All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

[ClaudioN]

5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 I have found the threads and discussions on here have greatly added to my knowledge Hurricanes,  so  added in the links as I find cross linking helpful,  and it's a public forum, so  and makes it easier for others to follow up other threads and information.

Troy,

I admire your  encyclopaedic knowledge of useful links and the ability to post them whenever a question comes up. I wish I were half as good as you. 

5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I will admit to taking that P3854 IS VY-Q as being correct.   It is always stated as being this.

And it is indeed. The link you posted listed a number of IWM photos. All it takes is go to CH 1513, select version 2 of the picture (overall better contrast), use the magnifier feature provided by the IWM. The serial is readable. 

5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

But, correct serial or not, the lead aircraft in the photos is Q,  and does have fabric wings. 

Exactly. And the serial IS correct, providing a modelling subject of some interest. Now, I assume that Bruce Robertson, many years ago, also took his information from official documentation, like Geoffrey Sinclair. Possibly not the same documents, and I am inclined to believe that both read their documents correctly. My first post was admittedly hurried on this point, but I only wished to remark this discrepancy and ask for a check on the serial. 

Serial checked, small mystery remains. That's part of the fun!

 

Cheers

Claudio 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Forums like this are good because the ensure you double and triple check your data.  My previous list missed P3898 to P3903, P8809, P8810 and I think my report of V7281 as Fabric Wings is more likely V7282.  Overall when comparing with British Military Serials, the delivery logs have as extras P3755, P3854, P3890, V7226 and 7281 or 2, but exclude V7221 and V7223.  The entry for V7200 says Fabric Wings (25 aircraft), with BMS saying they are V7200 to 7209 and V7221 to V7235, the delivery logs drop V7221 and V7223 but add V7276 and V7281 (or 2).

 

And if I could figure out how to post a jpg from my local machine I would put up a couple of the relevant contract cards, assuming the security system does not lock me out until tomorrow sometime of course, it seems a little upset with me at the moment.

 

[dogsbody]

1 hour ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

And if I could figure out how to post a jpg from my local machine I would put up a couple of the relevant contract cards, assuming the security system does not lock me out until tomorrow sometime of course, it seems a little upset with me at the moment.

 

Geoffrey has sent these two Contract Cards to me, for posting here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris, for Geoffrey.

[ClaudioN]

23 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

V7281 (or 2)

Looking at the Contract Card you posted via Chris, there seems to ba a faint trace of a (probably deleted) bracket extending across V7281, V7282 and V7283. This might explain the odd positioning of the 'fabric wing' legend, that happens to be exactly over the line separating the two entries V7281 and V7282.

We may never know, I am afraid.

By the way, the speed at which some airframes were SOC at the height of the Battle of Britain, as shown by the delivery log details you posted, is impressive.

 

Thank you for sharing so generously.

Edited August 7, 2020 by ClaudioN

[ClaudioN]

Here's another summer teaser, taken once more from "British Military Aircraft Serials" by Bruce Robertson:

Gloster-built Hurricane Mk. I serials P2535-P2584, P2614-P2653, P2672-P2681 (first 100 machines of the first Gloster production contract) with two-blade Watts airscrew and TR.9D radio

rest of the contract from P2682 (400 machines, approximately from Jan. 40) with three-blade Rotol airscrew and TR.1133 radio

 

Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player...

Any ideas whether any of those 100 ever flew with a Watts?

 

[Graham Boak]

In April 1940, 607 Sq in France re-equipped with Hurricanes, almost all of which are from this batch.  I have seen two photos showing the propellers, and both of these were DH.  I further know that Blackadder's replacement machine during the battle had a Rotol, but photos suggest that this was not in this batch.

 

So this limited information doesn't help much.  I only know of one wreck photo that shows the multiple bolt fitting of the Watts, but with no indication of the unit nor serial then this could well be one of the original 1/73 Sq allocation.

 

PS  Thanks for highlighting this, now I know I have to find roundels painted in Gloster's stocks of prewar colours.  Do I mean "thanks"?

[Troy Smith]

24 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

Any ideas whether any of those 100 ever flew with a Watts?

Maybe on test flights. IF they had the two blade prop.

I was noted in a thread somewhere by the late Edgar Brooks that a hurricane fitted with the two blade prop couldn't have back armour fitted.

From photos, these early Gloster P2535 - P2681 had The Hurricane de Havilland prop fitted. 

 eg

D- P2669, J-P2575 and X- P2647. 

 

AFAIK, the only Hurricanes that retained the 2 blade prop were ones fitted with a Merlin II engine that did not have a universal prop spline.

Even in photos in France, very few retained the 2 blade prop.

[Troy Smith]

16 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

now I know I have to find roundels painted in Gloster's stocks of prewar colours.

Note in the 73 Sq post above, 

D- P2669, J-P2575 and X- P2647.  Gloster

Z- N2358, W N2391, TP-E, N2359 (note in this shot, but the back plane)  Hawker 2nd batch

Show noticeable difference in tone of the roundels between the Hawker of Gloster built planes.  Note the rudder stripes appear the same tone as well.

 

I suspect that earlier on Gloster planes had the bright colours repainted. 

Note this famous shot of Gleed's LK-A, P2798,   and note the badly flaked and much lighter in tone roundel of the photographic plane. 

 

The main image for showing different roundel colours if the one of a 303 Sq planes posted on the Arma Hoby blog.

 

http://armahobbynews.pl/en/blog/2018/10/27/sergeant-frantisek-the-best-of-the-few/

 

 

"Photo of two famous František Hurricanes Mk I. In the background V7235/RF-M, which he has landed forgotting to drop undercarriage on 8 August 1940. In the foreground is the R4175/RF-R on which he has achieved nine of his seventeen kills in Battle of Britain. Noteworthy is difference of national insignia shades. RF-R has lighter shade of fin-flash (painted by Gloster factory) than underwing roundels (paintedin unit with stdandart colours). RF-M has all insignia painted with standard colours. Wojtek Matusiak collection photo."

 

Some may have been repainted at MU's,.  or at squadron level, but less likely at the heat of the BoB is my suggestion.

 

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

1 hour ago, ClaudioN said:

Here's another summer teaser, taken once more from "British Military Aircraft Serials" by Bruce Robertson:

Gloster-built Hurricane Mk. I serials P2535-P2584, P2614-P2653, P2672-P2681 (first 100 machines of the first Gloster production contract) with two-blade Watts airscrew and TR.9D radio rest of the contract from P2682 (400 machines, approximately from Jan. 40) with three-blade Rotol airscrew and TR.1133 radio

 Glosters,  Interestingly the language used keeps referring to contract but there are two contract numbers and 1 requisition number.
Contract 962371/38 requisition 195/38 500 mark I, completed 13 July 1940  (but the contract also includes 292 from Brooklands and 232 from Langley, so 524 Hawker, 500 Gloster, total 1,024 aircraft)

Contract B19773/39 requisition 195/38 100 mark I, completed 9 August 1940, so all up 1,024 aircraft being covered.

Engine Merlin III.  Contract summary, original order 1,000 amended to 1,100 then 1,120 then 1,124.  Ignoring blackout blocks the initial 1,000 serials are P2835-P3264 (500 a/c) Gloster, P3265-P3984 (500 a/c) Hawker

 

The contract card marks P2682 as the first Gloster Hurricane fitted with Rotol airscrew, which is number 101 of the order.   It does NOT say what the earlier production were fitted with.  The general notes agree, while stating all aircraft from Hawkers off this contract have Rotol airscrews.  The notes also state the first 100 (so to P2681) Gloster aircraft fitted for TR9D, remainder for TR1133 (which can also take TR9D) SB911 dd? 20 November 1939.

Gloster officially built 100 Hurricanes to the end of February 1940

 

P3720-P3734 (Hawker Brooklands) are for Iran, aircraft to be replaced on contract.  Memo from ? 4 May 1940.  Cancelled, instead the 15 to be delivered to RAF completed to the same standard as the 35 (55? crossed out) Hurricanes modified by Hawkers to tropical standard at Maintenance Units. SB2202 ?13A add? 13 June 1940.  Aircraft fitted DH 2 pitch airscrews, which is what the delivery logs also report.

 

Additional 100 to be delivered by Glosters on B19773/39 (originally ordered as airframes equipped to column 8? of appendix A; amended? to aircraft ? dd 10 October 1939 from E1a to C23a, R4074-R4123, R4171-R4200, R4213-R4232

 

Additional 20 to be delivered by Hawkers on 962371/38, P8809-P8818, R2680-R2689.
Additional 4 to be delivered by Hawkers on 962371/38, W6667-W6670

 

There is a note about delivery rate of 40 to 50 per week but not whether it applies to the entire order or one or other of Hawker or Gloster.  Assuming both then 40 per week was attained in April 1940, 50 in May, pushing 80 in June.

1 hour ago, ClaudioN said:

Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player...

Agreed, how about instead we just set fire to it while you play?  Under the everyone is sometimes an extreme critic rules.

 

On a more somber note what is the time out for an edit session, before the system logs you out? 

[ClaudioN]

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I have seen two photos showing the propellers, and both of these were DH.

4 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

It was noted in a thread somewhere by the late Edgar Brooks that a Hurricane fitted with the two blade prop couldn't have back armour fitted.

From photos, these early Gloster P2535 - P2681 had the Hurricane de Havilland prop fitted.

AFAIK, the only Hurricanes that retained the 2 blade prop were ones fitted with a Merlin II engine that did not have a universal prop spline.

Thank you Graham and Troy! 

 

3 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

The notes also state the first 100 (so to P2681) Gloster aircraft fitted for TR9D, remainder for TR1133 (which can also take TR9D)

Thank you Geoffrey. The photo of Gloster-built P2569, P2575 and P2647 and Hawker-built N2358, N2391 and N2359 in post #1677 shows that all of them have the older style aerial mast. This may explain the meaning of "fitted for TR9D". The pointed mast seems to be a kind of "universal" fitting, then?

[Mark Postlethwaite]

The official report into fitting rear armour into Hurricanes states that it could be fitted into a two bladed prop aircraft if the flare tube was removed.  It did however recommend that the DH or Rotol prop be fitted as a preferred alternative as their extra weight shifted the CofG back within acceptable limits.  There also another report somewhere that mentions that all Hurricanes in France have been fitted with back armour, so I would presume from that that the remaining 2 bladers did have the armour fitted and the flare tube removed.

[Dave Fleming]

Quick question, which I should know the answer to but can't remember! If an aircraft has a two bladed prop, does it definitely have fabric wings?

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Dave Fleming said:

If an aircraft has a two bladed prop, does it definitely have fabric wings?

Most likely has fabric wings.  It's stated in some production reports that the early P**** had metal wings and 2 blade props,  but the 2 blade prop was a rough compromise and (from photos) was usually replaced by a constant speed unit, `this is seen on aircraft that were fabric winged. and were built with a 2 blade prop,  and had that replaced, but not the fabric wings.

a rare tie up is L1926

seen here are OP-M early 1939

 

and here as DU-J in Sep 1940, with a DH Hurricane spinner.

 

There is also a shot of L1926 nosed over in 1942, in Training Command, clearly showing fabric wings.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Yk88ycoGpOIC&lpg=PA26&dq=hurricane l1926&pg=PA26#v=onepage&q&f=true

[Graham Boak]

On 8/8/2020 at 9:39 PM, ClaudioN said:

Thank you Graham and Troy! 

 

Thank you Geoffrey. The photo of Gloster-built P2569, P2575 and P2647 and Hawker-built N2358, N2391 and N2359 in post #1677 shows that all of them have the older style aerial mast. This may explain the meaning of "fitted for TR9D". The pointed mast seems to be a kind of "universal" fitting, then?

TR9D was the HF radio that required an aerial between the mast and the fin.  It continued in use overseas for some time, being part of the Tropical fit for the Spitfire Mk.V.

 

The later radio was VHF and didn't require the cable and hence no locating points on the mast or the fin. 

[Dave Fleming]

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Most likely has fabric wings.  It's stated in some production reports that the early P**** had metal wings and 2 blade props,  but the 2 blade prop was a rough compromise and (from photos) was usually replaced by a constant speed unit, `this is seen on aircraft that were fabric winged. and were built with a 2 blade prop,  and had that replaced, but not the fabric wings.

a rare tie up is L1926

seen here are OP-M early 1939

 

and here as DU-J in Sep 1940, with a DH Hurricane spinner.

 

There is also a shot of L1926 nosed over in 1942, in Training Command, clearly showing fabric wings.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Yk88ycoGpOIC&lpg=PA26&dq=hurricane l1926&pg=PA26#v=onepage&q&f=true

Thanks Troy,

 

funny, I was just looking at that nose over shot in that book.

[Graham Boak]

The 2-bladed prop was replaced in production, and in service examples such as those quoted above, by the 3-bladed variable pitch DH unit, but this was not constant speed.  The first constant speed prop into service was the Rotol, partly because of its head start and partly because the Ministry and DH could not agree on a price for their cs version of the established vp prop.  After the fall of France, there is a story that an RAF officer was responsible for arranging a rapid conversion of the in-service vp props into cs ones: it seems likely to me that DH had anticipated the order and had stocks in hand.

 

AFAIK, it is not possible to tell a DH vp prop from their cs prop: the blades are the same but just maybe the spinner is slightly longer.

[Dave Fleming]

 

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

The 2-bladed prop was replaced in production, and in service examples such as those quoted above, by the 3-bladed variable pitch DH unit, but this was not constant speed.  The first constant speed prop into service was the Rotol, partly because of its head start and partly because the Ministry and DH could not agree on a price for their cs version of the established vp prop.  After the fall of France, there is a story that an RAF officer was responsible for arranging a rapid conversion of the in-service vp props into cs ones: it seems likely to me that DH had anticipated the order and had stocks in hand.

 

AFAIK, it is not possible to tell a DH vp prop from their cs prop: the blades are the same but just maybe the spinner is slightly longer.

 

I'm looking mainly at two blade options to go with the new release of the Airfix kit (which has both the two blade and 3 bladed sprues). Might look at other 3 blade options later, using the extras in the Arma kit

[gingerbob]

11 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

AFAIK, it is not possible to tell a DH vp prop from their cs prop: the blades are the same but just maybe the spinner is slightly longer.

 

Why would the spinner be different?  The prop was not changed (AFAIK), just the mechanism by which pitch was controlled.  The later Hydromatic (DH) prop may have a longer spinner...  [Note that I associate the latter with Spitfires, don't know if Hurris used it too.]

Edited August 11, 2020 by gingerbob

[Graham Boak]

This is because of the time I spent some years back staring at photos of Sea Hurricane Mk.Is, convinced that their spinners were longer and pointier than the DH I was used to.   I was used to modelling DH props off Spitfires, with their wider bases.  The photo above post #1690 looks slightly pointier than the Spitfire example, but didn't seem quite as long as those I remembered from SHs, so I added a qualification.  The actuation mechanism is different to that before, but I don't know how this is resolved mechanically inside the hub so I thought caution desirable.

 

I believe that Hurricanes had gone completely over to Rotols before the Hydromatics came into use.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

17 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

Quick question, which I should know the answer to but can't remember! If an aircraft has a two bladed prop, does it definitely have fabric wings?

As built yes.  At end of life, maybe, given wings could be replaced during repairs or overhauls.

 

First order L1547-L2146 (600 a/c).  Second order N2318-N2729 (300 a/c) (ignoring blackout blocks)

 

Contract cards notes and individual entries,

L1877 Metal Wings (Production aircraft number 331) AMDP at Hawkers, the trials aircraft.
L1909 first Merlin III Engine fitting (Production aircraft number 363)
L1980 first variable pitch propeller fitting (Production aircraft number 432)
L2026 fitted with Rotol airscrew.  AMDP at Hawkers, so another trials aircraft. (Production aircraft number 480)
N2398 start of TR.1133 radio fits (Production aircraft number 669)
N2426 last aircraft with fabric wings (Production aircraft number 685)

 

26 May 1939 Hawkers to select one aircraft for fitment of DH constant speed airscrew, if trials successful 3 others to be fitted for service trials.

L2061, L2066, L2071, L2076 fitted with unanodised gravity fuel and oil tanks.

No objection to mixing fabric covered and stressed skin wings in squadrons.

 

Delivery Logs, fitted metal covered wings
L2026-L2028, L2039, L2045-L2047, L2055, L2058, L2065-L2068, L2077-L2079

 

The contract cards show when the various changes were made and in theory from then on that was the new standard but there is certainly room for exceptions, like the P serial aircraft delivered with fabric wings, all the Hawkers P serials were reported fitted with Rotol airscrews as noted before.

P3265 Rotol airscrew for de-icing trials

P3720-P3734 originally meant for Iran, DH 2 pitch airscrews
P3975 first aircraft of (200?) to be delivered with Jablo blades. (From Langley only?)

 

V serials mark I contract card says Merlin III, airscrew Rotol type RX/52.  (V7200-7862, ignoring blackout blocks, AS987-AS990)

[224 Peter]

I'm indebted to everyone who has contributed to this thread, and for the information they have provided. 

A long time ago, in 1973, Revell released their new 1/32 scale Hurricane. 

I had been given a 1941 bound copy of Fighter Pilot, by an anonymous fighter pilot, named Paul, about his participation in the battle in France, from 8th September 1939 to 13th June 1940. 

As a wartime publication the book had been censored all I knew was that the pilot served with No 1 squadron.

I decided to build the kit to represent Pauls aircraft. I started, but the project stalled. More recently I got a copy of the 1990 edition: I discovered the author was Paul Richey and the last edition had been produced by Paul's wife, Diana. 

 

From the information in the book and all the knowledge gained from this forum I came to know that:

 

1. The original kit isn't bad, dimensionally accurate, other than the cockpit canopy. An aftermarket vac form has solved that problem. 

2. The Aircraft was coded G, 

3. The serial was L1697

4. It had a watts 2 bladed prop...

 

And of course, it must have had fabric wings...the kit is a metal winged version.....

 

So, what to do? 

 

After all the years I've been working on this kit I can't bin it....

SO.... I'll stick with my plan and make Paul's aircraft, even though the wing is wrong....

 

Look out for "Ready for Inspection!! 

 

Peter

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by 224 Peter
update

[dogsbody]

On the fabric-winged Hurricane, would the undersurface aluminum dope look the same on the metal bits as on the fabric? And would that be the same look as the u/c bays? Would it be a dead matte, like the uppersurface finish, or with a bit of a sheen?

 

 

Chris

[Work In Progress]

It's semi-gloss: look at any pre-war RAF biplane for the tone. It does not colour-shift according to whether it's over primed metal or red-doped linen.

[Dave Fleming]

I'd describe it as 'satin' with a sheen. This shot shows it quite well, note the upper surfaces were not dead matt either, but had a slight sheen as well. (In fact I always thing the metal parts on the upper looked slightly different in finish)

 

The difference with pre-war silver RAF fighters (and the Hurri prototype) is that their metal panels were polished rather than painted, so you do get a difference on those.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Dave Fleming

[Work In Progress]

5 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

The difference with pre-war silver RAF fighters (and the Hurri prototype) is that their metal panels were polished rather than painted, so you do get a difference on those.

Sometimes polished.

Sometimes aluminium doped.