All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

[StevSmar]

Appears to be some sort of adjustment...

Thanks Mike, it certainly does look like an adjuster, of some sort. Wonder if it was for making the guns safe? I don't think this was used for adjusting when this would likely have been done from the access panels on the top?

The ammunition chutes look a bit beat up too...

Edited March 18, 2015 by StevSmar

[Work In Progress]

The ammunition chutes look a bit beat up too...

Almost as if they have repeatedly been bashed into by quite heavy chunks of brass moving at high speed... can't imagine what could cause that...

[MIkeMaben]

...possibly nothing to do with the guns and apparently went away with the fabric wing...??

[tango98]

Sean,

I sent the email and attachments to your work email address.

Cheers

Dave

[MrBitsyModeller]

What colours are used inside the radiator cowling for Hurricanes with black/white wing undersides? Does the black/white extend into the front/rear of the housing, or is it just a metal finish? Can't find any photos to show this on early Hurricanes.

[PhantomBigStu]

you can also just make out the camoflage just aft of the cockpit EDIT can this be deleted I was inadvertently replying to a old post as I didn't see I wasn't on the last page

Edited March 29, 2015 by PhantomBigStu

[Miggers]

Looks like someone has also pinched it's wheels too.

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Quick question on Mk II Hurricanes, did both the Mk IIB and IIC carry bombs and drop tanks in North Africa on various occasions?

thanks

Mike

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

In addition to my above question, would the bombs just be 250lb bombs or did they use 500lb bombs as well? Also did they carry a mix of 1 bomb and 1 drop tank, or just symmetrical loads?

thanks

Mike

[Graham Boak]

Initially 250lb, later 500lb, but symmetric. The only asymmetric loads carried were rockets and tanks by Mk.IVs, in Italy.

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Thanks Graham, I thought that would probably be the case.

thanks

Mike

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Gloucester built Hurri Mk 1 national marking colours? Bright pre-war on all markings or just the rudder? discuss

Jonners

[Work In Progress]

All of them, as it came out of the factory.

[Troy Smith]

Gloucester built Hurri Mk 1 national marking colours? Bright pre-war on all markings or just the rudder? discuss

Jonners

All of them, as it came out of the factory.

Hmm, interesting point from Jonners

here's a Gloster built plane, with added fin stripes, pretty faded example.

regarding Gloster's use of Bright Red/Bright Blue, what proof is there of this, and if so, when did it stop?

I mention this as Gloster built 4 blocks

http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

Block 1/G, First Gloster Produced Block

Serial Range P2535 - P2584 (50), P2614 - P2653 (40), P2672 - P2701 (30), P2713 - P2732 (20), P2751 - P2770 (20), P2792 - P2836 (45), P2854 - P2888 (35), P2900 - P2924 (25), P2946 - P2995 (50), P3020 - P3069 (50), P3080 - P3124 (45), P3140 - P3179 (40), P3200 - P3234 (35), P3250 - P3264 (15) - Total 500

First batch of 500 Mk. I Hurricanes Built by Gloster Aircraft deliveries commenced in November, 1939 and were completed by April 1940, the average rate of production was three aircraft per day.

Block 2/G, Second Gloster Produced Block

Serial Range R4074 - R4123 (50), R4171 - R4200 (30), R4213 - R4232 (20) Total 100

The second production batch of 100 aircraft manufactured by Gloster Aircraft Co., Brockworth. To contract 19773/39/23a. Aircraft powered by Rolls-Royce Merlin III's, with either Watts two blade fixed pitch, or De-Havilland three blade variable pitch propellers. All aircraft delivered between May 1940 and July 1940

Block 3/G, Third Gloster Produced Block

Serial Range V6533 - V6582 (50) Mk. I, V6600 - V6649 (50) Mk. I, V6665 - V6704 (40) Mk. I, V6722 - V6761 (40) Mk. I, V6776 - V6825 (50) Mk. I, V6840 - V6889 (50) Mk. I, V6913 - V6962 (50) Mk. I, V6979 - V7028 (50) Mk. I, V7042 - V7081 (40) Mk. I, V7099 - V7138 (40) Mk. I, V7156 - V7195 (40) Mk. I, W9110 - W9159 (50) Mk. I, W9170 - W9209 (40) Mk. I, W9215 - W9244 (30) Mk. I, W9260 - W9279 (20) Mk. I, W9290 - W9329 (40) Mk. I, W9340 - W9359 (20) Mk. I, Z4022 - Z4071 (50) Mk. I, Z4085 - Z4119 (35) Mk. I, Z4161 - Z4205 (45) Mk. I, Z4223 - Z4272 (50) Mk. I, Z4308 - Z4327 (20) Mk. I, Z4347 - Z4391 (45) Mk. I, Z4415 - Z4434 (20) Mk. I, Z4482 - Z4516 (35) Mk. I, Z4532 - Z4581 (50) Mk. I, Z4603 - Z4652 (50) Mk. I, Z4686 - Z4720 (35) Mk. I, Z4760 - Z4809 (50) Mk. I, Z4832 - Z4876 (45) Mk. I, Z4920 - Z4939 (20) Mk. I, Z4940 - Z4969 (30) Mk. IIA, Z4987 - Z4989 (3) Mk. IIA, Z4990 - Z5006 (17) Mk. IIB, Z5038 - Z5087 (50) Mk. IIB, Z5117 - Z5161 (45) Mk. IIB, Z5202 - Z5236 (35) Mk. IIB, Z5252 - Z5271 (20) Mk. IIB, Z5302 - Z5351 (50) Mk. IIB, Z5376 - Z5395 (20) Mk. IIB, Z5434 - Z5483 (50) Mk. IIB, Z5529 - Z5563 (35) Mk. IIB, Z5580 - Z5629 (50) Mk. IIB, Z5649 - Z5693 (45) Mk. IIB - Total 1,700

Third production batch of 1,700 aircraft built by Gloster Aircraft Co, to contract 85730/40/23a. Powered by Rolls-Royce Merlin III or Rolls-Royce Merlin XX engines, driving Rotol or De-Havilland three blade variable pitch propellers. Aircraft delivered between July 1940 and August 1941, average rate of production 4-5 aircraft per day.

Block 4/G, Fourth Gloster Produced Block

Serial Range BG674 - BG723 (50), BG737 - BG771 (35), BG783 - BG832 (50), BG844 - BG888 (45), BG901 - BG920 (20), BG933 - BG977 (45), BG990 - BG999 (10), BH115 - BH154 (40), BH167 - BH201 (35), BH215 - BH264 (50), BH277 - BH296 (20), BH312 - BH361 (50) Total 450

BH374 - BH408 (35), BH422 - BH471 (50), BH489 - BH508 (20), BH524 - BH568 (45), BH575 - BH614 (40), BH630 - BH664 (35), BH679 - BH723 (45) Total 270, Order cancelled 270 aircraft not built.

The fourth production block manufactured by Gloster Aircraft Limited at Brockworth, Gloucestershire. Powered by Rolls-Royce Merlin XX engines. The aircraft were delivered between September, 1941 and December, 1941. The average rate of production was 4-5 aircraft per day.

Another area of photo searching and comparisons to ponder on then...

[Edgar]

Gloucester built Hurri Mk 1 national marking colours? Bright pre-war on all markings or just the rudder? discuss

Who says bright was pre-war, only, and where's the evidence that all wartime roundels were dull? Roundels were there to be seen, and used as a recognition tool, and the fin stripes were added as an extra item, yet we're expected to believe that they were promptly dulled-down to make them less visible, why?

Just as important is the question - how? In a list of early-war colours, the only dull red and blue are for fabric surfaces, a carry-over from their use on fabric-covered night bombers. For all other surfaces there are only red and blue, and while it seems normal for "experts" to assume that these were supposed to be dull, anyone who takes time to study Air Ministry Orders will find that the A.M. did not leave things open to interpretation, and spelt things out exactly; if they didn't say "dull," it's a clear indication they were not dull.

We've had this before, with it being assumed that, when the A.M. specified Sky for tropical use, they meant Sky Blue, when there's absolutely no evidence of that. Air Ministry Orders should not be "interpreted," but taken at face value, and worked with from there.

Back to the slit trench.

[Relja]

yes...it'll have fabric wings

Sorry, more precisely, it's generally thought that about 600 Hurricanes were built with fabric wings, most are in the L**** [*= any number] series.

It's been stated some from the N**** serialed batch have fabric wings, I've not seen any photographic proof of this.

http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

Best bet is a photo, though it's not always possible to tell.

In short, fabric winged options are RAF - Pre war, phoney war/Battle of France, and a few in the Battle of Britain, though the new standard planes went to operational squadrons, with many of the surviving fabric wing planes sent to Training units and C category squadrons. i know of two still fabric winged planes in training command in 1942.

some Finnish and most Yugoslav and Belgian planes were fabric winged.

Do you need to know what the details too look for fabric winged?

Yugoslav Hurricanes were delivered from Britain in two batches:

- 12 with fabric covered wings and Watts propellers, later fitted with DeHavilland 3-blades (nos. 1-12, RAF s/n in L17xx and L18xx series)

- 12 with sheet metal covered wings, DeHavilland propellers (nos. 13-24, RAF s/n N2718-2729)

"Zmaj" factory produced additional 24 under licence, and all were fitted with fabric covered wings

Another factrory, "Rogožarski", received a contract for also 24, most of assemblies were finished by April 1941, but not a sngle complete Hurricane.

One a/c (no.1, L1751) was fitted with a spare DB601 engine, as a prototype for the Rogožarski batch, because Yugoslavia was expecting problems with the delivery of RR Merlins from Britain.

Some a/c were fitted with propellers of local design.

Anyway, modellers in Serbia are still guesing about the underside colors of the Hurricanes from second imported batch.

The first batch is well photo-documented during the trials in Britain and also at Zemun Air Base. The Zmaj batch - not so well, but there are a couple of good photos.

It is quite certain that the second imported batch had black and white undersides. These were produced for RAF, with original serials N2718-2729, but were diverted for Yugoslavia.

What is the exact pattern of black/white/silver, where are the break lines - is the real question. There are a few photos and we cannot say for sure if the color is black, or it is just a shadow.

And - it seems that the N27** and other RAF Hurricanes from that production contract were not photographed so much as the machines of L, P, Z and other series...

Edited April 16, 2015 by Relja

[Nickthebrief]

Hello Hurricane experts!

A Google images search for Sea Hurricanes brings up some pictures of a crash reported as being on HMS Ravager, involving two Sea Hurricanes, one of which is NF728. (Apologies that, despite all my best efforts, I have found it impossible to post images onto Britmodeller....)

I think this is the subject of one boxing of the Revell kit in 1:72?

I understand the aircraft is a Mk 2? As it belongs to a training squadron, can I take it the squadron codes are yellow (rather than red that I think Revell give you?)

The photo does not show any cannon. Could it be a machine gun armed Mk 2? I can't remember, but in RAF parlance would that be a Mk 2b? Or is it more likely that, as it seems the aircraft was involved in rocket firing training, might the cannon have been removed? If so, can anyone confirm whether the leading edge of the wing would still have the cannon fairings present? Also, can anyone shed any light on the panels under NF728's wings? I assume they are there for the rockets - but there don't seem to be rocket rails as such?

I'm hoping to build the aircraft in 1:48, but my Hasgawa kit is a machine gun armed Mk 2, so the gun access panels are, I think, wrong for a cannon armed machine, even if the cannon had been removed?

I'm awaiting an Aeromaster decal sheet with this aircraft on it..... Any accuracy issues? Errormaster, perhaps?

Many thanks in anticipation of any assistance.

Nick.

[Graham Boak]

The cannon were removed - and so were the fairing stubs. The blast plates are still mounted on the wing for the rocket rails, they are a significant fairing more solid than just panels. The aircraft were used for rocket training from Inskip, for future Firefly pilots which were also being trained in the North-West (e.g. Burscough), as well as deck-landing training on CVEs, usually HMS Ravager, in the Irish Sea, Yes, this is modelled by Revell in 1/72. (OK, at least one Inskip aircraft is...)

The cannon-armed variant was the Mk.IIc for both the Hurricane and the Sea Hurricane.

The red codes may originate from a profile in the PSL book on modelling the 1/24 Airfix Hurricane, which also includes the double crash photo. There is another photo of a single crash in Philip Birtles' Hurricane The Illustrated History. The photos show light codes which look very different from the red in the roundel. The AJPress Hurricane Vol.4 suggests Sky. Looking at the photo, the letters appear to have the same reflectance as the yellow rim of the roundel, and appear brighter than the undersides, which were Sky. I think that you are right to suggest Yellow codes.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Graham Boak

[Nickthebrief]

Many thanks Graham, that's very helpful.

I shall attempt a smooth leading edge and will have to remind myself what colour the codes on the Aeromaster sheet are...

Your time and trouble are much appreciated.

Nick.

[Troy Smith]

Hello Hurricane experts!

A Google images search for Sea Hurricanes brings up some pictures of a crash reported as being on HMS Ravager, involving two Sea Hurricanes, one of which is NF728. (Apologies that, despite all my best efforts, I have found it impossible to post images onto Britmodeller....)

I think this is the subject of one boxing of the Revell kit in 1:72?

I understand the aircraft is a Mk 2? As it belongs to a training squadron, can I take it the squadron codes are yellow (rather than red that I think Revell give you?)

The photo does not show any cannon. Could it be a machine gun armed Mk 2? I can't remember, but in RAF parlance would that be a Mk 2b? Or is it more likely that, as it seems the aircraft was involved in rocket firing training, might the cannon have been removed? If so, can anyone confirm whether the leading edge of the wing would still have the cannon fairings present? Also, can anyone shed any light on the panels under NF728's wings? I assume they are there for the rockets - but there don't seem to be rocket rails as such?

I'm hoping to build the aircraft in 1:48, but my Hasgawa kit is a machine gun armed Mk 2, so the gun access panels are, I think, wrong for a cannon armed machine, even if the cannon had been removed?

I'm awaiting an Aeromaster decal sheet with this aircraft on it..... Any accuracy issues? Errormaster, perhaps?

Many thanks in anticipation of any assistance.

Nick.

Hello Nick

The Panels under the wing are blast plates for the rockets.

To build this you need a C wing Hurricane. This seems the commonest of the 1/48th Hase Hurricanes, and was reboxed by Revell as well.

But, you would also need the under panel and hook.

Hase did a Sea Hurricane boxing with this in resin, as do MDC, but these are also alternate parts in both the Ark and new tool Airfix Hurricane, I'd suggest the new tool Airfix would fit a Hase kit better, and be better moulded, the Ark kit is rough.

The Italeri IIC is as full of errors as their other kits,

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234935596-sea-hurricane-148-italeri/#entry1390213

and is expensive, the RRP is 29.99! You could pick up a Hase IIC for less if you look. Or, if you really want to do this, the Hase IIB kit is harder to find, so you could probably work out a swap for one.

Note during the war British Aircraft Mk were in Roman numerals, so it's 'II' not '2'. Post was this did change though.

The Hase kit has some problems though.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234967342-best-148-hurricane-kit/#entry1735571

To post photos here they need to be hosted on a server somewhere online. You can't just post from your own computer. There are threads on posting photos.....anyway...the pics you want are below.

Many thanks Graham, that's very helpful.

I shall attempt a smooth leading edge and will have to remind myself what colour the codes on the Aeromaster sheet are...

Your time and trouble are much appreciated.

Nick.

I was in a rush earlier. This was addressed a while back, but not easily searchable, thread heading was

pics needed hurri with rockets/bombs

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234963903-pics-needed-hurri-with-rocketsbombs/

interesting thread.

But, here's the relevant stuff.

and one of the 768 Training squadron IIc's with rockets is #4, mentioned by Graham above, there is a photo of this plane

pics of K1-F here, 3 pics, scroll down.

http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/ESCORT/Galleries/RAVAGER_Gllery_2.htm

October 4th 1944 Sea Hurricane NF722 has bounced over the barriers and collided with

Sea Hurricane NF728 coded 'KI-F'

No rockets as been fired in training, and hard to tell if codes are sky or yellow, though yellow was used by training units.

Your choice on the codes colour, looking at the pics again, the codes are a very similar tone to the roundel yellow.

I can't see any cannon fairings, and you would probably see them even at this angle. The Hase kit has blanked off fairing for the IID version included.

A thought occurs, if these were used with rockets for training, I wonder if they got fitted with 0.303 sighting guns as used on the mk IID/IV?

and from Graham, he noticed the aerials, I didn't!

Those are the pictures of Inskip's Sea Hurris that I was thinking of - thanks for posting them. It shows a good view of the blast plate without the rocket rails. I don't think it is a matter of the rockets having been fired: the rail has been removed for deck landing training on HMS Ravager in the Irish Sea. These aircraft were being used to train future Firefly pilots in ground-attack duties, and the FAA hadn't fitted zero-length launchers by this time. Logically at least some of the SH may have retained cannon armament too, but I've not seen pictures of Inskip fighters with them - it's my local FAA airbase so I do keep an eye out for such things.

I hadn't noticed the two aerials under the belly of the fighters - something useful to add to a model. Presumably to provide the ability to talk to the ships and/or the ranges? I wonder if they are on operational SH in this period?

I hadn't realised/remembered that HMS Vindex had a flight of RP aircraft - they must have been a handful with the weight of four cannon and the weight/drag of the RPs, but then they only had to be faster than a U-boat could dive or an Avenger. Can't have been much in it. To enlarge on your comment about the rockets - the 60lb heads were designed for anti-ship work and the narrow 20lb heads for armour piercing, but it was found that they were more generally useful the other way around. It was discovered that aiming below the waterline did more damage because of the resulting underwater flight path, and the AP head went through the submarine's pressure hull.

Have a read of the links.

One final point, the 2nd pic of of NF728, note the bent prop blade, so metal, as opposed to the Jablo compressed wood composite, which shatter. Like this.

HTH

T

PS - the last scheme on the Aeromaster sheet is one of the HMS Vindex Hurricanes, the decal sheet is wrong, but they did carry a non standard rocket installtion and cannon.

pics and info on these here

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234940217-sea-hurricane-hms-vindex-with-rocketsyour-picture-question/

[Nickthebrief]

Troy,

Your reply is, as ever, extremely comprehensive and very helpful - thank you.

My efforts to post pictures via Photobucket only seem to result in frustration - despite reading all the advice I can find....

I shall amend my plans I think and use my Hasegawa Mk IIb to do the "Torch" aircraft from the Aeromaster sheet, using the lower rear fuselage from my recently purchased Airfix kit. I can then use the Airfix kit to do the Gosport based machine also on the sheet...

I suspect that a Mk IIc will follow if I can find a kit - and if I can find the resin lower fuselage and hook that I know is in my stash somewhere - can't remember who from....

And there was me thinking that Sea Hurricanes offered less variety than Seafires...!!!

Many thanks for all you help.

Nick.

[Graham Boak]

Thanks for the pictures, Troy. Only one aerial under the belly - I think what seems to be another may be support inside the radiator housing. However there is another aerial under the starboard wing - is this the IFF aerial? - and the cable for the HF radio strung between the dorsal mast and the fin. This is much later than front-line use, but perhaps an illustration that nothing goes to waste when training units have to be created?

[Troy Smith]

Only one aerial under the belly - I think what seems to be another may be support inside the radiator housing. However there is another aerial under the starboard wing - is this the IFF aerial? - and the cable for the HF radio strung between the dorsal mast and the fin. This is much later than front-line use, but perhaps an illustration that nothing goes to waste when training units have to be created?

I think your correct on the radiator support.

As for the aerials, very interesting, I must say I have no idea. Good observations, and good questions.

Regarding modelling the Ravager Hurricane in 1/48th.

Silver Cloud did a Mk IV conversion, which had resin blast plates and rockets.

Freightdog have redone the set for the Italeri kit, but had to change the mould as the Italeri kit gets the ejector slots in the wrong place, and the resin keys into these!

This is available though.

Spare blast from a Tamiya Beaufighter might work, as this is an optional part IIRC, or the ones in a Firefly kit.

The Grand Phoenix has them. not sure about Special Hobby.

I'd need to check to be sure, and I can't right now.

The Monogram kit came with rockets and blast plates, but I have not got around to checking if they are any good.

A few more things to add to the 'to check' list.

Or, the plates can be made from plastic card. This has the only drawings I know of.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234925893-rocket-armed-hurricanes-in-the-far-east/#entry1118704

I presume they did also fly with rails and rockets, which would look interesting.

If this took your fancy this is very useful thread.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234938660-colour-of-rockets-fitted-to-hurricane/

My efforts to post pictures via Photobucket only seem to result in frustration - despite reading all the advice I can find....

I shall amend my plans I think and use my Hasegawa Mk IIb to do the "Torch" aircraft from the Aeromaster sheet, using the lower rear fuselage from my recently purchased Airfix kit. I can then use the Airfix kit to do the Gosport based machine also on the sheet...

I suspect that a Mk IIc will follow if I can find a kit - and if I can find the resin lower fuselage and hook that I know is in my stash somewhere - can't remember who from....

Try using a different browser with photobucket, they tend to go for compatibility with the newest versions. I don't what you use, if you don't use them try Firefox or Chrome and see if they work.

Or use another image host. I find Postimage easy.

Hase IIC's are about, when you get 100 posts, try the Wanted section, or watch out on ebay.

regarding the Gosport Mk I

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20508-hurricane-norwegian-campaign-and-rn-air-station-gosport-doubts/

2) Hurricane Mk I P3118 M Royal Navy Air Station Gosport 1940

I only have a profile of this aircraft.

Unfortunately I do not have any picture of these aircraft or similar with that type of scheme colour camouflage to confirm if the profiles are ok.

Yes to the second, with the qualification that the colour could well have been Sky at this stage, not Sky Grey. The aircraft is known from a photograph.

I suspect the other aircraft was in an Model Aircraft Monthly article some time ago. Memory says it was in 880 Sq at the time, so would be in Scheme S.1E with Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey. However, if it was regarded as a training aircraft it could have retained Dark Green and Dark Earth: as it has apparently been repainted with Sky (Grey?) sides this is perhaps unlikely.

Memory says that Ian Gazeley suggests Sky not Sky Grey, given the date. Perhaps it will be in Stuart Lloyd's second book on FAA camouflage and markings.

I have never seen the photo, I don't know of it being published anywhere.

Anyone actually seen this or know if has been published?

a final point.

I did just notice Aeromaster on the sheet pictured above the Vindex Hurricane profile drawing does show the cut corner on UC door , but it not mentioned in the instructions. They get the rocket rails wrong though.

see http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234940217-sea-hurricane-hms-vindex-with-rocketsyour-picture-question/

[politicni komisar]

Deleted. Not the buy and sell area.

[Graham Boak]

I've just picked on the point about the metal blades. These were required on the Mk.I because of the aft cg position, but the DH examples not the metal Rotol, surely because the metal Rotol used magnesium with its vulnerability to salt water. The Mk.II's longer nose is usually regarded as having fixed this problem but perhaps metal blades were still considered necessary with the arrester hook? It might be worth taking a look at the photos of Mk.IIb/Mk.XIIb SHs which belly-landed during Torch and see if there is any hint there.

I've had a look through Bruce Strait's "Rotol" but it isn't directly helpful. Apparently the magnesium blades were abandoned in 1942 after problems on the Halifax, and studies on hollow steel blades (as in the US) was abandoned at much the same time. There is mention of an order for duralumin blades for the Tempest - cg problems again, and this seems to date from the transfer of metal blade production to Ossett from August 1943, this being the first time Rotol received "substantial allocations of duralumin". Although not stated so directly, that does leave the door open for small-scale production of Duralumin blades before that, and a demand for Sea Hurricane Mk.IIs might be appropriate?

However, whereas the two Inskip aircraft appear to have bent tips, Nicki's looks rather less convincing...

EDIT: However, beware of over-analysis! Looking at P3351 here http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?135055-Hawker-Hurricane-P3351-on-its-nose-in-France, it seems that wooden props do bend. Look down the thread for the views of it being lifted.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Graham Boak