pilot. 

 

12 Days in May has four references to Brothers. p225 has  him arriving at Moorsele on the 18th to find 615 Sq in occupation.  p252 on 19th  has 11(?) Hurricanes of 32 Sq in combat with Dorniers and Bf109s.  Brothers claimed a Bf109 as a probable but it may have been the same one claimed by Flinders.  On the 20th Merville was evacuated, with all flyable Hurricanes returned to England, but 32 Sq (presumably those originally left behind) were in action from Manston.

 

615 appears to have left Moorsele on the 18th (or perhaps 19th), being at Abbeville initially, then at Norrent-Fontes on the 19th, and evacuated on the 20th.  I've not yet found a date for their arrival at Moorsele, but it seems to have been not long before 32 Sq.

[Andre B]

5 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

 A quick look in Cornwell shows that 3 Sq was at Merville throughout the campaign - until the withdrawal of the Hurricane units, anyway.  32 Sq was in the UK throughout.  However, four pilots were detached to 3 Sq on 14th May. On 17th May a detachment (actually 11) of 32 Sq flew to France, returning home that evening.  The following day they went to Moorsele, which is likely to be Moorslede in Belgium, just across the border from Lille.  The following day they were back in France at Merville.  There's a reference to Ft Lt Brothers in the index, supposedly on p326 but I couldn't find him there.  It did include a Do17P claimed by another 32 Sq pilot. 

 

12 Days in May has four references to Brothers. p225 has  him arriving at Moorsele on the 18th to find 615 Sq in occupation.  p252 on 19th  has 11(?) Hurricanes of 32 Sq in combat with Dorniers and Bf109s.  Brothers claimed a Bf109 as a probable but it may have been the same one claimed by Flinders.  On the 20th Merville was evacuated, with all flyable Hurricanes returned to England, but 32 Sq (presumably those originally left behind) were in action from Manston.

 

615 appears to have left Moorsele on the 18th (or perhaps 19th), being at Abbeville initially, then at Norrent-Fontes on the 19th, and evacuated on the 20th.  I've not yet found a date for their arrival at Moorsele, but it seems to have been not long before 32 Sq.

 

As Peter Brothers said that he was in Belgium the 10th of may he probably had his own loggbok or a very good memory. Most pilots remember those days rather good.  And what about groundcrew, fuel and ammo? He can't ben ordered to Belgium and Moorslede alone with just one Hurricane?

 

Cheers / André

[Graham Boak]

32 Sq didn't operate out of the UK, and hence from Moorsele (which is still an airfield close to Moorslede), until the 18th.  12 Days in May quotes him giving an impression of what he saw on that day.  I suspect that the 10th is a misprint rather than a failure of memory or records.  615 Sq was already there, so the necessary ground staff and equipment will have been provided.  They too had only just arrived, then or the previous day.  There were a number of Hurricane units "half-deployed" in those desperate days.  All of them flew to bases with previously-established units and flew alongside them.    These new units retained a significant portion of their strength at their home base in the UK.  There is no mention of any of them taking ground crew with them, and I suspect that all transport would have been totally overworked already.  Given that these French based units would have been considerably reduced from their establishment strength, there'd have been plenty of spare ground crew to take care of the visitors.

 

Having said that, in the same period Vitry was temporarily home to over 50 Hurricanes thanks to the retreat, and this is said to have overwhelmed the facilities - although the Germans helped by destroying eleven of them in one raid.  Merville may have been approaching the same condition on the 20th.  The RAF were running out of airfields even quicker than they were running out of Hurricanes.

 

The reference to Brothers on p326 (I did find it eventually) in The Battle of France is also dealing with the battle described in 12 Days in May.  He doesn't otherwise appear in either work connected to any other claim in the few days spent in (or very near!) France, but it was a very confused time.

[Jeff Wilson]

I have a question regarding the Mk.IIB - did they all have 12 guns or did some only have 8?

 

I ask in relation to TallyHo decal sheet 48005 which has decals for Z5159 'GV33' at Vaenga in 1941, and the sheet states the aeroplane is a Mk.IIA. The serial number however, defines Z5159 as a IIB. There is a very clear photograph online (Google 'Z5159 Vaenga') of Z5159 in its revetment but the angle doesn't reveal if the outboard gun panels were present. I fancy doing GV33 from the Hasegawa Mk.IIB kit but I'd like confirmation of the presence or lack of outboard guns and panels before I attack the plastic.

 

Anyone have better photographic evidence one way or the other?

 

Best, Jeff

[Graham Boak]

All Mk.IIBs had the provision for 12 guns when they were built.  In the Middle East and Far East, the outer guns were often removed to improve the agility of the aircraft, and the fighter-bombers could only manage 10 anyway.  However you are talking about the new production ones sent to Russia, so I've no hesitation in saying that if the serial says it is a Mk.IIB, then it has 12 guns.  The question becomes the accuracy of the source for the serial.

 

PS  Fighter Squadrons of the RAF describes both units as re-equipping (or forming, in the case of 134) with Mk.IIB.  If you look at the aircraft behind GV.33 you can just make out a dark dot where the outer guns are, or at least I can in my copy of FS of the RAF.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Graham Boak

[Jeff Wilson]

Cheers Graham. I had pretty much convinced myself that it was a IIB and that TallyHo got it wrong - you've confirmed it. 12 guns it is then.

 

Best, Jeff

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilson said:

Cheers Graham. I had pretty much convinced myself that it was a IIB and that TallyHo got it wrong - you've confirmed it. 12 guns it is then.

 

Best, Jeff

AFAIK all the Hurricane's sent out with 151 Wing were IIb's, all the photos that show the relevant wing show this as well.