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All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here


Sean_M

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13 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

An observation rather than a question - looking at the periphery of the well known picture of Clowes' P3395, I noticed that the fin flash of the aircraft om the next revetment had a reversed fin flash. A browse through other photos suggests this wasn't unique.

A question to go with the observation - which way round were the stripes on the other side of the fin?

Were both sides reversed, ie blue leading, or did the painter paint the stripes in the same order, ie in this case blue on the left, white in the middle and red on the right?

I guess unless we have photo's of both sides we'll never know for sure.

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13 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

An observation rather than a question - looking at the periphery of the well known picture of Clowes' P3395, I noticed that the fin flash of the aircraft om the next revetment had a reversed fin flash. A browse through other photos suggests this wasn't unique.

A question to go with the observation - which way round were the stripes on the other side of the fin?

Were both sides reversed, ie blue leading, or did the painter paint the stripes in the same order, ie in this case blue on the left, white in the middle and red on the right?

I guess unless we have photo's of both sides we'll never know for sure.

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Ok Please help, I know Im not silly or stupid. Ive been looking for over an hour for blueprints/line drawing's. However no matter which combination I use of words, I just cannot find a set of line drawings for a Hurricane IIb. I either get drawings for IIa’s with 8 guns, IIc’s with four cannons, or IId’s with two cannons slung underwing. I just cannot seem to find any with the twelve gun set-up. Photo’s I can find all day but no drawings that are showing the panel lines. 

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4 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Photo’s I can find all day but no drawings that are showing the panel lines. 

if you have any that show structure/rivet lines, u you can work it out,  as the gun bays were fitted round the existing structure, basically you can eyeball them. 

as seen here 

hurricane_iia_10_of_31.jpg

 

Not ideal I know.    Also, be wary of Hurricane plans.  A lot are often a bit off, and I don't that Bentley ever did the IIB in detail, he did do roughs of the MkII/IV, but can't recall if he drew the wing panelling

 

I think the very old PSL History and and how to model them book had the IIB wing, but mine is buried 'somewhere' at the mo....

 

HTH

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8 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Ok Please help, I know Im not silly or stupid. Ive been looking for over an hour for blueprints/line drawing's. However no matter which combination I use of words, I just cannot find a set of line drawings for a Hurricane IIb. I either get drawings for IIa’s with 8 guns, IIc’s with four cannons, or IId’s with two cannons slung underwing. I just cannot seem to find any with the twelve gun set-up. Photo’s I can find all day but no drawings that are showing the panel lines. 

Dennis,

 

See if this photo of the Arma Hurricane IIb wing sprue gives you what you need- I would imagine they are accurate, seeing as how they seem to be pretty meticulous in their research! If you're doing a 1/72 model, maybe getting the basic sprues for the IIb kit, if they are available, might be your best bet. If I can find any scale drawings, I'll pm you.

Mike

 

https://www.armahobby.com/70043-hurricane-mk-ii-b-model-kit.html

 

P.S. I have that kit, and if you want, I can take closeup photos of the wings with a scale rule next to them, and send them to you- that should get you in the ballpark...just don't let @Troy Smith know- I would hate to fall out of favor with the Hurricane fan club! :giggle:

Edited by 72modeler
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  • 4 weeks later...
On 11/4/2021 at 7:29 PM, Troy Smith said:

Yes, it's slightly too short for a MK.I as well.   0.5mm,  hence the 2mm splice.  

that tank cowl panel is 41 inch on a Mk.I, 41x25.4=1041.4 /72 = 14.46 mm,  14.5 basically.  IIRC it measures 14mm.

If I’ve got this right I’ve got to length the tank panel 2mm with a plasticard wedge?  Merry Christmas resized_dfc02d4a-38b5-4a7c-a000-e9e971bf 

Edited by PhantomBigStu
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  • 4 months later...
1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Ive heard and read about Hawker Sea Hurricane Mk.Ic’s

Usually the same wrong info, that there were 100 made ....

1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

but did the R.A.F. Ever operate or test the Mk.Ic ? If so does anyone have any info on codes, colors, or any other info ? 

yes. Not a IC, just a cannon armed Hurricane I

see

 

The Sea Hurricane link has more info as well.   

 

HTH

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Last week my grandson got a Corgi Sea Hurricane W9219 diecast model for his birthday, described as a machine from 880 NAS in Scotland in 1941 https://www.flyingmule.com/products/OD-AC059 

The colours resemble EDSG and DSG uppersurfaces and something like Sky Grey undersurfaces and sides (the demarcation line is high and the vertical tail and spinner are Sky Grey).
I know it's not a model for a contest or a museum, but a similar Sea Hurricane is depicted in the PrintScale 72-383 decal set as the P3114 from the 800 NAS Gosport in February 1940. This one, however, has a vertical tail in camouflage and a black spinner. Who is right: Corgi, PrintScale or both?

Cheers

Michael

Edited by KRK4m
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23 minutes ago, KRK4m said:

Last week my grandson got a Corgi Sea Hurricane W9219 diecast model for his birthday, described as a machine from 880 NAS in Scotland in 1941 https://www.flyingmule.com/products/OD-AC059. The colours resemble EDSG and DSG uppersurfaces and something like Sky Grey undersurfaces and sides (the demarcation line is high and the vertical tail and spinner are Sky Grey).
I know it's not a model for a contest or a museum, but a similar Sea Hurricane is depicted in the PrintScale 72-383 decal set as the P3114 from the 800 NAS Gosport in February 1940. This one, however, has a vertical tail in camouflage and a black spinner. Who is right: Corgi, PrintScale or both?

Cheers

Michael

I get a Fatal Error when I try to open the link.

 

 

Chris

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45 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

I get a Fatal Error when I try to open the link.

 

 

Sorry, Chris - the reason is the dot ending the quote. Remove it and all works fine (I've already corrected it above)

Cheers

Michael

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7 minutes ago, PhantomBigStu said:

Think this is the corgi he meant to link to https://www.flyingmule.com/products/CG-AA32017

 

Not exactly the same, but a very silmilar one...  Jeremy has got the W9219 and you linked W9220 😀

Nevertheless the question remains the same

Cheers

Michael

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1 hour ago, KRK4m said:

he colours resemble EDSG and DSG uppersurfaces and something like Sky Grey undersurfaces and sides (the demarcation line is high and the vertical tail and spinner are Sky Grey).
I know it's not a model for a contest or a museum, but a similar Sea Hurricane is depicted in the PrintScale 72-383 decal set as the P3114 from the 800 NAS Gosport in February 1940. This one, however, has a vertical tail in camouflage and a black spinner. Who is right: Corgi, PrintScale or both?

Corgi is based on a photo, 

W9220

Screen%20Shot%202016-09-08%20at%2016.28.

from 

 

the other is a 'profile only' special. as discussed in the link. 

Print Scale have just used a profile that has already been used on sheets before, like the Twaddle Alliance, sorry, Model  alliance sheet discussed,    Print Scale are not famed for their "research" or accuracy.... as are Model Alliance...

I think maybe the first appearance was by Errormaster?   

ah, yes

174382-c-15059-64-pristine.jpg

 

Not sure where the profile originally appeared...  I'll add it in if I find it

 

HTH

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A slightly controversial scheme.

Hurricanes of 880 Squadron are well documented. Some photos show a mixed formation with other Hurricanes in TLS finish, suggesting that W9219, W9220 and very few others had Sky undersides. The high demarcation might suggest S.1.E, in which case undersurfaces would be Sky Grey (as per Corgi model). However, the EDSG/DSG/Sky colour scheme with high demarcation was not uncommon and was also worn by several Fulmars, in particular those of 806 Sqn. IMHO, I'd think of it as a "standard" mid-late 1940 finish, whereas by June 1940 S.1.E was gone, on paper at least.

 

As those Hurricanes were manufactured in the late months of 1940, I'd go with EDSG/DSG/Sky, not Sky Grey.

 

P3114 is an elusive subject: photographs are said to exist, but seemingly they are privately owned and not shown around. Profiles do abound, but I stick to the rule "never trust a profile without a photo". From what little I can find, this one appears to me much like the radar calibration "orange Hurricane".

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On 14/05/2022 at 21:44, Troy Smith said:

 

Not sure where the profile originally appeared...  I'll add it in if I find it

 

 

That's an interesting question as the usual suspects (Profiles or Aircam Aviation) appears to be not guilty in this case.

Edited by Dave Fleming
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I think that I first saw this in an issue of SAM.  At this stage it was possibly linked to an intended scheme for RAF Hurricanes in Norway, although later-published photos of 46 Sq showed that it hadn't been used.  It was later that the 880 Sq photo appeared, showing the mixed-scheme formation.  I suspect that it may also have appeared in a profile for a proposed Hurricane on floats. None of which explains P3114..

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am trying to build P2617 (the RAF Museum Hurricane) as it might have appeared in Autumn '40 in its last days with 607 RAuxAF Squadron.  Is there a logical sequence for Hurricanes to be allocated A or B camouflage schemes according to serial number or is it more complex than that please?

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8 minutes ago, Olmec Head said:

I am trying to build P2617 (the RAF Museum Hurricane) as it might have appeared in Autumn '40 in its last days with 607 RAuxAF Squadron.  Is there a logical sequence for Hurricanes to be allocated A or B camouflage schemes according to serial number or is it more complex than that please?

it is usually quoted as being A = even, B=odd, (or the otehr way round) ...which is fine and dandy until you start to get black out blocks in the serials..

this should explain

 

Block 1/G, First Gloster Produced Block

Serial Range P2535 - P2584 (50), P2614 - P2653 (40), P2672 - P2701 (30), P2713 - P2732 (20), P2751 - P2770 (20), P2792 - P2836 (45), P2854 - P2888 (35), P2900 - P2924 (25), P2946 - P2995 (50), P3020 - P3069 (50), P3080 - P3124 (45), P3140 - P3179 (40), P3200 - P3234 (35), P3250 - P3264 (15) - Total 500

You get the idea,  the sequence in place goes even-even or odd-odd...

I have been meaning to make a survey of P**** serials and note down  if they just kept alternating on the production line or....

 

I did do this for a Spitfire project,  you need to find a similar serial Hurricanes and see what happens..

this may help...

Hawker-Hurricane-I-RAF-73Sqn-D-P2569-J-P

 

D/P2569 , J/P2575 and X/P2647

seen better here

Hawker-Hurricane-I-RAF-73Sqn-TPX-P2647-l

all show A pattern.  

 

P2617 'as is'  now shows the A pattern. 

 

this image

https://www.airhistory.net/photo/8777/P2617

of P2617 in Training Command colours, so scheme when earmarked for preservation and put into storage, shows A.

 

I'd suggest looking at the usual photo places and see what matches up, (i'm not about to go down that time worm hole  myself right now)  bear in mind AFAIK there are no photo of P2617 in the war, so you are already making  a 'best guess'  as to appearance.

 

HTH

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12 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

it is usually quoted as being A = even, B=odd, (or the otehr way round) ...which is fine and dandy until you start to get black out blocks in the serials..

this should explain

 

Block 1/G, First Gloster Produced Block

Serial Range P2535 - P2584 (50), P2614 - P2653 (40), P2672 - P2701 (30), P2713 - P2732 (20), P2751 - P2770 (20), P2792 - P2836 (45), P2854 - P2888 (35), P2900 - P2924 (25), P2946 - P2995 (50), P3020 - P3069 (50), P3080 - P3124 (45), P3140 - P3179 (40), P3200 - P3234 (35), P3250 - P3264 (15) - Total 500

You get the idea,  the sequence in place goes even-even or odd-odd...

I have been meaning to make a survey of P**** serials and note down  if they just kept alternating on the production line or....

 

I did do this for a Spitfire project,  you need to find a similar serial Hurricanes and see what happens..

this may help...

Hawker-Hurricane-I-RAF-73Sqn-D-P2569-J-P

 

D/P2569 , J/P2575 and X/P2647

seen better here

Hawker-Hurricane-I-RAF-73Sqn-TPX-P2647-l

all show A pattern.  

 

P2617 'as is'  now shows the A pattern. 

 

this image

https://www.airhistory.net/photo/8777/P2617

of P2617 in Training Command colours, so scheme when earmarked for preservation and put into storage, shows A.

 

I'd suggest looking at the usual photo places and see what matches up, (i'm not about to go down that time worm hole  myself right now)  bear in mind AFAIK there are no photo of P2617 in the war, so you are already making  a 'best guess'  as to appearance.

 

HTH

 

Thanks Troy for the quick reply and the full explanation, I think I get it!  From the last picture in your post of P2647 which is part of the same production block as P2617, I am guessing that P2617 would have been an A Scheme Camouflage pattern.  Having looked at another post on 607 Squadron, P2617 would have been coded as AF-M.  I am also guessing that the fuselage roundels and underwing roundels would be standard RAF 'dark' colours, but the the top roundels could have still been the 'bright' Gloster colours.  

 

 

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1 minute ago, Olmec Head said:

I am also guessing that the fuselage roundels and underwing roundels would be standard RAF 'dark' colours, but the the top roundels could have still been the 'bright' Gloster colours.  

Again, best guess territory.  

note this

60a836afc4a0cd6395f6a88bb4b409c3--hawker

 

 yes, Gloster did, and later in the Battle, they didn't get repainted.

But earlier, I think they did get repainted,  and I think LK-A did.... why....

because of this  note the wing in the foreground, with the badly flaking roundel, which is considerably lighter tone than LK-A in the background.

Note the barely visible difference with the new fin flash.    As the pre war colours are briight, I can see that if there was time a repaint would be done, 

 

The 87 sq photos were all taken by 'Watty' Watson, who was a keel photographer,  the whose plane was LK-G,  

d73e9d639f90b55c8e7f2978ed4526b7.jpg

 

 

ground-crew-600x503.jpg

 

Some of this first Gloster batch were noted for also having paint that flaked off....   like LK-G, 

927a96916012bb9be2df9b317f2ab8f5.jpg

 

another couple more tatty Gloster paint flakers

 

VY-H of 85 Sq July 1940

33880441978_8724dd8381_b.jpg85 Squadron 58 by Сергей Кривицкий, on Flickr

 

note the fresh paint chip on this, and the armourers are wearing gym shoes

33880441278_89b64af502_b.jpg85 Squadron 59 by Сергей Кривицкий, on Flickr

 

This one though is Hawker if it's the same VY-K, P3408 IIRC

47757540341_e326893454_b.jpg85 Squadron 68 by Сергей Кривицкий, on Flickr

 

 

 

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Thanks again Troy, I read somewhere that the fuselage markings were repainted to dull down the Gloster colours, but I can't remember where.  I would certainly hope that AF-M got a repaint if it was as shoddy as the airframes in your pictures.  Another question is about the wing walkways that I have not seen answered is:

 

85 Squadron 59

 

Where these black painted or camouflaged or either or another option please?

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1 minute ago, Olmec Head said:

or another option please

I think they are kinda of dark grey stick on strip with some kind of grit, basically like some very rough wet and dry paper,  the Hurricane in Finland, basically untouched since 1943, may have some paint overspray, but note the matt finish and texture

 

h066.jpg

 

h068.jpg

 

h076.jpg

 

h101.jpg

 

h141.jpg

 

h170.jpg

 

from here, which I didn't know had been posted and are a stunning series of images..  The plane is  the photos went into storage in 1943, and internally is as was built.  It's a 2nd Hawker batch Hurricane. 

, wi

 

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On 24/05/2022 at 22:03, Troy Smith said:

I think they are kinda of dark grey stick on strip with some kind of grit, basically like some very rough wet and dry paper,  the Hurricane in Finland, basically untouched since 1943, may have some paint overspray, but note the matt finish and texture

 

h066.jpg

 

h068.jpg

 

h076.jpg

 

h101.jpg

 

h141.jpg

 

h170.jpg

 

from here, which I didn't know had been posted and are a stunning series of images..  The plane is  the photos went into storage in 1943, and internally is as was built.  It's a 2nd Hawker batch Hurricane. 

Again thanks Troy, it looks like wet and dry sand paper.

 

 

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