Troy Smith Posted December 27, 2020 Share Posted December 27, 2020 3 hours ago, mahavelona said: Most profiles, including the book, show these airrcaft in desert colours including azure blue, but every photo shows a lighter shade on the underside and a lower contrast on top. WARNING! BP588/RS-X is NOT in Ceylon. Just to really confuse everybody when 30 Sq moved to the far east, they used the RS code, but 33 Squadron that stayed in North Africa , ALSO used the RS code. BP588 is with 33 Sq in Libya. Not the worst profile ever, but wrong on the fine details Discussed in detail here There is discussion on the origins of the Hurricanes, coming Takoradi, so they were likely in the TLS scheme. The underside colour is debated, but colour film of FE Hurricanes shows Sky. More pics of 30 Sq would be fascinating. HTH 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahavelona Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 18 hours ago, Troy Smith said: WARNING! BP588/RS-X is NOT in Ceylon. Just to really confuse everybody when 30 Sq moved to the far east, they used the RS code, but 33 Squadron that stayed in North Africa , ALSO used the RS code. BP588 is with 33 Sq in Libya. Not the worst profile ever, but wrong on the fine details Discussed in detail here There is discussion on the origins of the Hurricanes, coming Takoradi, so they were likely in the TLS scheme. The underside colour is debated, but colour film of FE Hurricanes shows Sky. More pics of 30 Sq would be fascinating. HTH Wow, thanks for this very useful info Troy. I hadn't realised that the RS choice was re used. At any rate I'd just picked the profile from online to illustrate - is very similar to a profile in 'Flat Out' by John F. Hamlin. BP588 looks very different to the book's photos. I don't have the book to have at the moment but will check for the serial in the Annex when I can. Apologies if I'm being dense but what's FE stand for? I do have some quick snaps to hand from the book. All credit to: John F. Hamlin "Flat Out: The Story of 30 Squadron Royal Air Force". Sorry for the cut captions.. Here's one of the Hurricane on Indomitable en route to Ceylon. Note the low contrast and apparent lack of RS code. Note the low contrast upper and oaks undersides here. Also note that the demarcation between colours on the nose varies, perhaps suggesting repainting? A factory finish would likely see the demarcation straight down the panel line? Prop hides the demarcation here but we see how pale the underside is. As such I'm fairly confident these are in dark earth and dark green on top and do not have any azure blue paint. The undersides could be sky or sky blue but given the theatre and apparent suggestion that they may have seen re painting, perhaps sky blue is reasonable? Any thoughts on the spinner colour, too? It looks lighter than the camo. Interested to hear any thoughts on how these can be interpreted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 4 hours ago, mahavelona said: what's FE stand for Far East. 4 hours ago, mahavelona said: As such I'm fairly confident these are in dark earth and dark green on top and do not have any azure blue paint. The undersides could be sky or sky blue but given the theatre and apparent suggestion that they may have seen re painting, perhaps sky blue is reasonable? Film of 135 Sq in India shows Sky. If they were in a rush, they may have just stuck with Sky. There are reports that Sky was not liked, and Sky Blue preffered, and you can make a light blue easily with white and roundel blue, note that 'india white' is just such a mix. I'll add a @tonyot as he's might have some more info. I'll have to dig out the links. 4 hours ago, mahavelona said: Any thoughts on the spinner colour, too? It looks lighter than the camo. I'd guess of the 4 you posted, black, Dark Earth, 'sky', Dark Earth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 As I understand it, it was ME Command that objected to Sky, considering it too light. Therefore they produced their own Middle East Blue/Iraqi Blue, which was sent back to the UK and matched to create Azure Blue for more widespread acceptance. I do not know of any similar comments from the Far East, but if Sky was considered too light for the Middle East, it is logical that FE Command would have thought the same. However by 1941 Azure Blue was in widespread use for overseas deliveries so the matter may not have arisen. It is worth pointing out that high quality colour photos of Blenheims in Malaya in mid 1941 show a light blue and definitely not Sky. Sky Blue is often mentioned in texts but the problem here is that Sky Blue is even lighter than Sky, so would be ruled out on the same logic. I suggest that people are simply referring to Azure Blue as a sky blue rather than as the specific MAP colour. It remains baffling why SEAC decided on a specific mix for their "not white honest" roundel centres rather than simply using the very similar Azure Blue anyway. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahavelona Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 Thanks for your thoughts gents. It is usually a matter of informed guesswork, when it comes down to it, but I am not so confident in making the informed guesses myself. Really interesting info about the origins of this sky blue and usages of it versus sky. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudioN Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, mahavelona said: Not sure, but to me the propeller looks like de Havilland and the radiator a narrower oval. Could this Hurricane be a Mark I? Edited December 28, 2020 by ClaudioN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 9 minutes ago, ClaudioN said: Could this Hurricane be a Mark I? yes, as detailed below, from the original 30/33 Sq thread linked above (I know these links get lost easily) " Last year when researching what was going on in the Indian Ocean in March/April 1942 I came upon a post from a well respected Canadian author, Rob Stuart, whose particular interest concerns the Indian Ocean in early 1942. That included the transfer of 30 and 261 squadrons to Ceylon on HMS Indomitable from 25 Feb 1942. He wrote:- "As for why some of the 60 Hurricanes were Mk I’s, I agree with what you say about the drawbacks of including them along with the more numerous Mark II’s. From AIR 8/881, which has been kindly provided to me by “Tom from Cornwall” very recently, from Hurricanes Over the Sands, and from the ORBs, it looks like 30 and 261 squadrons flew their Mark Is to No.108 M.U. before leaving Egypt and were given 36 Mark IIB’s, flown overland from Takoradi, when they got to Port Sudan. However, on 17 February Portal told Tedder to get as many Hurricanes on Indomitable as would fit. Apparently there were only another 14 Mark II’s on hand, also flown in from Takoradi I think, so 10 Mark I’s from the Middle East were embarked, since 60 dismantled Hurricanes could be squeezed aboard the carrier. I expect that nothing but Mark II’s would have been sent if 60 of them could have been got to Port Sudan in time but apparently that was not possible." There were 50 Hurricane IIb and 10 Hurricane I delivered by Indomitable to Ceylon." from On 06/07/2020 at 12:51, EwenS said: Last year when researching what was going on in the Indian Ocean in March/April 1942 I came upon a post from a well respected Canadian author, Rob Stuart, whose particular interest concerns the Indian Ocean in early 1942. That included the transfer of 30 and 261 squadrons to Ceylon on HMS Indomitable from 25 Feb 1942. He wrote:- "As for why some of the 60 Hurricanes were Mk I’s, I agree with what you say about the drawbacks of including them along with the more numerous Mark II’s. From AIR 8/881, which has been kindly provided to me by “Tom from Cornwall” very recently, from Hurricanes Over the Sands, and from the ORBs, it looks like 30 and 261 squadrons flew their Mark Is to No.108 M.U. before leaving Egypt and were given 36 Mark IIB’s, flown overland from Takoradi, when they got to Port Sudan. However, on 17 February Portal told Tedder to get as many Hurricanes on Indomitable as would fit. Apparently there were only another 14 Mark II’s on hand, also flown in from Takoradi I think, so 10 Mark I’s from the Middle East were embarked, since 60 dismantled Hurricanes could be squeezed aboard the carrier. I expect that nothing but Mark II’s would have been sent if 60 of them could have been got to Port Sudan in time but apparently that was not possible." There were 50 Hurricane IIb and 10 Hurricane I delivered by Indomitable to Ceylon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 7 hours ago, mahavelona said: BP588 looks very different to the book's photos. I don't have the book to have at the moment but will check for the serial in the Annex when I can. BP588 was never in Ceylon. 7 hours ago, mahavelona said: Also note that the demarcation between colours on the nose varies, perhaps suggesting repainting? A factory finish would likely see the demarcation straight down the panel line? the photos vary as to date, note that the pic on page 174 is a IIc, so the images seem to be over a couple of years. I'd suggest the images of 'Bitsa' and the one with 'Bowser' Norton are from the same era, nite the lines under the wings, I think from underwing tank fixings. the other two I think are later. 51 minutes ago, mahavelona said: It is usually a matter of informed guesswork, when it comes down to it, but I am not so confident in making the informed guesses myself. Really interesting info about the origins of this sky blue and usages of it versus sky. indeed, Hurricane rushed out from Egypt via takoradi to Ceylon may never had time to be repainted, later ones may have been, so depends on date and what batch. I don't know if you can see this without a facebook account, but the colour film of 136 Sq hurricane is here https://www.facebook.com/watch/136-Squadron-RAF-188578681175384/ HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevSmar Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 (edited) On 12/26/2020 at 9:02 PM, Magpie22 said: Loft lines?? Sadly- the Hawker drawings I have of the cowling and cowling formers say “contour as per shop template” (or something similar). Not very helpful... I’ve seen a Supermarine manufacturing drawing for the Spitfire which shows contours for the nose. Surely a similar technique was used by Hawkers to define the contours of the Hurricanes nose? Frustratingly I’ve never seen one of these- so the only option is to wait until laser scans are done of all the remaining original Hurricanes... Even Hawker Restorations, the experts in Hurricane restorations, get the nose contours wrong. If you look at their recent restorations you can see a noticeable “bump” in the top cowlings where they’ve got something wrong: Edited December 30, 2020 by StevSmar Added photo 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevSmar Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 Would anyone happen to have a photo of what the upward firing flare installation looks like in the Hurricane? There are lots of photos showing the fabric on the rear fairing, but I’ve yet to see what an installation looked like in the fuselage (The Side Elevation drawing I posted recently shows a hint of what it looks like) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melonfish Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 Hi everyone, just registered to ask here as everytime I search for details on hurricanes/spits I end up on britmodeller! Clearly there's some knowledgeable bods about. Most of my focus atm is FAA stuff but I have two questions if poss; first is plane letters under the nose cowling, I've seen odd pics of RAF and FAA hurri's (and others to be fair) but I'm having quite a time finding a source on why this was done or rules around what planes would warrant it etc, can anyone give any pointers? Second is FAA repaints/conversions to sea hurricanes and stencils. During conversion what stencils were repainted onto the tss scheme and what colour? Again I can't seem to find sources. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Melonfish said: Most of my focus atm is FAA stuff but I have two questions if poss; first is plane letters under the nose cowling, I've seen odd pics of RAF and FAA hurri's (and others to be fair) but I'm having quite a time finding a source on why this was done or rules around what planes would warrant it etc, can anyone give any pointers? Second is FAA repaints/conversions to sea hurricanes and stencils. During conversion what stencils were repainted onto the tss scheme and what colour? Again I can't seem to find sources. Thank you Hi Melonfish, welcome to the party. Application of aircraft i/d letters under the nose varies from unit to unit. Many squadrons operating from airfields with blast pen dispersals adopted it as it was easier to spot with the aircraft parked facing outwards. Some Typhoon units painted the aircraft letter on the wing leading edges and many Bomber Command units painted the letters either side of the nose or, in the case of Halifax units, on the front of the undercarriage leg castings for the same reason. The practice seems to have started in the early mid-war years but was by no means universal. With regard to Sea Hurricane stencils all of those normally applied to Hurricanes would be applied in the normal colours, typically Night. Unfortunately I don't have an Airfix Sea Hurricane to hand for a quick check so I'll stand to be erected when someone who knows more/better pitches up. Edited January 2, 2021 by stever219 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Melonfish said: During conversion what stencils were repainted onto the tss scheme and what colour? assume standard stencilling, as these were conversion done properly and Night for colour as @stever219 says. though, they may not have bothered with Sea Hurricane IA for the CAM ships. 1 hour ago, Melonfish said: Again I can't seem to find sources. There may not be any. @iang maybe has some information on Sea Hurricane conversion standards. @Grey Beema specialises in FAA models and maybe able add some other details. 1 hour ago, Melonfish said: Hi everyone, just registered to ask here as everytime I search for details on hurricanes/spits I end up on britmodeller! Clearly there's some knowledgeable bods about. We seem to have a good knowledge pool. a couple of points, asking for general guidance will only really get general answers, if you want to build 'X' of XX sq, ask specifically. If you want a model that is really accurate, that will limit your choices to aircraft that are well documented. If you want an aircraft you have details of (eg pilot/unit/code/serial) but no pic, then you have to work on 'best guess' For this kind of thing, start a new thread, and make what your asking clear from the thread topic. (and you can always edit this later as well) eg "was full stencilling reapplied on Sea Hurricane conversions, and in what colour" the site search is not very good, but adding britmodeller into a search engine question work well. This means you can sometimes find the answer already, or narrow down/refine your question, add in links to any relevant threads. It is a bit messy and random at times, and what may be "obvious" to some of our more obsessed members can be spread about. You can 'tag' members, by adding the '@' sign and the typing their name, @Melonfish but quoting them gets the same results. to sum up, specific questions in the thread header get more views than vague ones, and tend to get better answers. re reading your questions, you may not even be a modeller, but the points on the questions still apply. HTH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 I suggest asking Shuttleworth whether they repainted the stencils on their Sea Hurricane. The SH Mk.Ib conversions were done at General Aircraft, so whatever they did was likely to be consistent. I don't know where the Mk.Ia conversions were done (for the CAM ships) but presumably the same applies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, Graham Boak said: I suggest asking Shuttleworth whether they repainted the stencils on their Sea Hurricane. they did the stencilling can just be made out here as well Lots more here, which is a really superb resource for getting a feel of the entire airframe, though don't trust the internal colours, for this era is should mostly be aluminium paint apart from upper cockpit walls and rear bulkhead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Beema Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 Thanks for the mention @Troy Smith I’m only really scratching the surface - @iang is the real expert but I do a lot of looking at photos and asking daft questions on Britmodeller. Here is a photo from the Imperial war museum on line collection which I think will add to the confusion but illustrates Troy’s point. I believe this to be 800 Sqn aircraft and 880 Sqn aircraft on board HMS Indomitable rather than 885 on HMS Victorious I may well be wrong but it is similar to other photos I have seen. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205185912 800 NAS being the senior Fighter Squadron were assigned the number 6 on the carrier. 880 being the junior squadron carried 7. The senior squadron elected nor to carry 6 on the fuselage. The junior squadron does but does not carry leading edge markings, And that is how I chose to interpret them in my collection. Hawker Sea Hurricane Ia Z4550/G.Hawker 800 NAS. HMS IndomitableOperation Pedestal Aug-1942. Flown by 800 NAS CO Lt Cdr JM Bruen My interpretation of Hawker Sea Hurricane I Z4642/7*K. 880 NAS HMS Indomitable . HMS IndomitableOperation Pedestal Aug-1942. Flown by SLt RJ Cork. As Troy says, if you can find a photo, it’s the best way to go.. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudioN Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 19 minutes ago, Grey Beema said: Here is a photo from the Imperial war museum on line collection which I think will add to the confusion but illustrates Troy’s point. I believe this to be 800 Sqn aircraft and 880 Sqn aircraft on board HMS Indomitable rather than 885 on HMS Victorious I may well be wrong but it is similar to other photos I have seen. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205185912 Hello Melonfish, the photo posted by Grey Beema partly answers your question about plane letters "under the nose cowling". Most FAA units opted for plane letters on the wing leading edges and here you can see '6G' of 800 Sqn., then '7E' of 880 Sqn., followed by '6L' of 800 Sqn. and three more. As you can see, both 800 Sqn. machines used wing leading edge codes, 880 Sqn. did not. Other photos aboard Indomitable confirm this practice. Here's another IWM photo from Pedestal showing two Fulmars aboard Victorious with letter codes 'F' and 'G' under the nose (either 809 Sqn. or 884 Sqn.). The 885 Sqn. Sea Hurricane '7U' also shows the individual letter 'U' under the nose. OPERATION PEDESTAL, AUGUST 1942. © IWM (A 11295) IWM Non Commercial License Grey Beema is right in saying that the IWM picture he posted is somewhat confusing. The carrier is indeed Victorious (dashed line running along the deck centre - Indomitable had a continuous one), but the picture was taken after Indomitable was bombed and some of her Sea Hurricanes were recovered aboard. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 The IWM photo that @Grey Beema had linked to: Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 Claudio is right about 7.E being an 800 Sq aircraft: when 800 converted to Hurricanes at Port Reitz in Kenya, 880 lost their Senior Pilot and two of their aircraft, 7.E and 7.F, They can also be seen in an earlier view of 800 Sq on deck in harbour, possibly Simonstown. Cork then became the Senior Pilot in 880 Sq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 6 hours ago, Graham Boak said: I suggest asking Shuttleworth whether they repainted the stencils on their Sea Hurricane. The SH Mk.Ib conversions were done at General Aircraft, so whatever they did was likely to be consistent. I don't know where the Mk.Ia conversions were done (for the CAM ships) but presumably the same applies. Why didn’t I think of that?!?!? I’ve seen Z7015 close up often enough in the last few years but, unfortunately, all of my images of her are on my old phone which has packed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 As an aside, the ‘L’ in 7*L is fictional. It was chosen as a thanks to David Lee the then Deputy Director of the IWM in Duxford where it was restored to flight. Trevor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EwenS Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Can anyone tell me the width of a Hurricane sitting on its undercarriage without its outer wing panels? In other words as it would be put into the packing case for overseas transport or put into a carrier hanger. TIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melonfish Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 On 05/01/2021 at 20:18, EwenS said: Can anyone tell me the width of a Hurricane sitting on its undercarriage without its outer wing panels? In other words as it would be put into the packing case for overseas transport or put into a carrier hanger. TIA This site states the centre span is 9ft 1.5 inches http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/TECHDATA.HTM That's so far the only ref for the centre span I can see online, still waiting on my haynes sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EwenS Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 39 minutes ago, Melonfish said: This site states the centre span is 9ft 1.5 inches http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/TECHDATA.HTM That's so far the only ref for the centre span I can see online, still waiting on my haynes sorry! Thanks. That is to within a few inches of what I calculated by scaling from a smallish plan I found online. Good enough for my purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomtuu Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 22 hours ago, EwenS said: Thanks. That is to within a few inches of what I calculated by scaling from a smallish plan I found online. Good enough for my purposes. The drawing I have states a dimension between the pin centres of 109.5 inches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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