All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

[Seahawk]

According to Mason, op cit, Contract 962371/38 [suffix /C for Gloster] covered 500 Gloster Hurricanes, delivered 12/39-4/40, and 500 Hawker Hurricanes plus 44 attrition replacements, built at Brooklands and Langley and delivered between 2/40 and 7/40.  Both Hawker and Gloster were delivering approximately 3 aircraft a day.  In addition up until 1 May 1940 Hawker were still delivering 2 Hurricanes a day (Nxxxx serialled aircraft) under Contract 751458/38 (deliveries started 29 Nov 1939).  If Mason is right that Gloster completed their contract in April 40, it is tempting to speculate that some of the Hawker contract was quietly transferred to Gloster, whom they had taken over in 1934 - but equally hard to believe that such a change would have escaped unrecorded.  But I'm way out of my comfort zone now.

[Graham Boak]

It looks as though Mason is clearly wrong.  Both sites may have been producing 3 aircraft per day, but this will have been a peak value because Glosters will have been unable to hit this rate from the beginning.  There will have been a ramp up from some smaller monthly total, which means they would be unable to reach 500 in the elapsed time.

[gingerbob]

See my post bottom of previous page.

 

[michael_hase]

Another Question about the Finnish Hurricanes.....

 

Hello,

thanks a lot for your answers and your sharing of info with us. My 1/72nd - Airfix/AlleyCat-conversion is taking shape, however not without problems and setbacks..

 

http://modellboard.net/index.php/topic,61858.0.html

 

As the Finnish Hurricanes were overhauled British aircraft delivered at the beginning of 1940, the painting is pretty much clear and the combination of British DG/DE over white/black/silver together with the yellow stripes and panels for the first part of the Continuation War will certainly be someting else in any collection. Certainly the "War-Paint" would be nice as well but ....

My question is about the cockpit window and the additional armour-glass there. The partially restored HC-452 (N2393) at Tikkakoski carries a window with internal glass armour now. My understanding would be that in February 1940 when this aircraft was delivered, the Hurricanes only had external glass armour fixed. Would that be correct for the time? Please correct me but I always have been of the opinion that the front-windows with internal armour came later than this time.

Many thanks for a short info

Have a nice Sunday evening

Yours

Michael

 

 

 

[Fin]

Can someone show me a clear photo of the bead associated with the early gun sights (the ones with the ring)? I`m not sure if it`s just a rod or has some details on it. I apologize if it has been shown before, but I could not find it in the 58 pages of the thread.

[Max Headroom]

2 hours ago, Fin said:

Can someone show me a clear photo of the bead associated with the early gun sights (the ones with the ring)? I`m not sure if it`s just a rod or has some details on it. I apologize if it has been shown before, but I could not find it in the 58 pages of the thread.

Does this help?

 

https://goo.gl/images/aR7pjf

 

Trevor

[72modeler]

1 hour ago, Max Headroom said:

Does this help?

 

https://goo.gl/images/aR7pjf

 

Trevor

Trevor,

 

Couldn't locate a decent photo of one on a Hurricane, but found a good photo of the ring and bead on a preserved Spitfire Mk 1- if it's not identical to the one fitted to a Hurricane, I would think it would still be a useful reference. Scroll 'way down to see the photo. Hope this helps!

Mike

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/312923-spitfire-f-i-early-production-model-new-tier-i-aircraft-with-a-punch/

 

[dogsbody]

Here's a variation on the bead post:

 

 

Another:

 

 

 

 

Here's a regular post sight:

 

 

 

An RCAF:

 

 

 

 

It's not easy to find good, clear images of such a small detail.

 

 

 

Chris

[Max Headroom]

@dogsbody I’ve never seen the ‘weathervane’ version before!

 

Trevor

[dogsbody]

On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 2:01 PM, Max Headroom said:

@dogsbody I’ve never seen the ‘weathervane’ version before!

 

Trevor

Neither have I. I was just trawling through IWM, looking for bead sight pictures when I found it. I may have seen it before, but just wasn't looking for that particular detail.

Who knew that doing bugger-all in my retirement would prove so interesting and useful?

 

 

Chris

[Fin]

Thank you all!

20 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Trevor,

 

Couldn't locate a decent photo of one on a Hurricane, but found a good photo of the ring and bead on a preserved Spitfire Mk 1- if it's not identical to the one fitted to a Hurricane, I would think it would still be a useful reference. Scroll 'way down to see the photo. Hope this helps!

Mike

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/312923-spitfire-f-i-early-production-model-new-tier-i-aircraft-with-a-punch/

 

Yes, that`s the sort of close up I was hoping for. It looks much the same as the ones on the AVG P-40B. If that`s what the Hurricane used too it would be great as I actually have a Master set for the P-40B. :D

[Tom MacLean]

I also found another link:

 

http://www.hurricaneheritage.com/gallery/

 

So what is the consensus for the interior frame color for the Hurricane MK.I 87 Sqn?  IS it the dark green or silver?

Edited April 5, 2019 by Tom MacLean
spelling

[Smithy]

Thanks for the link Tom and what marvellous photos.

 

Troy with be along hopefully shortly, he's your man for all things Hurricane related.

 

And actually without meaning to throw another fly in the ointment but I'm sure I will as this is another interior question for @Troy Smith ...I was having a sniff through an oldish copy of MAM (November 2005) about early Hurris (it came out to coincide with the Classic Airframes kit which I'm thinking of finally dragging out in the not too distant future) and they say something very interesting about very early Hurricane interiors:

 

"Surviving examples of parts of Hurricanes from this period [the very first examples of the production line] that I have seen, show the interior walls to be painted dull Aluminium with the metal framework and rudder heel boards in a blue/green shade. Seats were often natural metal or painted in the same blue/green shade."

 

Does anyone have any inkling of what this "blue/green" shade was? Troy do you have any idea what this might refer to? I found it slightly intriguing.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Smithy

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Tom MacLean said:

I also found another link:

 

http://www.hurricaneheritage.com/gallery/

 

So what is the consensus for the interior frame color for the Hurricane MK.I 87 Sqn?  IS it the dark green or silver?

 

Which 87 Sq Mk.I?   I didn't see one in the link?

 

1 hour ago, Smithy said:

Thanks for the link Tom and what marvellous photos.

 

Troy with be along hopefully shortly, he's your man for all things Hurricane related.

 

And actually without meaning to throw another fly in the ointment but I'm sure I will as this is another interior question for @Troy Smith ...I was having a sniff through an oldish copy of MAM (November 2005) about early Hurris (it came out to coincide with the Classic Airframes kit which I'm thinking of finally dragging out in the not too distant future) and they say something very interesting about very early Hurricane interiors:

 

"Surviving examples of parts of Hurricanes from this period [the very first examples of the production line] that I have seen, show the interior walls to be painted dull Aluminium with the metal framework and rudder heel boards in a blue/green shade. Seats were often natural metal or painted in the same blue/green shade."

 

Does anyone have any inkling of what this "blue/green" shade was? Troy do you have any idea what this might refer to? I found it slightly intriguing.

 

No.   I don't know.  This grey-green colour perhaps, it's bluer than usually thought of.

the bit I highlighted sounds like a they swapped over what they were describing,    which is what below shows.

 

 

 Do they say what Hurricanes the parts are from? 

 The interior colour question comes up periodically.   From the evidence I know of, Hurricane up to some point in 1942 (except for the 300 built by Austin Motors, which is film of the production line)  are apart from the rear bulkhead and the wooden bits of the cockpit walls , the rest is painted aluminium paint.

 

see here, colour photos of 3 unrestored examples, are as described

and this, which is a load of German photos of Hurricane wrecks in France May/June 1940

In each image, light tone framework. internals, and seat, mid/dark tone bulkhead.   I doubt you will find a better random selection of internals through early Hurricanes. 

I'm going to quote this to make it clear. 

 

There is one exception, which is this very early plane, with 111 Squadron being inspected by George VI in 1938

 

In this the internals do not look light.    Hmm,  another feature of this I just noticed, note the fabric covered panle by wing root, and the darker tone of join strip and panel between king and rear fabric panel, behind the gun bays is the same tone as the fabric parts, fabric over the metal?  odd. 

Every other photo I have seen otherwise, and how many shows the insides....

 

But then we have the below,  courtesy of snap happy victorious Germans, and 70 years later, ebay.de,  and selling off of said snaps

 

In each image, light tone framework and seat, mid/dark tone bulkhead. 

 

 

On 15/04/2015 at 02:06, Troy Smith said:

Reasonably early Hurricane, fabric wing, DH prop, wrecked in France, this a German ebay photo, posted up on the defunct LEMB.

Of note as it shows a dark backplate, along with a aluminium seat and framework.

IIRC Edgar posted up information about Spitfire finishes, that the cockpit were to be grey-green and the rest of the internals painted aluminium, and the Hurricane logic is that the internal framework is part of the structure, hence aluminium.

There are a lot of German photos of Hurricane wrecks in France in May/June 1940 that have been appeared on ebay Germany over the past few years.

While unfortunately for identification many of the fuselages have been stripped of fabric, they do consistently show that the internal framework as being a very light tone, which is how aluminium usually photographs.

 

Problem is finding shots which show the above detail clearly.

The following are all early Rotol plane, both Gloster and Hawker were building them, and no serial visible in most, but compare to the very clear above shot for contrast between grey-green and aluminium paint.

note the framework is all aluminium,

again, early Rotol, all visible framework aluminium

 

 

 

 

 

back plate dark, framework light, early Rotol

 

 

 

 

 

 

Probably a Rotol, note just visible splintered blade

 

 

 

this is an earlier plane, note DH Prop and straight aerial pole, and just visible cockpit detail

 

 

this is a very early Hurricane, fabric wing, two blade prop

 

 

Always interested in anything new,  or contradictory.     

 

 

Much of this has really only been available for a few years,  certainly in a readily accessible collated form, so a 2005 publication counts as 'old'  and likely to be incorrect. 

 

HTH

 

 

[Smithy]

Great stuff Troy and wonderful pictures.

 

Sadly there's nothing more in the article about specifics about this "blue/green" colour but what intrigued me most was that it appeared that this was based on actual inspection of surviving parts and that this section of the article was by Neil Robinson, someone who as you know has spent quite a bit of time around the aircraft and Hurri artefacts.

 

I'm just really interested in hearing more about this supposed blue/green colour and if there is physical evidence for its existence.

 

I've got the Classic Airframes kit planned for a very early 111 Sqn job and it's a fun idea to do it with a different blue/green on some interior parts if there is historic evidence for a colour which was used on the very early production Hurricanes.

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Smithy said:

I'm just really interested in hearing more about this supposed blue/green colour and if there is physical evidence for its existence.

My guess, it's original parts that have shifted over the years, from a blue hued grey-green.  Note the 2nd quoted photo.  Is Mr Robinson still about to ask?  

These bits do not look very grey-green, but you have some Pantone samples  to calibrate your settings.   

On 09/04/2011 at 15:04, Kari Lumppio said:

Something for those who like to analyse colours with computers. Genuine Pantone fan page with samples of pure yellow, magenta, cyan and black. White is also provided with the page.

 

 

On 13/04/2011 at 13:47, Kari Lumppio said:

Hello!

A Finnish colleague who has researched this stuff commented that the Finnish Hurricanes got armour installed in April-May 1940.

That is too early for them to be Finnish-made. So probably the green on the armour is also Interior Green.

I attach pictures of the back armour..:



... and the curved head armour, both with the Pantone cyan, magenta, yellow and black samples.

The greens seem to differ somewhat, head armour being slightly yellowish?

Cheers,

 

 

Pics From  this thread,   

 

1 hour ago, Smithy said:

I've got the Classic Airframes kit planned

read this

 

[Smithy]

Those are very interesting Troy. TBH, my main interest as you probably know, is in squadron and associated personnel histories so technical aircraft details are not my strongest point so I have no idea whether this colour referred to by Ian was a different colour, an interpretation of a known colour or a colour which had experienced weathering due to time/light/oxidation factors.

 

 

 

[dogsbody]

I have a question about painting. What colour dope would be used on the fabric covered areas of the early fabric-winged Hurricanes? Would it have been the red-brown or aluminum dope? 

Also, the aluminum dope would have a semi-gloss sheen to it, wouldn't it? I'm asking because I reached the painting stage of my RCAF fabric-winged Hurc and would like to know what I need for a clear coat over the underside decals.

 

 

 

Chris

[Troy Smith]

45 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

What colour dope would be used on the fabric covered areas of the early fabric-winged Hurricanes? Would it have been the red-brown or aluminum dope? 

Red brown as the primer sealer, aluminium as the top finish coat. 

The aluminium finish maybe best described as satin I'd suggest, glossier than eggshell, if that makes sense?

[Work In Progress]

I would agree with that. It starts out pretty glossy when it's properly fresh, but never anything like modern car paint, and with exposure to the outside world and handling quickly becomes satin. It can eventually weather to what is often practically indistinguishable from a flat very pale grey, but that's probably further that I'd go to represent anything in service with a reasonably caring owner.

[dogsbody]

Thank you, gentlemen! I knew I'd get quick, informative replies here. So, a nice satin undersurface for my Hurc. They were only in Canadian service for about a year before they were sent back to Britain with No.1 Squadron.

 

 

 

Chris

[Ed Russell]

Can anyone shed light on this picture? Is it a badly reproduced copy of a well-known picture? Is it fake or real? The caption was (apparently) France 1940.

[Troy Smith]

59 minutes ago, Ed Russell said:

Can anyone shed light on this picture? Is it a badly reproduced copy of a well-known picture? Is it fake or real? The caption was (apparently) France 1940.

Yes, saw it in a scan of a French magazine, about 73 squadron.

ah, OK, found it

Pic looks real,  France spring 1940 certainly,  73 sq had rudder stripes. 

if you click the image it should enlarge,  serial given as L1962, and there is some information in the caption that has some guess on colours.

My French is so poor I'd  not like to hazard a guess,  but there is comments about a B roundel and speculation as to the over paint colour.

 

One suggestion, as to the radically different appearance of the underwing roundels and crudely overpainted serial, is this is a replacement wing.

 

HTH

T

[Smithy]

It's from part 2 of Many Souffan's piece about Cobber Kain which ran in Replic - both articles are excellent BTW and include a number of very good colour profiles.

 

It is supposedly L1962 and was written off after this crash on the 12th March, this is further borne out in Don Minterne's history of 73 Sqn.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Smithy
Typo

[silberpferd]

14 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

My French is so poor I'd  not like to hazard a guess,  but there is comments about a B roundel and speculation as to the over paint colour.

The caption says that there was a white surround of that B roundel that had been covered with either Grey or Sky paint. The serial was over painted in white.

 

Laurent