All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Fin said:

Could someone please say what this thing actually is and if it has to be transparent or it can be painted over?

AFAIK a position light. Small clear 

 

from the amazing walkround here

my only complaint is is not a Mk.Ia  ..... just Mk.I

[Casey]

As far as I am aware it was a morse communication light to use when radio silence was required. It was a white lamp.

 

[Black Knight]

No, the Morse lamp was underneath, on the centreline, just aft of the rear of the radiator shell

[Casey]

3 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

No, the Morse lamp was underneath, on the centreline, just about under the cockpit

I always thought it was up there either as an option to make communication harder to detect from ground... good to know. I always made them as white light though.

[Black Knight]

The point of the Morse light was to signal messages to the ground so you want it very visible

There are tales of pilots, not just of Hurricanes, signalling each other using their landing lights

[Casey]

Does it mean I interpret this switch wrong, or is it fake artifact?

 

[Black Knight]

That, afaik, is from a Mk.XII

We are discussing the lights on a Mk.I

[Casey]

8 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

That, afaik, is from a Mk.XII

We are discussing the lights on a Mk.I

I saw same light on top of an Mk1 photos and made wrong connection. Thanks for fixing my mistake there!

[Troy Smith]

49 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

That, afaik, is from a Mk.XII

We are discussing the lights on a Mk.I

 

32 minutes ago, Casey said:

I saw same light on top of an Mk1 photos and made wrong connection. Thanks for fixing my mistake there!

A look at the Mk.I manual shows a what looks to be the same controller,  so I think this applied to all marks.  Bear in mind the Hurricane airframe was nearly all the same from early 1940 onwards.  by this, apart from changes to the engine and systems, and armament fit and systems, nothing else changed.

@dogsbody has a decent photo of a Canadian Mk.I cockpit that might show this,  but given it's postion, starboard cockpit wall just behind the IP, it's not often photographed.

it's item 62 in in this image from the Mk.II pilots notes

 

@Black Knight  Thanks for the info on the morse, a detail I'd not really thought about. 

 

[dogsbody]

My two Hurc-pit photos:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[StevSmar]

On 7/8/2022 at 2:50 AM, Casey said:

Does it mean I interpret this switch wrong, or is it fake artifact?

That's a lovely display you have there!!!!!

The Hurricane II manual indicates that the light in front of the aerial is for Upward Identification (Morse code):

 

The wiring diagram shows the morse code switch connected to the upward and downward Identification Lamp (Figure 22, left side):

 

I don't have a full version of the Hurricane I manual, I'd be surprised though if the MkI differed from the MkII with respect to the functionality of the Upward Identification Lamp and the Morse Code switch.

Edited July 13, 2022 by StevSmar
Additional comment on MkI

[StevSmar]

On 6/30/2022 at 5:03 AM, Troy Smith said:

As in a photo.  No... as one comment said regarding this "in ebay we trust"  as in perhaps a German photo of the crashed plane may surface....

 

...this is worth a read

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235084000-hurricane-yugoslav-built-captured-and-used-as-a-hack-by-jg54/

... as it has the above quote, links to review of of Hawker, The Yugoslav Story and more....

Thanks for the reminder about the reference in the Yugoslav Story book, I'll re-read that section again.

[Max Headroom]

Not a question, but just found this at the excellent cafe in Chesil Beach

 

 

A bit of Hurricane apparently, it’s exhibited with remnants of a Merlin nearby. No idea of the provenance but there is a bit of Interior Green on it. Not scientific by any means but it’s not a million miles away from Hu78.

 

Usual caveat about weathering, exposure, salt contamination etc.

 

Trevor

 

[Max Headroom]

Wandering the interwebby again and I came across this picture of a pranged Hurricane IIA.

 

https://pin.it/5MwN4cF

 

What is that on the rudder- black and yellow stripes?

 

Trevor

[Troy Smith]

Just now, Max Headroom said:

Wandering the interwebby again and I came across this picture of a pranged Hurricane IIA.

 

https://pin.it/5MwN4cF

 

What is that on the rudder- black and yellow stripes?

 

Trevor

I think this has been discussed here, that pic and another  are up on asisbiz

captioned

Hurricane I RAF 4 Observer Advance Flying Unit Z4048 at West Freugh Scotland

 

and this

Hurricane Mk IIA YE/Y - Z4048 No. 4 Observer Advance Flying Unit LAC Ken Boothman 3/11/1943 West Freugh

 

Air Britain has Z4048 as  Mk.I, 1423 flt/ 289, S.O.C,  23.10.44

 

OK, thread

 

"These photos were taken 3 November 1943. The serial of this aircraft was Z4048 which was attached to No. 4 Observer Advance Flying Unit at West Freugh, Scotland, as confirmed by the notes on the back of the photos.

Aircraft crashed by LAC Ken Boothman whilst he was testing the engine after maintenance. He survived the crash.

The reference I have of the Z4048 is this:

Quote

1423 fighter flight came into being on the 10th of June 1941 when six aircraft arrived. They were Mk.II´s Z4575, Z4607

, Z4617, Z4631, Z4639 and (Mk.I) Z4702. On the 15th of July, 1423 fighter flight became independent, when 98 squadron was disbanded. After that,

it adobted the unofficial name "Air Defence Iceland".

Later, or on the 26th of July, four more Hurricanes arrived. They were Z4037, Z4045, Z4048 and Z4049.

That made a total of 10 Hurricanes for 1423 fighter flight.

1423 fighter flight was disbanded in Descember 1941, and the remaining Hurricanes were shipped to the UK on the 22nd of Descember."

 

it should be noted that Z4018 was a IIA.  last of the batch, whileZ4022 was the first of a batch of 550  Mk.I's. 

 

So, if the serial is right it's a Mk.I,

Mk.I's rebuilt as Mk.II's got new serials BTW.

 

YS is 289 Sq

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._289_Squadron_RAF

"The squadron formed at RAF Kirknewton on 17 November 1941 and was equipped with Lysanders and Blenheims, Hurricanes and Hudsons to provide practice for the anti-aircraft defences in Scotland by towing targets and conducting simulated attacks. The squadron moved to RAF Turnhouse and RAF West Freugh, then operated other aircraft types from bases in England before it was disbanded at RAF Andover on 26 June 1945."

 

So 289 Sq fits with time and the use.

 

The stripes match the roundel surround,  the appeareance in the first phoptos maybe oil over large part of the airframe.

 

Red codes?   And from the contrasts, possibly still in TLS? 

I'll @Graham Boak as a good source with an extensive library.

 

HTH

 

 

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Z4018 was a IIB, last of its serial block, built by Hawker, Taken on Charge 27 July 1941. Z4022 was the first of its serial block, a Gloster built mark I, taken on charge 13 February 1941.  All the Iceland Hurricanes were Gloster built mark I.  1423 flight officially disbanded in October 1943 at Ouston (Flying Units of the RAF by Alan Lake.)

Z4575, Z4607, Z4617, Z4631, Z4639 and Z4702 were shipped on the Empire Energy, Code Name Alabaster dated 21 May 1941, reported with 1423 flight on 16 June, 6 days after the flight officially formed.   98 squadron summary of events says on 4 June 1941 a party was sent to Reykjavik to erect the Hurricanes which had arrived in crates, on 8 June the first two Hurricanes were flown to Kaladarnes arriving 20.30 hours.  On 10 June the remaining 4 Hurricanes were flown in, along with the arrival of 14 new men as ground crew.  The Hurricanes form a flight of 98 squadron.  First scramble on 14 June. 

98 squadron summary of events reports on 15 July the Hurricane flight personnel moved to Reykjavik, On 19 July WAR/CC/216 dated 23 May 1941 received from Air Ministry establishing 1423 flight with 8+2 Hurricanes and 2 Battles.  Z4037, Z4045, Z4048 and Z4049 received in crates on 26 July 1941, as well the Hurricane flight personnel separated from the squadron to operate independently.  Two of the newly arrived Hurricanes were air tested on 30 July.  Z4037, Z4045, Z4048 and Z4049 all have a deleted En Route to ME entry, dated 8 July 1941, the next entry is Iceland, 1423 Flight 26 July. 

 

Z4607 Crashed at Ksja Iceland 23 September 1941, the rest returned to Britain, all reported at 47 MU on 11 February 1942.  Z4575 and Z4671 ended up in India, Z4702 with the RN, Z4037 to Ireland, the others stayed in Britain.

 

Z4048, 5 MU 12 Feb 41, 47 MU 25 Jun 41, En route ME 9 Jul 41 (Cancelled), Iceland 1423 Flt 26 Jul 41, 47 MU 11 Feb 42, RIW 24 Feb 42, 13 MU 9 May 42, 46 MU 19 May 42, 42 SLG 25 Jun 42, 22 MU 23 Jul 42, 289 Sqn 30 Aug 42, FA Cat AC 2 Nov 43, ROS 10 Nov 43, 289 Sqn 10 Dec 43, 22 MU 12 Apr 44, Cat E 23 Oct 44

[ClaudioN]

22 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

FA Cat AC 2 Nov 43, ROS 10 Nov 43

That Hurricane seems to have had some argument with a wooden pole while flying rather low. ROS = repaired on site, I believe, which is remarkable as the damage appears extensive. Wing change, maybe?

[Graham Boak]

New outer wing panel: there are stories of OTU Hurricanes with one fabric outer panel and one metal.  This is where a Hurricane breaks down for production. packing, etc.

[Broadway]

8 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

That Hurricane seems to have had some argument with a wooden pole while flying rather low. ROS = repaired on site, I believe, which is remarkable as the damage appears extensive. Wing change, maybe?

A quick google found this https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/123494-interesting-hurricane-photos

 

"Form 1180 says No.289 Squadron.

Accident happened on 2nd at 11:10 hrs on the ground at West Freugh.

Aircraft on ground test jumped chocks and hit telegraph pole.

Type given as Hurricane I.

Accident Cat AC"

[Plastic Hacker]

W/T stencils on Hurricanes question...

 

I had a trawl through all the IWM photos tagged 'Hurricane' and found 8 from the 1940-41 period where the W/T stencil aft of the cockpit, starboard side was readable.

 

All consisted of two lines of text: top line was always 'G 5/' or '41H/' followed by a five or six digit number and second line was always 'CX'.

 

Question is, what do the five or six digit numbers refer to? I assume 'G 5' is Gloster built and '41H' is Hawker production?

 

Alan.

 

[zegeye]

Hello folks, 

Have a question about Hurricane PR Mk II B in India. What kind of wing it has? The good known photos of dark blue hurricane PR from India (IWM) are signed as Mk II B but from the top view it is clearly seen that it has Mk II c wing withought guns. So it could be wrong signed or....? Maybe someone knows if Mk II b has it own wings or different. And if these wings have the guns in place or removed? 

Edited September 18, 2022 by zegeye

[Troy Smith]

28 minutes ago, zegeye said:

So it could be wrong signed or....?

OK, Air Britain lists BM969 as a IIB,  but, note even if you put C wings on a IIB, it would still technically be a IIB.... 

 

There are mistakes in the records.  I recently saw a photo of a  plane listed in the records as a IIC going to Russia, the photo clearly shows a IIA or B. in SEAC markings, with Calcutta written on the back... 

 

The other possibility is these bulges are something to do a with a camera fit. They look high for a C wing, and I can't see the inner bulge....

 

"Hawker Hurricane PR.IIB (BM969) of S Flight, No. 3 Photographic Reconnaissance Unit, based at Dum-Dum, India, in flight over Bengal."

 

this is IIC to compare the wing bulges, I can't see a smaller inner bulge above

 

 

note  Hawker Hurricane PR Mark IIB, BM969, of S Flight No. 3 Photographic Reconnaissance Unit, based at Dum Dum, India, in flight over West Bengal. #### Reversed image ####

 

the taken from above image is here on the IWM site

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209738

 

there is a zoom facility the +/- button,  if you zoom the image, you can clearly see the doped over gun port in the port wing leading edge.

I screen shot this, there is a diagonal line just up from the bulge, which is a A/B wing gun hatch. 

 

Hurri BM969 wing close up _CI121 caption 3PRU India by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

28 minutes ago, zegeye said:

Maybe someone knows if Mk II b has it own wings or different. And if these wings have the guns in place or removed? 

a dedicated PR plane would have the guns removed.  

 

So.... very very interesting.   Seems possible this is field modification for wing cameras?  

Hmm, @ben_m  ? 

 

 

[zegeye]

Thank you for the reply.  As you made the zoom photo... is it clear for me that is not a IIC wing.  But maybe it is some extra fuel tank instalation?  There are some fuel stains on the wing?  And maybe this is a ''bulge'' with some venti pipe next to it?   Like in Spitfire PR Mk 11 ?

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

On 17/09/2022 at 19:33, Plastic Hacker said:

I had a trawl through all the IWM photos tagged 'Hurricane' and found 8 from the 1940-41 period where the W/T stencil aft of the cockpit, starboard side was readable.

All consisted of two lines of text: top line was always 'G 5/' or '41H/' followed by a five or six digit number and second line was always 'CX'.

Question is, what do the five or six digit numbers refer to? I assume 'G 5' is Gloster built and '41H' is Hawker production?

No idea about the 5 or 6 digit numbers, if they are the same on each aircraft then it suggests a part number, serial numbers would be needed to confirm who built the aircraft, G and H do suggest Gloster and Hawker.

 

BM969 was built as a IIB, it seems clear the B and C wings were interchangeable enough to allow field conversions.

 

According to Eyes For The Phoenix by Geoffrey J. Thomas the CBI PR Hurricanes only carried fuselage cameras, the tactical reconnaissance IIB had the outboard 4 machine guns removed the IIC generally the outboard cannon, the photo reconnaissance versions had all armament removed.  "Additional internal fuel tanks" installed.  The book's caption of the BM969 photograph dates it to mid 1942, noting the 2 inch yellow bands around the upper wing markings.  The book also notes the first PR Hurricanes in mid 1942 from the Middle East.

[Plastic Hacker]

Another question if I may...

 

On RDM2 Hurricanes, painted at the factory or MU, what colour would the stencilling (if any) have been?

 

Alan.