All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

[Troy Smith]

Just now, PhantomBigStu said:

Thanks, should say for the record the nose is too short for a mk1 as well assuming the Airfix kit is accurate. 

Yes, it's slightly too short for a MK.I as well.   0.5mm,  hence the 2mm splice.  

that tank cowl panel is 41 inch on a Mk.I, 41x25.4=1041.4 /72 = 14.46 mm,  14.5 basically.  IIRC it measures 14mm.

[PhantomBigStu]

Cheers Troy. Figured rather then try and sell for half the price of the Arma  I might as well just build it and put some effort into correcting it, as all black Nightfighter per chance as I’m also doing a spitfire as such 

Edited November 4, 2021 by PhantomBigStu

[KFS-miniatures]

Gents, I consider building W9266 of No.274 Sqn which is featured in the recently released Eduard's 'Hurristory' kit: https://www.eduard.com/out/media/gallery/7422/zoom/2138_12.jpg

As can be seen above, Eduard shows it with a blue outline of the lightning, whilst the profiles in On Target 12 booklet do not show any outline: http://hyperscale.com/2008/reviews/books/p7hg_img_21/fullsize/34-35Hurricane_fs.jpg

I tried to find photos of this aircraft in the web, but didn't find anything that I could be sure that it depicts W9266. The On Target booklet authors provide the following reference: p.67, The Fight for the Skies, Roger Freeman, Cassell Publication, 1998. Unfortunately, I don't have access to this book - may I ask for help in obtaining a scan of the photo in question, or perhaps other photos of this aircraft exist? Thanks and best regards

[dogsbody]

3 hours ago, KFS-miniatures said:

Gents, I consider building W9266 of No.274 Sqn which is featured in the recently released Eduard's 'Hurristory' kit: https://www.eduard.com/out/media/gallery/7422/zoom/2138_12.jpg

As can be seen above, Eduard shows it with a blue outline of the lightning, whilst the profiles in On Target 12 booklet do not show any outline: http://hyperscale.com/2008/reviews/books/p7hg_img_21/fullsize/34-35Hurricane_fs.jpg

I tried to find photos of this aircraft in the web, but didn't find anything that I could be sure that it depicts W9266. The On Target booklet authors provide the following reference: p.67, The Fight for the Skies, Roger Freeman, Cassell Publication, 1998. Unfortunately, I don't have access to this book - may I ask for help in obtaining a scan of the photo in question, or perhaps other photos of this aircraft exist? Thanks and best regards

 

 

Have you scrolled through the IWM's Hurricane collection?

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=Hawker+Hurricane&pageSize=30&media-records=records-with-media&style=image

 

 

 

Chris

[Ed Russell]

On 11/5/2021 at 5:33 AM, Troy Smith said:

if this sort of thing bothers you,  I can't really see the point of getting the Zvezda kit,  as it's not the only problem, and one you start messing about like this,  it negates it's apparent 'cheapness'

 

Exactly - I was able to find all of the faults and decided some were not worth correcting. If you put it between a correctly selected kit of a Mk I and a Mk II you may well be able to see the nose length difference but in isolation it does not stick out.😀

 

.

[Dave Fleming]

Having looked at the Zvesda kit alongside both the Airfix fabric wing and Arma mk I kits, I don't see it as'shorter than Airfix' . The Zvesda kit matches both almost in length from both rudder to nose and cockpit to njose (The panel lines match up too), and is actually slightly longer due to the oil collector plate on the front. If it's too short for a mk I, they all are.

 

Aligned on the rear fuselage/rudder on the cutting mat line (although parallax makes them look out of line), there is  hardly any difference. Matching the halves of each kit shows the same

 

 

 

The nose is a little deeper on the lower side (An attempt to match the different underside profile of the mk II?) but not so much that it wouldn't look like a mk I. 

 

I'm sticking with my plan to make a 4 cannon Sea Hurricane I (deliberately ignoring suffixes, with Airfix hook and Heller cannon) and I might get another to make  V7360. Still not a mk II though! 😞

Edited November 8, 2021 by Dave Fleming

[Bigos]

22 hours ago, KFS-miniatures said:

Gents, I consider building W9266 of No.274 Sqn which is featured in the recently released Eduard's 'Hurristory' kit: https://www.eduard.com/out/media/gallery/7422/zoom/2138_12.jpg

As can be seen above, Eduard shows it with a blue outline of the lightning, whilst the profiles in On Target 12 booklet do not show any outline: http://hyperscale.com/2008/reviews/books/p7hg_img_21/fullsize/34-35Hurricane_fs.jpg

I tried to find photos of this aircraft in the web, but didn't find anything that I could be sure that it depicts W9266. The On Target booklet authors provide the following reference: p.67, The Fight for the Skies, Roger Freeman, Cassell Publication, 1998. Unfortunately, I don't have access to this book - may I ask for help in obtaining a scan of the photo in question, or perhaps other photos of this aircraft exist? Thanks and best regards

The lightning most likely had a blue outline. However, the lightning itself was certainly not yellow. It is an orthochromatic photo.  If you compare with the yellow part of the roundel, the yellow lightning from Eduard's decal seems highly questionable. Very unlikely.
I have not seen a photo of W9266.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Bigos

[Dave Fleming]

Looking at that photo, I'd say white was the most likely colour. The shades are interesting as the blue is very dark for ortho. Wonder if it's ortho with a filter?

 

Having said that, this photo from the IWM collection showing another 274 Hurricane also shows the flash isn't the same colour as the yellow round the roundel, but it's darker than white.

 

ROYAL AIR FORCE OPERATIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA, 1939-1943.. © IWM (CM 868) IWM Non Commercial License

Edited November 9, 2021 by Dave Fleming

[Graham Boak]

Ortho doesn't react to yellow as such, but specifically to red.  The RAF Yellow is an orange-yellow and so the film is picking up on the red pigment present.  Perhaps the lightning flash is a lemon-yellow?

[JackG]

Another example of 274 Sqn sporting the lightning motif.  Too bad the photo is cropped and unable to compare with roundel shades, but I would definitely say the main body of the 'bolt' is not white.  Could be the suggested lemon-yellow, or some roundel yellow mixed in with mostly white.

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

 

[JackG]

Concerning film attributes and roundel shades, yes Orthochromatic film does darken the yellow, but it requires at least a 97% blue filter to achieve equal darkness with the roundel blue.   The red remains the darkest, though not by much.   With no filter, the red is just slightly lighter than the blue, while yellow is the lightest of the three.

 

With Panchromatic film,  the yellow shifts much less towards dark grey compared to Ortho film, though the red does become noticeably lighter.  With the blue filter employed, it requires about 96% to shift the darkness of the yellow to equal the blue.  At 100% blue filter, the yellow becomes black and is the darkest of the three rings, Ortho film does not reach this degree of darkness on the outer ring, and red remains the darkest ever so slightly.

 

Anyhow, the above the results are derived from photo software that emulates film, and is based on the Eduard artwork:

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Bigos]

Great work Jack! I think it confirms the supposition that the yellow lightning is incompatible with the distribution of shades of grey on the roundel. Try the same film emulation process with the interpretation from Arma Hobby. I am very curious about the effect.

 

 

[JackG]

Here ya go.  Luckily still had my draw program open with the contents of the first file.  Just a matter of cut and paste...

 

 

 

[Bigos]

Jack you are great! Thanks! You don't even know how glad I am that my interpretation agrees so well with your analysis. What graphics program are you using? You confirmed something that I was 90% sure about. Now I know for sure that I didn't make a mistake and the lightning bolt wasn't yellow.. 🥳

[JackG]

The software is a free download that is used as a plugin for most photo editors:

http://powerretouche.com/downloads.htm

 

It is the full program, payment is only required to remove the 'demo' stamped all over the image when converted. 

 

You should create a dedicated folder in the 'plugins' folder of your particular photo editing software for installing.  To use once installed, it should be found in the 'EFFECTS' drop down menu, or something similar, and is entitled Power Retouch Demo.

 

regards,

Jack

[Broadway]

13 hours ago, Bigos said:

Great work Jack! I think it confirms the supposition that the yellow lightning is incompatible with the distribution of shades of grey on the roundel. Try the same film emulation process with the interpretation from Arma Hobby. I am very curious about the effect.

 

 

Does this mean they've added a straight aerial mast in this boxing?

[Bigos]

34 minutes ago, Broadway said:

Does this mean they've added a straight aerial mast in this boxing?

This part is not included in the kit. You need to make the aerial mast yourself from a plastic rod.

 

 

[Broadway]

I realised after checking I looked at the Finnish Hurricane

 

[ClaudioN]

On 10/27/2021 at 10:06 AM, ClaudioN said:

Carrier-capable Hurricanes were always in short supply. Whereas 'hooked Spitfires' were training machines, Operation Torch Mk. IIs were much-needed front-line types. They might be considered 'hooked Hurricanes' but were normally called Sea Hurricanes too.

The correct answer may perhaps be found in ADM 199/870, a report on Operation Torch by Rear Adm. Lyster.

The Air Ministry was asked to provide 45 Spitfires and 45 Hurricanes IIBs. Both types were to be hooked as fast as possible, but the Spitfires would be for training only, as Seafires were beginning to become available in numbers.

The Hurricane total was raised to 60, that were hooked by Hawkers. Meanwhile, Rear Adm. Lyster had been able to obtain 30 sets of IIC wings and the change over was carried out at RAF Henlow. Thus, there were 30 hooked Hurricane IIBs and 30 hooked Hurricane IICs, all of them Canadian CCF-built airframes.

They were used to re-equip the fighter squadrons assigned to RN escort carriers in Operation Torch. Surviving aircraft were later supplemented by the 60 Hawker-built Sea Hurricane IICs for service in the British-built escort carriers.

Edited November 11, 2021 by ClaudioN

[mhaselden]

This question has probably been asked before...but when did protective armour start to be installed in RAF Hurricanes.  I thought it was during the Battle of France but I recognize I may be wrong.  Any info, backed by sources, would be very much appreciated.

[Graham Boak]

The classic account is from the wartime book, Paul Richey's Fighter Pilot, and states that the No.1 Squadron Commander obtained some pilot armour from a Battle squadron and had these fitted to his squadron Hurricanes.  However this would have been during the Phoney Way rather than the Battle proper.  However since then AM records have become available, and it was part of Dowding's initiative to provide protection, as with the armour glass windscreen, and that the orders for the backplates had been placed prewar.  Sorry I don't have a source for this: perhaps The Most Difficult Enemy?  As to the date, the best I can find is "early 1940", which will have been too late for the transfer of 1 Sq.'s Hurricanes to France.  So maybe Halahan did get some Battle plates, but this can only have been a few and it is an open question whether they would have fitted, or been made to fit, inside a Hurricane.  Perhaps some intermediate mounting could have been lashed up?

[Selwyn]

9 hours ago, mhaselden said:

This question has probably been asked before...but when did protective armour start to be installed in RAF Hurricanes.  I thought it was during the Battle of France but I recognize I may be wrong.  Any info, backed by sources, would be very much appreciated.

There was certainly armour fittted in May 1940. Billy drake of 1 Sqn was shot down by BF110's 13/5/40 and although wounded his life was saved by the armour behind his seat. This featured in a TV programme when they excavated his hurricane and found the plate. He had been wounded by fragments in the upper back , the plate showed that the a bullet  had struck the armour near the slot where the harness passed through, the bullet had shattered when hitting the plate and it was fragments from this that had caused the wounds. Without the armour the bullet would have passed through his seat and  killed him.

 

Selwyn

[mhaselden]

Thanks for the responses, gents.  I suspected armour plate was added during operations in France.  Apologies for the use of "Battle of France" as shorthand...clearly, armour plate was added during the Phoney War.

[V Line]

On 14/11/2021 at 02:58, mhaselden said:

Thanks for the responses, gents.  I suspected armour plate was added during operations in France.  Apologies for the use of "Battle of France" as shorthand...clearly, armour plate was added during the Phoney War.

The following abstract from a report of an Air Staff liaison meeting on 20th June 1939 sheds some light on the fitting of armour to the Hurricane:

 

It was stated that there ‘were about 70 Hurricanes in service with a certain amount of (armour) protection but that only 15 were fully protected

Delivery of completely protected Hurricanes should (it was noted) start around September that year.

[Dave Fleming]

An observation rather than a question - looking at the periphery of the well known picture of Clowes' P3395, I noticed that the fin flash of the aircraft om the next revetment had a reversed fin flash. A browse through other photos suggests this wasn't unique.

 

 

ROYAL AIR FORCE FIGHTER COMMAND, 1939-1945.. © IWM (CH 17331) IWM Non Commercial License

Edited November 21, 2021 by Dave Fleming